Dvorak on iPhone: Send Apple Feedback

[ljl]

Awww Common!

Ok. This topic has finally got me to register. I’ve read people’s views with great interest, because for me, the iPhone not having Dvorak has already been a deal breaker.

I’ve touch typed Dvorak for 14 years. I touch typed QWERTY for only a few, but I was subject to RSI which was the main reason for me switching. I wasn’t deterred from switching because Dvorak WAS everywhere. I’ve never even considered buying a hardwired Dvorak keyboard. Dvorak users touch type. And every OS (until the iPhone) has it as an option. Apple does this particularly well as it has the Dvorak keyboard with QWERTY command option. Thus cut, copy, paste etc are all the same as QWERTY, which is nice.

I have no bias for Dvorak. I don’t care in the slightest if others learn it or not. And I’m puzzled at the seeming opposition, as I figured QWERTY users would care even less than me.

Someone said that all Dvorak users also know the QWERTY. Kinda true. But I can no longer touch type QWERTY. I’d have to look at what I’m doing. I may be able to get 30wpm on QWERTY. But I get in excess of 100wpm on Dvorak because it’s a learned muscle action. I don’t think about it. To illustrate, when was the last time any of us thought about where are feet go when we’re walking? That’s also a learned muscle action. To go back to QWERTY is as frustrating as having to think about learning to walk again – it’s infantile!

The fact the Dvorak users is a minority group is irrelevant. Looking at the list of available language and layouts already available reveals many minority groups. iPhone is not as big in many of those countries as it is in the US.

For the same reasons that I’d like Dvorak, it’d be thoughtful to have Dvorak’s Left Hand and Right Hand layouts as well. I wouldn’t use these. But there are those who only have one hand and have bought hardwired Dvorak L or R keyboards to cope. It’d be nice for them to not have to rethink everything simply to write a message. Apple’s always had good accessibility options. Why stop now?

Jailbreaking doesn’t cut it either. As I understand it, Jailbreaking cannot incorporate Apple’s auto correction – as it is based on the layout of the keys. An incredibly clever system (cudos Apple), but it does make the making of other layouts a bigger job.

I feel that Dvorak’s superiority over QWERTY would be significantly more obvious on the iPhone than on a normal computer keyboard. The left right action would lend itself very well to two finger typists. But you know what is funny. Watch a QWERTY touch typist going flat out. Focus on his/her right hand index and middle fingers. These (arguably the two strongest of all eight fingers for right handers) have to dodge J and K most of the time. These are the 4th and 5th least used letters in English. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency

I am sure that if you could have an QWERTY touchtypist verses a Dvorak touchtypist, each with an iPhone that incorporates the Apple intelligences – not jailbroken, the Dvorak user would win speed hands down. But that is irrelevant. It is not the maximum possible speed that is relevant. It is what’s already known by the user. It’s ironic that one can’t touch type on a touch device, but one’s fingers could already know the correct direction to go. Much less effort required.

Rant over. Hope there’s a few new thoughts there for any. And yes I’ve written to Apple.

And by the way ThomasJL, fantastically funny comic. Thanks for the link!

 

[Sunnzy]

To ljl, good rant, couldn't agree more.

 

[superxero3]

Awesome rant, I don't see why this can't simply be an option. I touch-type dvorak on my macbook, and if it was an option for the phone i would NEVER use it, i think QWERTY is much faster for my thumbs, but that is no reason for it to not be an option.

Also, i haven't even thought about that being an accessibility option.

 

[mikes70mustang]

I sorta wonder how and why people use this format. I mean, it isnt useful unless you do tons of typing. And is basically cripples you if you have to use a computer that is qwerty, i.e. bust out a 2 page paper due at the end of a class. Going to dvorak would be the smart thing to do since it is more efficient. And it would make sense b/c no one uses the old typewriters. Theres no little flying letters on metal arms to get tangled anymore. I dont see a big switch ever though.

 

[Sunnzy]

It is not about switch, nor busting out a paper on an iPhone. It is about choice.

 

[TMar]

Well that was an interesting read. I'm sure all the people that complained it wasn't needed would complain if the keyboard came up in random order every time..

 

[ljl]

Faster to learn Dvorak touch typing

Not really relevant to the discussion, but no one seems to have said it...

I found the Dvorak keyboard significantly faster to learn than when I learned QWERTY. The reason is not specifically because it's a more efficient keyboard, but that it is more efficient to learn. That sounds funny. What I mean is this:

QWERTY touch typing programs typically have one do the old:
asas sasa adad dada afaf fafa dsds sdsd fdfd dfdf sfsf fsfs
etc etc

Boooooooooooooooooorrriiiiiiiiiing.

