Donald Trump Says Apple Won't Be Granted Tariff Relief on Mac Pro Parts Made in China: 'Make Them in The USA, No Tariffs!'

[Aoligei]

Again, the tariffs in question weren't just about immigration which you focused on. They are also about the drugs/fentanyl problem, potentially trying to protect U.S. industries, address trade imbalances, etc. As I said, multifaceted.

All Trump know is tariffs, he think tariffs alone will sloes drug/fentanyl problem. The tariffs does nothing to protect U.S. industries, that ship has sailed long time ago. All he does is disrupting existing supply chain, in hope some will return to US. He tried this on his first term, there is zero success.


Trade imbalance is even more funnier. The whole US is built on trade deficit which allow other countries to hold on US dollar as its reverse. The whole reason that US can sustain itself this long is because US dollar is being used widely and its status as reserve currency around the world. The moment you rip this apart, US dollar loss ground, your government won't last long.

 

[webkit]

Again, I already said this clearly. I don't think they are about one thing. And I agree with your claim that they are multifaceted.

Yep. Which leads me to the question - What exactly do you disagree with that I actually said?

Exactly. Which is why I clearly and repeatedly made a distinction between what tariffs might be used for and what 45/47 has used them for.

You are the one that seemed to have issues with my comments on how tariffs can be used or are potentially used. If you agree that they can be multifaceted, potential outcomes/responses can vary, etc. then we are in agreement there.

At this point (and not surprising to me) the proposed tariffs against Canada and Mexico are on hold for now as the leaders of both countries have agreed to concessions. Time will tell how it all actually plays out.

 

[webkit]

All at the expense of taxing Americans. Interestingly, some areas that were solid MAGA all of a sudden are seeing the impact on them and their companies and asking to be left off of the tariffs or worried what happens when Canada retaliates.

If you want to call it that. Tariffs have been used by many U.S. presidents. There are also other government actions/policies that can also raise prices or "tax Americans" including corporate taxes, sales taxes, gas guzzler taxes, minimum wages, safety, environmental, antitrust, price or other business regulations. That doesn’t mean they can’t be beneficial or worthwhile to have.

All of a sudden those promises are coming back to haunt them.

At this point, the proposed tariffs against Mexico and Canada are now on hold for at least 30 days as the leaders of both countries have made concessions. They may never need to be implemented. Time will tell how it all actually plays out.

 

[webkit]

All Trump know is tariffs, he think tariffs alone will sloes drug/fentanyl problem. The tariffs does nothing to protect U.S. industries, that ship has sailed long time ago. All he does is disrupting existing supply chain, in hope some will return to US. He tried this on his first term, there is zero success.

I wouldn’t say that. Trump has proposed a variety of things to try to deal with the fentanyl problem including stricter penalties for drug dealers and trafficking, increased law enforcement and surveillance, military engagement, seeking better detection technology, etc.

Tariffs, or the threat of tariffs, are far from just a Trump thing. Many U.S. presidents have used tariffs. Many non-U.S. countries have too.

 

[avz]

The whole reason that US can sustain itself this long is because US dollar is being used widely and its status as reserve currency around the world. The moment you rip this apart, US dollar loss ground, your government won't last long.

This is only a half-truth.

According to the IMF in 2024 US economy accounts for only 15% of the global economy, in 1944 this number was 44%. What does it tell us?

US actually paid a very high price for its currency to have a reserve status and at this stage the only way to continue to sustain Bretton Woods institutions is for US citizens to agree to live on $5 a day in order to prevent the drop of US share in global economy from current 15% down to 5% or even lower.

So the task that Trump is facing is to abolish Bretton Woods institutions before they abolish the middle class in US. As long as US dollar is more valuable outside of the US, manufacturing in US will always be at a huge loss.

 

[jlc1978]

If you want to call it that. Tariffs have been used by many U.S. presidents. There are also other government actions/policies that can also raise prices or "tax Americans" including corporate taxes, sales taxes, gas guzzler taxes, minimum wages, safety, environmental, antitrust, price or other business regulations. That doesn’t mean they can’t be beneficial or worthwhile to have.

The issue is not that other things also raise prices or have tehir place in a economic system, it's that tariffs applied broadly as Trump proposed simply raise prices across the board, invite retaliation and are at a high risk of causing a recession.

