Early Final Cut Pro X Response Mixed, Updates Coming

[kingtj]

re: Can't buy FCP 7 anymore

Why are you so sure of this? Did someone at Apple tell you this as a fact?

I can still call the 800# and buy copies of OS X 10.5 Leopard, even though it's coming up on 2 versions old now and not displayed in stores.

I would think that especially realizing FCP X lacks some features people need and use in the previous version, they'd still be happy to sell people FCP 7 licenses for a while longer.

You're missing the point. What if you don't currently own FCP 7? (Or enough FCP 7 licences).

You WON'T "still have FCP 7". You can only buy FCP X. Which doesn't work for many applications that FCP 7 does. (FCP X it won't work in many broadcast areas that FCP 7 works just fine)

As of today - what do Apple think you should do? They can't sell you a product that solved problems that their previous product solved, and they won't sell you their previous product.

Either you wait for FCP X to mature (hoping it will) and don't buy anything (err - how's that going to work if you're building a new broadcast facility?) - or you switch to another platform. Apple simply can't behave like this in the high-end pro arena. You can't pull a widely used, mainstream product, replacing it with a feature-lite version, and expect people to wait for the features to come back.

If I'm buying an edit suite today, I want an edit suite today, not the promise of one at some indeterminite time in the future.

Switching platforms is NOT something you do frequently at the broadcast level - it's a 3-5 year minimum that you'll stick with your set-ups if not significantly longer than that.

If Apple don't address THIS soon - they're going to find a lot of broadcast and post customers switching platforms VERY quickly. The broadcast and post users will have no option.

As of today, if you want a full capable broadcast and post platform, you can't buy it from Apple. They have to start selling FCS/FCP7 and announce a clear roadmap for FCP X - stating what will and wont' be added back. And they need to do it VERY quickly.

 

[handsome pete]

Kingtj, after trying to decipher your post it's evident you have no idea what you're talking about. You try to use examples like RED, yet FCPX can't even edit RED footage.

FCPX isn't as bad as people have made it out to be. But it's solely a consumer based product at this point.

 

[handsome pete]

Why are you so sure of this? Did someone at Apple tell you this as a fact?

I can still call the 800# and buy copies of OS X 10.5 Leopard, even though it's coming up on 2 versions old now and not displayed in stores.

I would think that especially realizing FCP X lacks some features people need and use in the previous version, they'd still be happy to sell people FCP 7 licenses for a while longer.

Apple is not selling FCP7 anymore. At least that's what I'm getting from our vendor. They have other sources, but Apple is all about FCPX at this point.

 

[Reach]

You have no horse in this race...I have to wonder, why are you spending all week at the track?

lol That is indeed a fine response!

 

[LethalWolfe]

At this point, all I can really say is -- some of these stuck-up, "whole world revolves around ME"pro video editors/producers... Now they're putting the "meat and potatoes" of it behind a much more user-friendly front-end and haven't really eliminated any features that would ever affect me.

Just sayin'...

(emphasis mine)


Lethal

 

[noggin2000]

Depends on how you define amateurs...

I doubt the number is 5,000,000 but there are many people now shooting short films, corporate and wedding video on dSLRs and/or the new breed of AVCHD cams. These guys and gals are typically one person shops. They are going to love FCP X.

Yep - it is absolutely clear that FCP X is being aimed at this sector of the market. It's a large market, and Apple are bringing new paradigms and processing power to this sector, and Final Cut Express wasn't really able to cater to them. They've obviously decided to shift out of the broadcast and high-end post production market that FCP 7 catered for.

If I were to want to buy an editing package for my Macbook Pro to cut together video I shot on my consumer digital camera I'd look seriously at buying FCP X. It's a great price point for what it offers.

However nobody is going to be cutting multi-episode TV series in FCP X, as huge numbers are in FCP 7 / FCS.

What is odd is the mix of facilities in FCPX. They offer 4k editing and DPX export - which are very high-end D-Cinema facilities, yet they don't offer OMF and EDL export (which are a given requirement for anyone who needs to take material to high-end finishing)

Feels to me like iMovie is designed for editing iPhone shot footage for YouTube, and FCP X is designed for editing DSLR shot material for Vimeo and possibly even low-end indie short film release. Great for quality web production. Not great if you need to deliver a network TV show or a feature film, which is what FCP 7 could do.