Whereas on Dvorak, in just two lessons I was typing entire stories. I was using a Mavis Beacon program, version of long ago, which taught Dvorak specifically.

Reading (and typing) a good story (or even an average one) was so much more interesting than the old repetition.

Still, (watch me seamlessly make this relevant to the discussion) if you have something learned already, there's not nearly as strong a reason to switch. So if you touch type QWERTY fast - keep at it!

 

[Noumenon]

Antonin Dvorak #9, much better than a keyboard.

 

[iannufc]

Done. Good luck!

 

[akbc]

Done!

Also just finished reading the dvorak zine that you linked, very interesting.

I was aware of other formats of typing, but didn't really had any chance for me to get to know them a little better.

It seems really scientific and stuff, and also, Colemak layout seems cool too.

But I think I'll just stick with my good-old QWERTY, just because I'm used to it. But I'm very interested in learning dvorak or colemak when I have the chance to...

Anyways, I don't get people flaming the OP for suggesting an OPTION to the OS. It's a STANDARD so it SHOULD'VE been included in iPhone OS. And how hard can it be for the programmers to change some codes for the keyboard layout to talk about "ruining the priorities"

If they can do QWERTY and QWERTZ layout, I don't see why they cannot include the dvorak... =_=

Some of the arguments against the addition of dvorak here are unbelievably ignorant...

 

[alFR]

Ok. This topic has finally got me to register. I’ve read people’s views with great interest, because for me, the iPhone not having Dvorak has already been a deal breaker.

I'd support having an optional Dvorak layout on the iPhone for those who want it, as long as it doesn't delay bug fixes or development of other features that would be useful for a larger number of users.

That said, it would appear that most of your argument is based on relative speeds of typing on Dvorak and QWERTY keyboards. I don't see how any of that applies to the iPhone, because (a) you can't touch-type on a flat glass screen and (b) I doubt very much that any of your muscle memory of typing with 2 full hands will translate to typing with 1 finger or 2 thumbs on the iPhone.

 

[danpass]

wow 4 pages haha.


did anyone mention that the QWERTY layout was purposely designed to slow people down? (early mechanical typewriters couldn't keep up with efficient keyboard layouts)


Request sent in to add Dvorak

 

[Ntombi]

Request sent. I can understand why those used to it would prefer it; I type on the iPhone without really looking, because I'm so used to the qwerty layout. Good luck.

 

[22Hz]

Done.

I just converted my MacBook to Dvorak. I figure my brain can handle knowing two layouts.

It just makes sense especially if it is optional. Who knows, maybe one day it will be the norm.

 

[ljl]

I'd support having an optional Dvorak layout on the iPhone for those who want it, as long as it doesn't delay bug fixes or development of other features that would be useful for a larger number of users.

I can't speak for Apple, but typically large computer companies have entire departments set aside for something like 'interface'. So it would be unlikely to delay bug fixes.

That said, it would appear that most of your argument is based on relative speeds of typing on Dvorak and QWERTY keyboards.

Not one bit. It may or may not be that faster speeds are possible with Dvorak, but this is irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't see how any of that applies to the iPhone, because (a) you can't touch-type on a flat glass screen and (b) I doubt very much that any of your muscle memory of typing with 2 full hands will translate to typing with 1 finger or 2 thumbs on the iPhone.

Do you play Piano? And have you seen one of those novelty gift cards that look like a Piano and play notes when touched? While they've been around for decades, no pro pianist can play concerti on them. However they can all play a tune easily - certainly more easily than non-pianists. Quite a novelty gift for the aspiring pianist certainly!

...But suppose you shuffled the sounds of each key of that gift card around. How many pianists could pull out a tune now? Zero. They'd have to think through every key, and make lots of mistakes along the way of the learning curve. A listener probably wouldn't think they have any idea what they're doing. And that's frustrating for the Pianist!

While a gift card is for novelties like that, the iPhone is not. People do serious work on them. I want to be able to do serious work on it without 'listeners' thinking I don't know what I'm doing. I do! But my brain is simply having to work overtime.

 

[Mademan12321]

While I will request it

We need to get on the feedback link to have them fix the 3.0 update FIRST before we start asking for more features.

 

[Chundles]

Victory!

No jailbreak required!

 

[Sunnzy]

Not one bit. It may or may not be that faster speeds are possible with Dvorak, but this is irrelevant to this discussion.

Agree completely. It is not about speed, it is about having a familiar layout. I am learning dvorok at the moment and it would be very helpful to see it on my iPhone as well, not for practise per se but seeing a familiar layout while I am at it. And I bet it is actually faster for dvorak users because it is more familiar.