A country dumping products, tariffs are a way of stopping that. Raising prices 25% across the board? Not so good.

At this point, the proposed tariffs against Mexico and Canada are now on hold for at least 30 days as the leaders of both countries have made concessions. They may never need to be implemented. Time will tell how it all actually plays out.

And teh US made concessions to Mexico as well, especially in teh enforcement of gun control laws.

I suspect when Trump saw Canada would not fold, and started removing US products from tehir shelves, canceled contracts with US companies, and threatened to sell import goods such as aluminum elsewhere, he backed off pretty quickly.

I think as countries realize he will fold if you punch back, we'll see more of that; even if he claims a win.

The real issue, for me, is why pick fights with friends? All that does is make your real threats more powerful.

 

[bcortens]

This is only a half-truth.

According to the IMF in 2024 US economy accounts for only 15% of the global economy, in 1944 this number was 44%. What does it tell us?

US actually paid a very high price for its currency to have a reserve status and at this stage the only way to continue to sustain Bretton Woods institutions is for US citizens to agree to live on $5 a day in order to prevent the drop of US share in global economy from current 15% down to 5% or even lower.

So the task that Trump is facing is to abolish Bretton Woods institutions before they abolish the middle class in US. As long as US dollar is more valuable outside of the US, manufacturing in US will always be at a huge loss.

Minor quibble, the idea that we should compare the size of the US relative to the rest of the world at a time when the world was embroiled in a war that wiped out whole cities while the US was largely unaffected is not a good comparison.

 

[avz]

Minor quibble, the idea that we should compare the size of the US relative to the rest of the world at a time when the world was embroiled in a war that wiped out whole cities while the US was largely unaffected is not a good comparison.

When you think about it, your fair point proves even more that Bretton Woods system is not a viable choice for the US as right now the situation is in reverse to the one that was back in 1944. US is not "destroyed" per se but it has very little manufacturing left and its infrastructure requires more than a facelift.

Also the current 15% mostly include the blown up capitalization of the tech companies which can blow up any moment as with the recent AI "shock" in the stock market.

 

[webkit]

The issue is not that other things also raise prices or have tehir place in a economic system, it's that tariffs applied broadly as Trump proposed simply raise prices across the board, invite retaliation and are at a high risk of causing a recession.

A country dumping products, tariffs are a way of stopping that. Raising prices 25% across the board? Not so good.

That's a reason they call them trade wars. The U.S. has had tariff/trade wars with various countries in the past, China being the most notable of late and yet retailers and consumers continue to buy more and more goods from China. Manufacturers, retailers and consumers are obviously the ones driving the supply and/or demand for China goods and largely due to cost/price factors.

And teh US made concessions to Mexico as well, especially in teh enforcement of gun control laws.

Yes, which is part of a negotiation process.

I suspect when Trump saw Canada would not fold, and started removing US products from tehir shelves, canceled contracts with US companies, and threatened to sell import goods such as aluminum elsewhere, he backed off pretty quickly.

I think as countries realize he will fold if you punch back, we'll see more of that; even if he claims a win.

Given how quickly Trudeau rushed down to Mar-a-Lago at the end of November after Trump announced plans to sign executive orders after he took office regarding tariffs in response to illegal immigration, fentanyl, and drug trafficking issues, I suspect Trump assumed Canada would "fold."

Time will tell how all of this actually plays out.

The real issue, for me, is why pick fights with friends? All that does is make your real threats more powerful.

Prior to CUSFTA and NAFTA, the U.S., Canada and Mexico had plenty of trade disputes. Are you suggesting these countries weren't "friends" before the late 1980s and 1990s?

 

[jlc1978]

Given how quickly Trudeau rushed down to Mar-a-Lago at the end of November after Trump announced plans to sign executive orders after he took office regarding tariffs in response to illegal immigration, fentanyl, and drug trafficking issues, I suspect Trump assumed Canada would "fold."

Trudeau no doubt wants to avoid a trade war since it would not benefit either country. Canada also announced some pretty serious retaliation, which no doubt surprised Trump and gave him pause.

As for illegal immigration, that from Canada is a rounding area, as is fentanyl. Even at the southern border, most of it comes through legal points of entry and is often smuggled by US citizens. Threats and theater isn't solving these very real problems. Trump, IMHO, is more about show than substance, which is grate for making political points but doesn't really change things. Unfortunately, he is not unique in that regards as it is a disease that afflicts politicians of all stripes.