Oh well - as others have said - time to move on to broadcast and post specialists. Avid and Adobe are obvious winners out of this in that area, even Quantel. Be interesting to see if Lightworks makes any form of dent. It used to be a huge favourite with editors used to editing with real film.

 

[petroff]

At this point, all I can really say is -- some of these stuck-up, "whole world revolves around ME" pro video editors/producers will hopefully walk right out that open door, and maybe Apple will even slam it shut on their rears on the way out.

Do you honestly think that these people criticize apple because they're stuck-ups? Do you actually think they do it just to be primadonnas and have their field day? How would you feel if your computer stopped being to able to send e-mail, or I don't know, have a network connection? This isn't interface change complaining or training work avoidance, it's about not having legs and wanting to go for a walk

(I have yet to see Apple release a single "waterproof" product for example, or a "military spec" one..

Yet Final Cut is still called PRO

The key here is, you're getting an AWESOME video editing product for your dollar with FCP X

No what you're getting is a lesser product with fewer features than before and with less integration with anything out there. It is a brand new release but is has a number indicating there were others before it and uses the same name as its predecessor, do you think anyone would care if it was called imovie advanced?

It's fine if you like the product, but please stop apologizing for apple and acknowledge that you are not alone in this planet, criticism can be constructive as well, there are valid point across the board.

 

[macrac]

They should not have called it pro

should have been Final Cut X

then in a few months they could release the Pro version
and people wouldn't be so freaked out

If this is it for the future of Final Cut Pro, then
Apple has just cut themselves out of the professional video editing market

time to start looking at Avid again...
or maybe even Premier

 

[kingtj]

replies ...

Yes. Yes, I do - in many cases. The film-making industry is a magnet for people with this type of personality, so it shouldn't really shock anyone.

Your examples aren't even comparable. It's more like, "What if you always got your broadband Internet connection from your local cable company? But now, they're talking about changing around their terms of service so you get a faster connection than before at a lower price, but you'll need a different modem and they implement a cap on your monthly download allowance." MOST people would gladly embrace the improvement of getting faster speed and a lower price. A few would whine and moan about how it's "unusable" for them because that cap means that sometimes, they'd exceed it because they download SO much more data (as a "professional user of the Internet") that it doesn't take their needs into account. And likely, the vast majority would look at those complainers and shrug, thinking they have some kind of entitlement issues.

Look, I'd see this a bit differently if Apple had somehow DISABLED your ability to use older versions of FCP and demanded that starting NOW, you use NOTHING but FCP X - and were required to delete all of your work made in the past with anything else.

That's just NOT reality here. This is all about throwing fits over a new release that is a complete revamp and as it almost always true for Apple products, needs a couple more updates to really make it complete. If you want to talk about a group of users with a more VALID complaint about how Apple handled them? Ask all the Windows users who were invested in using Logic until Apple bought it out and immediately discontinued the Windows version, forcing hordes of people to switch to CuBase or buy all new Mac hardware AND another Logic Pro license. In this case, you can keep on using the product you've got (FCP 7) while you play with the new one and see how it develops over time. If a year or so goes by and it's clear Apple has no interest in supporting what you need -- fine. Switch products to something else. (But I hear so often from Avid users how much less painful FCP was to work with that I can't believe it makes more sense to go back to them, really?)

Do you honestly think that these people criticize apple because they're stuck-ups? Do you actually think they do it just to be primadonnas and have their field day? How would you feel if your computer stopped being to able to send e-mail, or I don't know, have a network connection? This isn't interface change complaining or training work avoidance, it's about not having legs and wanting to go for a walk

Yet Final Cut is still called PRO

No what you're getting is a lesser product with fewer features than before and with less integration with anything out there. It is a brand new release but is has a number indicating there were others before it and uses the same name as its predecessor, do you think anyone would care if it was called imovie advanced?

It's fine if you like the product, but please stop apologizing for apple and acknowledge that you are not alone in this planet, criticism can be constructive as well, there are valid point across the board.

 

[kingtj]

Final Cut X?

Yeah, I actually agree with this. That would have been a good idea, especially with Final Cut Express being discontinued, it would help explain to people what the transition is all about (combining the 2 products into one that will please either type of user).

But again, I say this is primarily a "problem" right now because the "Pro" software users so often have a superiority complex. God forbid anything has the name "Pro" tacked onto it when they can come up with some scenarios it doesn't handle well enough for them, on the first day of its release!