And besides, this is supposed to be easy to implement on the iPhone, that's what making the screen itself the interface is all about, so you are not locked to some hard layout.

 

[ljl]

Nokia pre-emptive text typing

Here's a thought...

I currently am quite proficient with two keyboards. Dvorak (obviously). But also the Pre-emptive text system that I use on my Nokia 6120. I have had no stimulus to buy a keyboard with a 'slider' QWERTY keyboard. I have actually raced friends of mine with them using such a keyboard while I'm using the Nokia pre-emptive system - and won.

For me, I do wonder if this sort of keypad option would indeed be faster even than Dvorak. The Apple intelligence's would seem to make that improbable, and I think those same intelligence's are critical to a non-physical keyboard, like the iPhone.

Still, it may be a desirable option for some, simply to have a generic keypad option.

(Not me. Again obviously - I want a Dvorak keyboard with the Apple Intelligence!)

 

[HowRandomIsThat]

QWERTY's one benefit

...QWERTY typing tends to degenerate into long one-handed strings of letters, especially strings for the weak left hand. More than 3,000 English words utilize QWERTY’s left hand alone, and about 300 the right hand alone. [/i]

Source: http://www.geocities.com/malibu_malv/curse_qwerty.html

Finally thought of a QWERTY benefit: It teaches us right-handers to be a little more ambidextrous. And I just thought of a second one: "QUERTY" is easier to hunt-and-peck on a QWERTY keyboard.

 

[milani]

Excellent point...


If Apple wastes their time with a keyboard like this (which as pointed out by SWC has no benefit for thumb typing) for the <1% of people who use it, I'd be seriously disappointed in their priorities.

That being said using this keyboard on a mobile device would make it easier to learn if you ever wanted to make the switch on a desktop device. So there is some merit to its inclusion.

 

[ThomasJL]

I can't speak for Apple, but typically large computer companies have entire departments set aside for something like 'interface'. So it would be unlikely to delay bug fixes.

Good point.

 

[ljl]

I got one...

Ok... One more Rant...

I've finally got an iPhone 3GS 16Gb. It's beautiful - really. I went and got the MobileMe as well and everything is working swimmingly.

Having said that, there are a few gripes and the keyboard of course remains the main one.

I will say that I can type using the iPhone intelligence on QWERTY much faster than I thought I would be able to. This surprised me, and kudos to Apple for thinking up this type of intelligent keyboard.

However, the only thing that slows me down, is when the intelligence chooses a word that 'fits'. Ie, a word that fits the movement directions of your fingers, but is actually the wrong word.

And you know why? It's because QWERTY has keys such as M & N right next to each other. These are both frequently used keys in English. How could the iPhone know the difference? Words like 'an' & 'am' therefore you have to be very careful with.

More examples?
Beat, Neat, Meat, Heat
Dear, Fear, Rear
Come, Cone, Coke
...and I'm sure there are other's people have found.

A few solutions. Apple's dictionary and grammar check could be incorporated so that the iPhone chooses whichever word makes most sense in the entire sentence. Indeed this would be a great feature regardless of what keyboard you are using.

But what I'm getting at is that the Dvorak keyboard would in fact be superior for reasons far beyond the left-right movement advantage. I had not counted on this before.

The right hand home row keys are D, H, T, N, S. While many words can be thought of that have any two of these letter right next to each other within a word, how many of those words are also completely different words simply by reversing those two letters?

I must say, I'm sure counter bad examples would exist on the Dvorak layout. My feeling is they'd be much fewer.

But of course this is all irrelevant to all you QWERTY users. You've got your keyboard and I'd expect you to be satisfied with it. I don't think there's too much Apple could do to the QWERTY keyboard on iPhone to make it better than it already is.

I guess it's for that reason that some go back to hard-keyboard phone options.

 

[ThomasJL]

Dvorak on the new iPad? Possible victory for us?

Minutes ago, the iPad was announced. In regards to the on-screen keyboard, Steve Jobs said, “It’s almost life size.” Steve later started typing on it, not with his thumbs, but as he would with a normal computer keyboard.

Considering that the iPad is supposed to run a newer version of the iPhone OS, if it does have the Dvorak keyboard option, could that mean it will possibly be available on the iPhone with the next OS update? If so, we on this thread have achieved a victory.

 

[michaellinehan]

Just leave it in!

Dvorak has been an option on Apple computers since the Apple II. Mac OS, Windows, and Linux all include Dvorak as an option.

Indeed. For all those complaining about us wanting a Dvorak keyboards and making comments like "Why should Apple bother?", it's not even a matter of adding it in. It's ALREADY there is OS X, and has been, all along. In making the iPhone OS X, they took it out. Why? Who decided that!? Just leave it in, Apple... puh-lease.