Time will tell how all of this actually plays out.

Certainly.

Prior to CUSFTA and NAFTA, the U.S., Canada and Mexico had plenty of trade disputes. Are you suggesting these countries weren't "friends" before the late 1980s and 1990s?

There's a difference between trade disputes and picking fights you need not have just to look tough. Once people realize you will fold if pushed back, they become less intimidated and started hitting back.

The big lesson for the EU in this is when Trump starts making threats, hit back at places that will hurt him politically.; you just need to pick the right targets. Let him claim a win as long as as you get what you want.

Edit: Minor typos

 

[webkit]

Trudeau no doubt wants to avoid a trade war since it would not benefit either country. Canada also announced some pretty serious retaliation, which no doubt surprised Trump and gave him pause.

As for illegal immigration, that from Canada is a rounding area, as is fentanyl. Even at the southern border, most of it comes through legal points of entry and is often smuggled by US citizens. Threats and theater isn't solving these very real problems. Trump, IMHO, is more about show than substance, which is grate for making political points but doesn't really change things. Unfortunately, he is not unique in that regards as it is a disease that afflicts politicians of all stripes.

Within just a few days after Trump posting on social media in late November that after taking office he would sign executive orders putting 25% tariffs on goods from Canada and Mexico to compel them to address illegal immigration and drug trafficking issues at the borders, Trudeau flew down to Mar-a-Lago. This is why I suspect Trump assumed Trudeau would "fold." He seems to view Trudeau as a weak leader anyway.

As part of the ongoing negotiations, Canada has agreed to things like a $1.3 billion border enhancement plan including new helicopters, technology, enforcement, and personnel, appointing a fentanyl czar, designating cartels and gangs as terrorist organizations, allocating $200 million for intelligence-gathering related to fentanyl and the drug trade, establishing a Joint Strike Force to tackle organized crime, fentanyl trafficking, and money laundering, etc. All related to things Trump stated in November that the proposed tariffs were meant to compel Canada to address.

Anti-Trump people and media will try to argue that Trump "folded" while pro-Trump people and media will try to argue that Trudeau "folded." The reality may be more in the middle (part of a negotiation process) but it's still too early to conclude much of anything as this is still a work in progress. For example, although there is a 30 day pause, tariffs are still a possibility.

The hope everyone should have is that the various things Canada has agreed to do in response to the tariff threat will help with the immigration and drug problem at the border. Same with Mexico.

There's a difference between trade disputes and picking fights you need not have just to look tough. Once people realize you will fold if pushed back, they become less intimidated and started hitting back.

The big lesson for the EU in this is when Trump starts making threats, hit back at places that will hurt him politically.; you just need to pick the right targets. Let him claim a win as long as as you get what you want.

Edit: Minor typos

Some viewed trade disputes from decades ago as picking fights as well and yet the U.S., Canada and Mexico were still "friends." Even friends fight sometimes.

 

[bcortens]

Within just a few days after Trump posting on social media in late November that after taking office he would sign executive orders putting 25% tariffs on goods from Canada and Mexico to compel them to address illegal immigration and drug trafficking issues at the borders, Trudeau flew down to Mar-a-Lago. This is why I suspect Trump assumed Trudeau would "fold." He seems to view Trudeau as a weak leader anyway.

As part of the ongoing negotiations, Canada has agreed to things like a $1.3 billion border enhancement plan including new helicopters, technology, enforcement, and personnel, appointing a fentanyl czar, designating cartels and gangs as terrorist organizations, allocating $200 million for intelligence-gathering related to fentanyl and the drug trade, establishing a Joint Strike Force to tackle organized crime, fentanyl trafficking, and money laundering, etc. All related to things Trump stated in November that the proposed tariffs were meant to compel Canada to address.

W.R.T. Canada:

Most of these things were already announced prior to the EO on tariffs.

The only new things are:
Fentanyl Czar
Terrorist designation for gangs and cartels
Another 200 million for intelligence gathering

None of that required the EO on tariffs. None of it.

Let's assume that it was the tariff threat in November that got the original 1.3 Billion program approved. Let's assume that it would not have happened otherwise.