The should not have called it pro

should have been Final Cut X

then in a few months the could release the Pro version
and people wouldn't be so freaked out

If this is it for the future of Final Cut Pro, then
Apple has just cut themselves out of the professional video editing market

time to start looking at Avid again...
or maybe even Premier

 

[NY Guitarist]

Yes. Yes, I do - in many cases. The film-making industry is a magnet for people with this type of personality, so it shouldn't really shock anyone.

The only thing I can say to this is that you clearly don't work in, or know anyone the TV/Film business.

You realize we're not talking about actors? No offense to my actor friends, although I just offended you!

I don't expect many people on MacRumors to understand the actual situation facing people who are not able to upgrade to FCPX and are stuck with FCP7.

 

[scottsjack]

What the hell has Aperture to do, with Final Cut Pro? FCP has a long history of professional usage amongst DIY filmakers, production houses and big studios!.

Philosophically they have quite a bit in common.

Aperture 3 is a more powerful, 64-bit version of iPhoto with a bunch of added features that are useful to prosumers and professionals. It is not a substitute for professional tools.

Final Cut Pro X appears to be a more powerful, 64-bit version of iMove with a bunch of added features that are useful to prosumers and some professionals. It seems not to be accepted as a substitute for professional tools.

 

[435713]

SO is Apple done with optical for good?

Seems like the older FC had a lot more content o the disk. Color was an awesome app. (is) I think they have to gimp it a bit to get pro style apps on the app store. Seems like they would make more $$$ if they had optical still at the 999 or even say a 799 price point for the full suite.

 

[kingtj]

Umm...

You're the one who just took a jab at actors, not me... so no point in apologizing to them after the comment was made!

But no, I'm thinking about the industry in general. You're right that I don't work in the TV or film business, but you're wrong on that assumption I don't know anyone in it.

Even talking about film PRODUCERS though, you can't even say with a straight face that none of them have a problem with arrogance! George Lucas, anyone?

I think I have a fairly good, basic understanding, of the issues involved here.... No, not as "in depth" as folks actually working in the industry do, obviously. But I get the core complaints ... such as the fact tape is still alive and well in the broadcast world, despite Apple wanting to phase it out. But still, I say a company is always smart to aim for the "long term" rather than the "here and now". Apple repeatedly does this and angers people who want to stick with the "status quo" -- but they're repeatedly right in the long haul, with products that wind up being in better positions for where things go. (Take "Thunderbolt" right now... People complained it "doesn't even have any peripherals out that use it yet!" and said they'd rather have USB 3.0. But USB has always been a rather lame standard. It's *serial*, so you can't daisy chain things on it. And it doesn't supply as much power as many devices really want to see/use, so you get all the B.S. like external hard drives that won't spin up when attached to SOME systems or SOME ports on the same system. Apple's offering people a better way with this.)

The only thing I can say to this is that you clearly don't work in, or know anyone the TV/Film business.

You realize we're not talking about actors? No offense to my actor friends, although I just offended you!

I don't expect many people on MacRumors to understand the actual situation facing people who are not able to upgrade to FCPX and are stuck with FCP7.

 

[linuxcooldude]

No what you're getting is a lesser product with fewer features than before and with less integration with anything out there.

No, your getting a DIFFERENT product that has a lot of new features FCP7 never had. Some features from FCP7 that are there, but renamed or built in. Some features that are also going to be coming back soon from FCP7 in the next few months to FCP X. And finally some features, that yes, are probably not coming back at all.

That would be a much more accurate description of Final Cut Pro X.


Integration is still a problem, but think camera manufactures will be adding support for these in the future. Probably as well as software support for third party programs.

 

[ss000kk]

Integration is still a problem, but think camera manufactures will be adding support for these in the future. Probably as well as software support for third party programs.

Do you honestly believe that after Apple pulled the rug (XServe, Final Cut Server, Final Cut Studio) any third party developer will just follow suit because Apple says so? One simple example: ARRI incorporated FCP's ProRes codec into its Alexa camera. That camera is not designed at all for prosumer videographers. They incorporated ProRes trusting that Apple would continue their commitment to the high end market. For the last ten years Apple has claimed that FCP was the professional standard. Suddenly and without any warning Apple says "we're no longer interested in the Pro market. Sorry." After something like that, it would be hard to expect ARRI, RED, AJA, BlackMagic Design, EditShare or any other reputable company to keep dancing to Apple's tune.