Even if that is true, the tariff EO is still nonsensical because it escalates three minor changes to the existing plan to the level of economic emergency.
This is not a sane way to maintain stable economic partnerships and is, in fact, just begging for China to step up and offer itself as a more stable and reliable partner. (I don't want this and view China as unstable and unreliable as well)

Trump spent the days leading up to the EO on tariffs making one claim after another. Him backing off (even if only for a month) after getting a few new things added to an existing program is not a sign of a master negotiator, its the sign of an unhinged and unreliable negotiator. Canadian officials were in and out of Washington trying to get him to tell them what he wanted for weeks, he refused and even the day of said there was "nothing" that Canada could do to avoid tariffs.

Anti-Trump people and media will try to argue that Trump "folded" while pro-Trump people and media will try to argue that Trudeau "folded." The reality may be more in the middle (part of a negotiation process) but it's still too early to conclude much of anything as this is still a work in progress. For example, although there is a 30 day pause, tariffs are still a possibility.

The hope everyone should have is that the various things Canada has agreed to do in response to the tariff threat will help with the immigration and drug problem at the border. Same with Mexico.

I actually doubt we will see much change on the Canada->US flow because the amount is so close to zero (compared to the total fentanyl flow into the US). Personally I hope (as a Canadian) that these increased border measures help catch more of the guns and drugs that flow up into Canada in much larger amounts than flow the other direction.

Some viewed trade disputes from decades ago as picking fights as well and yet the U.S., Canada and Mexico were still "friends." Even friends fight sometimes.

Sure, but usually disputes don't get escalated by one side refusing to engage in negotiation and claiming there is "nothing" the other side can do (except allow themselves to be annexed which is a ridiculous notion).

 

[turbineseaplane]

This one cracked me up, on this topic of the tariffs...

 

[I7guy]

The brilliance of Don's genius is so bright that I need some sunglasses

View attachment 2478685

And this one below ... Ford is a Conservative!

View attachment 2478687

Good. I love it when the trees are shaken.

 

[webkit]

W.R.T. Canada:

Most of these things were already announced prior to the EO on tariffs.

The only new things are:
Fentanyl Czar
Terrorist designation for gangs and cartels
Another 200 million for intelligence gathering

None of that required the EO on tariffs. None of it.

Let's assume that it was the tariff threat in November that got the original 1.3 Billion program approved. Let's assume that it would not have happened otherwise.

Even if that is true, the tariff EO is still nonsensical because it escalates three minor changes to the existing plan to the level of economic emergency.
This is not a sane way to maintain stable economic partnerships and is, in fact, just begging for China to step up and offer itself as a more stable and reliable partner. (I don't want this and view China as unstable and unreliable as well)

Trump spent the days leading up to the EO on tariffs making one claim after another. Him backing off (even if only for a month) after getting a few new things added to an existing program is not a sign of a master negotiator, its the sign of an unhinged and unreliable negotiator. Canadian officials were in and out of Washington trying to get him to tell them what he wanted for weeks, he refused and even the day of said there was "nothing" that Canada could do to avoid tariffs.

Of course some of those things had already been announced because the signing of the executive orders on Saturday were not when the tariff threat and response/negotiations had begun. It goes back to at least November when Trump posted about plans for executive orders putting 25% tariffs on goods from Canada and Mexico to compel them to address illegal immigration and drug trafficking issues at the borders, etc. While additional concessions offered after Saturday may have helped, this was not just some sort of two or three day process.

I actually doubt we will see much change on the Canada->US flow because the amount is so close to zero (compared to the total fentanyl flow into the US). Personally I hope (as a Canadian) that these increased border measures help catch more of the guns and drugs that flow up into Canada in much larger amounts than flow the other direction.

Hopefully the various things Canada has agreed to do in response to the tariff threat (and whatever else may be agreed going forward) will help with the immigration and drug problem at the border. Same with Mexico.

Sure, but usually disputes don't get escalated by one side refusing to engage in negotiation and claiming there is "nothing" the other side can do (except allow themselves to be annexed which is a ridiculous notion).

So, you are saying Canada and Mexico simply caved/folded and there were/are no negotiations involved?

 

[bcortens]

Of course some of those things had already been proposed/announced because the signing of the executive orders on Saturday were not when the tariff threat and response/negotiations had begun. It goes back to at least November when Trump posted about plans for executive orders putting 25% tariffs on goods from Canada and Mexico to compel them to address illegal immigration and drug trafficking issues at the borders, etc. While additional concessions offered after Saturday may have helped, this was not just some sort of two or three day process.

My point is that trump didn't need an EO on tariffs to accomplish anything! The mere threat got the process going. Actually following through on it without stating what he wanted that was different and refusing a properly negotiation is just pointless chaos.
The Canadian plan was already started, there are parts of the plan already operational.

You've also ignored the fact that trump said there was "nothing" Canada could do, and yet apparently there was something Canada could do... all he had to do was pick up the phone.

Hopefully the various things Canada has agreed to do in response to the tariff threat (and whatever else may be agreed going forward) will help with the immigration and drug problem at the border. Same with Mexico.

The immigration and drug problem on the Canada border is mostly imaginary:

Illegal Immigration and Fentanyl at the U.S. Northern and Southwest Borders - FactCheck.org

In recent remarks to the press, President Donald Trump restated his intention to impose 25% tariffs on U.S. imports from Mexico and Canada as early as Feb. 1. His reasoning: "vast" illegal immigration and "massive" amounts of fentanyl coming to the U.S. from those countries. But Trump drew a...

www.factcheck.org

The northern border isn't an issue, its a rounding error.

Furthermore, countries are responsible for people coming into them not leaving. Canada is supposed to make sure no one enters into Canada from the US and the US is supposed to catch people coming the other way.

So, you are saying Canada and Mexico simply caved/folded and there were/are no negotiations involved?

Again, we have statements made by people from both Canada and Mexico that they were trying to negotiate with Trump and he wasn't taking their calls. Wasn't telling them what he wanted. Made wildly different claims and demands depending on the date and time.
This isn't negotiation if what you want are a few changes to an existing proposal.

Canada and Mexico caved to the tariffs only in the same way Trump caved to the tariffs. Almost nothing new is happening. He gets to spin it as a win that he looked tough while alienating allies and angering entire nations. He is burning goodwill at a remarkable rate.

This way of negotiating, (don't talk to the other person and make random demands) and then only talk after the fact is the way to madness. It means no one will ever trust you again. Why should anyone believe any trade deal he signs if he will rip them up on a whim? What incentive do other countries have to give concessions to US interests when they have no guarantee that those deals will be worth the paper they are written on?

 

[webkit]

My point is that trump didn't need an EO on tariffs to accomplish anything! The mere threat got the process going. Actually following through on it without stating what he wanted that was different and refusing a properly negotiation is just pointless chaos.
The Canadian plan was already started, there are parts of the plan already operational.

The executive orders provided specific details in writing and put Trump in the position to execute on the tariffs under the IEEPA and NEA. It was also a way to further show (or give the impression anyway) he was serious by providing a specific date in writing to try to encourage meaningful final/additional concession proposals or plans.

You've also ignored the fact that trump said there was "nothing" Canada could do, and yet apparently there was something Canada could do... all he had to do was pick up the phone.

I'm not ignoring that. There was nothing Canada could do to prevent Trump from signing the executive orders which is precisely what he did on Saturday.

The immigration and drug problem on the Canada border is mostly imaginary:
The northern border isn't an issue, its a rounding error.

Furthermore, countries are responsible for people coming into them not leaving. Canada is supposed to make sure no one enters into Canada from the US and the US is supposed to catch people coming the other way.

Again, we have statements made by people from both Canada and Mexico that they were trying to negotiate with Trump and he wasn't taking their calls. Wasn't telling them what he wanted. Made wildly different claims and demands depending on the date and time.
This isn't negotiation if what you want are a few changes to an existing proposal.

Canada and Mexico caved to the tariffs only in the same way Trump caved to the tariffs. Almost nothing new is happening. He gets to spin it as a win that he looked tough while alienating allies and angering entire nations. He is burning goodwill at a remarkable rate.

This way of negotiating, (don't talk to the other person and make random demands) and then only talk after the fact is the way to madness. It means no one will ever trust you again. Why should anyone believe any trade deal he signs if he will rip them up on a whim? What incentive do other countries have to give concessions to US interests when they have no guarantee that those deals will be worth the paper they are written on?

There had been on and off talks, some of which lead to a few of the concessions pre-EO. Other concessions came post-EO. If not for signing the EO, some of concessions may not have happened. Time will tell how all of this plays out.

 

[bcortens]

The executive orders provided specific details in writing and put Trump in the position to execute on the tariffs under the IEEPA and NEA. It was also a way to further show (or give the impression anyway) he was serious by providing a specific date in writing to try to encourage meaningful final/additional concession proposals or plans.

Again, if what he wants is meaningful negotiation, he can start by talking to those he claims he wants to negotiate with.

What actions by Canada (enacting this expansion of border patrol, proposing joint task force, etc...) were not demonstrating a serious response and an unwillingness to come to the table? Helicopters have already been deployed, the money is already flowing...

Nothing in public communication from any of Canada's leaders suggests that there was meaningful movement or change in the border program prior to the phone calls between Trump and Trudeau.

I'm not ignoring that. There was nothing Canada could do to prevent Trump from signing the executive orders which is precisely what he did on Saturday.

But it does appear that there was something to avoid immediate tariffs.

If the tariffs are about fentanyl then the EO wasn't needed and does nothing but hang a sword over the neck of trade to no good purpose. If he wants to threaten tariffs if some specific measures aren't met fine, but that isn't what he did.

There had been on and off talks, some of which lead to a few of the concessions pre-EO. Other concessions came post-EO. If not for signing the EO, some of concessions may not have happened. Time will tell how all of this plays out.

Unless you have proof that the Prime Minister of Canada is lying when he says he hadn't talked to Trump, and boy did he look uncomfortable admitting that when asked, then you are just theory crafting to suit the narrative that this was a necessary step.

There is no good explanation for this, Canadians are furious, this is a betrayal of an ally to no good end.

 

[jlc1978]

Even if that is true, the tariff EO is still nonsensical because it escalates three minor changes to the existing plan to the level of economic emergency.

Please, don't bring rationality to an internet argument.

I spend a lot of time in MAGA land and the sad part is people have gone all in on Trump, and even when things don't work out believe it's not his fault but Biden's or Obama's; I've stopped presenting facts because they simply do not believe them. Unless it's Fox it in't true.

This is not a sane way to maintain stable economic partnerships and is, in fact, just begging for China to step up and offer itself as a more stable and reliable partner. (I don't want this and view China as unstable and unreliable as well)

They already are selling themselves as a reliable partner who will not meddle in your internal affairs, just take our money. When I was working in Africa the Chinese were building a lot of stuff, with the locals complaining they were building but using all tehir own labor and not employing or training locals.

I actually doubt we will see much change on the Canada->US flow because the amount is so close to zero (compared to the total fentanyl flow into the US). Personally I hope (as a Canadian) that these increased border measures help catch more of the guns and drugs that flow up into Canada in much larger amounts than flow the other direction.

That's a good point. Canadian fentanyl to the US is a rounding error, but guns are a problem at both borders. It would not surprise me if a significant portion of drugs in Canada came via the US.

Hopefully the various things Canada has agreed to do in response to the tariff threat (and whatever else may be agreed going forward) will help with the immigration and drug problem at the border. Same with Mexico.

I doubt it will have much impact no matter what Trump claims. Migration is an economic problem, and as long as there are jobs people will come. If you severely punished employees, the jobs would dry up but no administration will do that because it would bean economic disaster; and states that cracked down had farmers crying the crops will rot.

Drugs are an economic problem as well, as long as there is demand people will take risks to make money. For the US, the border is not the issue as much as US citizens smuggling drugs via legal points of entry; which makes sense because they can easily cross the border without being suspected of trafficking.

 

[webkit]

Again, if what he wants is meaningful negotiation, he can start by talking to those he claims he wants to negotiate with.

What actions by Canada (enacting this expansion of border patrol, proposing joint task force, etc...) were not demonstrating a serious response and an unwillingness to come to the table? Helicopters have already been deployed, the money is already flowing...

Nothing in public communication from any of Canada's leaders suggests that there was meaningful movement or change in the border program prior to the phone calls between Trump and Trudeau.

Trump met with Trudeau as far as back as November 29th at Mar-a-Lago. He explained the various things he was looking for (e.g., addressing the immigration and drug issues) and it was up to Canada (and Mexico) to decide what they were willing/able to offer and go from there.

To put a little more pressure on the "deal", he signed the EO on Saturday as a way to try to convince Canada and/or Mexico to bring their best and final offer (so-to-speak) before the tariffs were to go into effect. This pressure or urgency tactic is the kind of thing a salesperson (or "dealmaker") might do. The result was calls on Sunday/Monday with additional concessions.

But it does appear that there was something to avoid immediate tariffs.

If the tariffs are about fentanyl then the EO wasn't needed and does nothing but hang a sword over the neck of trade to no good purpose. If he wants to threaten tariffs if some specific measures aren't met fine, but that isn't what he did.

As I explained above, there was nothing that would avoid him signing the executive orders which he likely felt added additional pressure to make a meaningful deal, at least in the short term, happen.

Unless you have proof that the Prime Minister of Canada is lying when he says he hadn't talked to Trump, and boy did he look uncomfortable admitting that when asked, then you are just theory crafting to suit the narrative that this was a necessary step.

There is no good explanation for this, Canadians are furious, this is a betrayal of an ally to no good end.

Some Canadians are furious, others much less so. Like most things today, especially in politics, it's not as cut and dried as some people think or the biased media tries to convince them.

Additionally, we are talking about politicians here who are not necessarily going to be the most straightforward and honest anyway. How do you know a politician is lying? Their lips are moving. Obviously, a joke but sadly too often true.

 

[Aoligei]

This is only a half-truth.

According to the IMF in 2024 US economy accounts for only 15% of the global economy, in 1944 this number was 44%. What does it tell us?

US actually paid a very high price for its currency to have a reserve status and at this stage the only way to continue to sustain Bretton Woods institutions is for US citizens to agree to live on $5 a day in order to prevent the drop of US share in global economy from current 15% down to 5% or even lower.

So the task that Trump is facing is to abolish Bretton Woods institutions before they abolish the middle class in US. As long as US dollar is more valuable outside of the US, manufacturing in US will always be at a huge loss.

In past 80 years, US and western nations are starting shifting away from manufacturing to higher margin items (such as patents, dominance on high-tech and financial markets).

Setting US as world reserve currency, US is getting more than it has lost. US gets third world country making cheap staffs and in turn lower prices. The middle-class benefited from this arrangement. And third world country, such as Japan, Korea, China etc. were also benefited from such.

Unless you guys wants go back to high price, lower competition, lower wages, then be all means. All Trump does is trying to reverse the progress made in past 8 decade. Even than, US manufacturing won't be return as much as you would hope for. It take a lot more than just tariffs and supply chain doesn't come back over night.

 

[Aoligei]

Trump met with Trudeau as far as back as November 29th at Mar-a-Lago. He explained the various things he was looking for (e.g., addressing the immigration and drug issues) and it was up to Canada (and Mexico) to decide what they were willing/able to offer and go from there.

To put a little more pressure on the "deal", he signed the EO on Saturday as a way to try to convince Canada and/or Mexico to bring their best and final offer (so-to-speak) before the tariffs were to go into effect. This pressure or urgency tactic is the kind of thing a salesperson (or "dealmaker") might do. The result was calls on Sunday/Monday with additional concessions.

I don't think the whole thing is just about drugs and immigration issue, it is trump is creating a BS problem then pressuring Canada, Mexico to cave in.

So far, Trump only paused the tariff, he did not cancel it. You really think 10,000 troops alone more than 3000km border is sufficient enough to stop fentanyl and illegal immigrate coming to US? You really think lots of drugs and illegal immigration comes from Canada?

Trump is creating some BS problem and pressuring Canada and Mexico to test their limits. Once Canada and Mexico caves in, you will ask for more.
Trump is never trust worthy person, and frankly Canada should not trust him on anything.

Some Canadians are furious, others much less so. Like most things today, especially in politics, it's not as cut and dried as some people think or the biased media tries to convince them.

Additionally, we are talking about politicians here who are not necessarily going to be the most straightforward and honest anyway. How do you know a politician is lying? Their lips are moving. Obviously, a joke but sadly too often true.

The damage has already done, there is already talks about diversifying away from US. I am not planning travel to US when Trump is in the office. I am not purchasing any new Apple products in next four years. I am going to buy local, Canadian products rather than things from US.

I maybe a small person, but if there is enough of people in Canada boycotting US products, we maybe success as a country.

AND Canada will NEVER be 51st of the United State. Trump can *** himself.

 

[avz]

In past 80 years, US and western nations are starting shifting away from manufacturing to higher margin items (such as patents, dominance on high-tech and financial markets).

Setting US as world reserve currency, US is getting more than it has lost.

What you don't seem to understand is that this is a finite process. It has nothing to do with the US, the same thing would have happened to any other country.

Sanctions and tariffs are designed to abolish WTO as a Bretton Woods institution. The only way to sustain Bretton Woods institutions is to reduce living standards in US by 40-50% and yes you can continue "dominance" in financial markets, patents and high-tech for even longer.

 

[webkit]

I don't think the whole thing is just about drugs and immigration issue, it is trump is creating a BS problem then pressuring Canada, Mexico to cave in.

So far, Trump only paused the tariff, he did not cancel it. You really think 10,000 troops alone more than 3000km border is sufficient enough to stop fentanyl and illegal immigrate coming to US? You really think lots of drugs and illegal immigration comes from Canada?

Trump is creating some BS problem and pressuring Canada and Mexico to test their limits. Once Canada and Mexico caves in, you will ask for more.
Trump is never trust worthy person, and frankly Canada should not trust him on anything.



The damage has already done, there is already talks about diversifying away from US. I am not planning travel to US when Trump is in the office. I am not purchasing any new Apple products in next four years. I am going to buy local, Canadian products rather than things from US.

I maybe a small person, but if there is enough of people in Canada boycotting US products, we maybe success as a country.

Canada has agreed to things like a $1.3 billion border enhancement plan including new helicopters, technology, enforcement, and personnel, appointing a fentanyl czar, designating cartels and gangs as terrorist organizations, allocating $200 million for intelligence-gathering related to fentanyl and the drug trade, establishing a Joint Strike Force to tackle organized crime, fentanyl trafficking, and money laundering, etc.

Mexico has agreed to send 10,000 troops to the border to deal with immigration, security, and fentanyl issues. The U.S. agreed to address the issue of gun trafficking to Mexico.

Perhaps even more importantly to those opposed to tariffs, it also resulted in at least a 30 day pause on tariffs.

How meaningful these things are/will be remains to be seen. The hope everyone should have is that these various things will help with the immigration, drug and gun problems at the borders. Even if relatively little comes from it, I do not believe that any damage has been done in the bigger, longer term picture despite how some like to try to paint it.

AND Canada will NEVER be 51st of the United State. Trump can *** himself.

I agree it won't happen but the idea is hardly just a Trump thing. Discussions, debates, articles, polls, etc. about Canada becoming the "51st state" have been around for ages.

Below is just one of MANY examples of articles on the topic. This one happens to be by The Canadian Press back in 1989 but there have been many others decades before and since.

 

[bcortens]

Canada has agreed to things like a $1.3 billion border enhancement plan including new helicopters, technology, enforcement, and personnel, appointing a fentanyl czar, designating cartels and gangs as terrorist organizations, allocating $200 million for intelligence-gathering related to fentanyl and the drug trade, establishing a Joint Strike Force to tackle organized crime, fentanyl trafficking, and money laundering, etc.

Mexico has agreed to send 10,000 troops to the border to deal with immigration, security, and fentanyl issues. The U.S. agreed to address the issue of gun trafficking to Mexico.

Perhaps even more importantly to those opposed to tariffs, it also resulted in at least a 30 day pause on tariffs.

How meaningful these things are/will be remains to be seen. The hope everyone should have is that these various things will help with the immigration, drug and gun problems at the borders. Even if relatively little comes from it, I do not believe that any damage has been done in the bigger, longer term picture despite how some like to try to paint it.

You continue to post the theorycrafted speculation that the EO did anything that the mere threat of tariffs did not. It is nothing but speculation that the EO did anything to move these plans along.

I agree it won't happen but the idea is hardly just a Trump thing. Discussions, debates, articles, polls, etc. about Canada becoming the "51st state" have been around for ages.

Below is just one of MANY examples of articles on the topic. This one happens to be by The Canadian Press back in 1989 but there have been many others decades before and since.

View attachment 2479445

The rules set up post WW2 that established that borders may not move by force has been one of the primary reasons for the long peace.
It is not up to Americans anyway, it is up to Canadians, it's like saying most British people think America should become part of Britain again. Their opinion wouldn't matter to Americans and it shouldn't. Americans fought a war over self determination for gods sake.

Trump's trade actions against China have already pushed them closer to Russia, strengthening Russia and weakening the US. Will they stay aligned with Russia in the long term? I doubt it, but in the short term this looks like an own goal by Trump.