Ignorance is Bliss.........

 

[stevemiller]

i can't for the life of me figure out why there are people like kingtj who are trying to be antagonistic towards those who are upset about this whole thing.

seriously, kingtj? why do you care? it's great if the product meets your needs. it'd probably meet most of my needs too, and i'm excited to try out the tentpole new features at some point.

but you're being needlessly hostile here, putting down people who's jobs will get disrupted - not because they "don't like it" - but because it fundamentally messes up how things work. the "your current copy works just fine" argument is really weak, because the current copy is no longer sold or supported. and now a line has been drawn in the sand that is gonna totally fragment the market.

the post production world is EXTREMELY collaborative. project files change hands between many people in various disciplines. and what apple is advocating with final cut x is that EVERYONE has to shift over to whatever new paradigms they have decided in their software development vaccum, both immediately and simultaneously. no backwards or cross-compatibility, and no gameplan for facilitating that transition.

again, this whole thing probably won't affect you if you're playing with home movies, or if you're a small operation that doesn't need to collaborate with any 3rd parties. but it poses a major logistical issue for any large operation or even a small operation that needs to fit into a larger pipeline.

The armchair commenters on here really need to realize that this isn't dinosaurs clinging to their habits, or smug elitists complaining about the dumbing down of their cryptic workflows, its real people who are trying to do their day to day jobs and responding to apple throwing a massive monkey wrench into a system they'd grown to trust while providing no real solutions to the problems it introduces.

 

[walangij]

Does anyone else feel like Apple purposefully left out legacy to try to nudge users into a Final Cut Pro X framework rather than taking a "wait & see" approach?

 

[moondog1138]

Wow.

Okay, ignoring Kingtj's obvious inferiority complex with those that make a living as editors, I can't wait to hear the official Apple response to all the negative backlash.

Steve Jobs, "You editors are just holding it wrong!"

 

[darthraige]

Awful.

Playing around with FCP X right now. It's awful. Makes me appreciate FCP 7 even more now. All Apple needs to do to make me, or us, happy is to have the same interface as 7. Just do that and this program will be amazing.

Other than that. Back to FCP 7. Thanks Apple.

 

[GregAndonian]

Look, I'd see this a bit differently if Apple had somehow DISABLED your ability to use older versions of FCP and demanded that starting NOW, you use NOTHING but FCP X - and were required to delete all of your work made in the past with anything else.

Aside from the part about being required to delete your past work, they DID do exactly that. FCPX CAN NOT open projects from previous versions of FCP- and Apple has stopped selling FCP7.

 

[faustfire]

Okay, ignoring Kingtj's obvious inferiority complex with those that make a living as editors, I can't wait to hear the official Apple response to all the negative backlash.

Steve Jobs, "You editors are just holding it wrong!"

Think you hit the nail on the head there. Someone out there in the world of professional editors seems to have at some time in the past, looked at Kingtj's work and mumbled just a bit too loudly, "Are you seriously kidding me?!?"

 

[linuxcooldude]

Do you honestly believe that after Apple pulled the rug (XServe, Final Cut Server, Final Cut Studio) any third party developer will just follow suit because Apple says so? One simple example: ARRI incorporated FCP's ProRes codec into its Alexa camera. That camera is not designed at all for prosumer videographers. They incorporated ProRes trusting that Apple would continue their commitment to the high end market. For the last ten years Apple has claimed that FCP was the professional standard. Suddenly and without any warning Apple says "we're no longer interested in the Pro market. Sorry." After something like that, it would be hard to expect ARRI, RED, AJA, BlackMagic Design, EditShare or any other reputable company to keep dancing to Apple's tune.

Ignorance is Bliss.........

Do you honestly believe that after Apple pulled the rug (XServe, Final Cut Server, Final Cut Studio) any third party developer will just follow suit because Apple says so?

XServe never sold that well, so the Pro's didn't seem to like it too much. Did not have anything to do with Apple not supporting the Pro market. The Pro's have to support the market by buying them.

I'll give you another example: When JVC came out with their JVC GY HM-100U. That camcorder was designed to have native import into Final Cut Pro in .mov format. Now I'm not sure if it will go into their new FCP X although.

If the customers want support for their camcorders for FCP X well enough, we will see some plugins for FCP X come from these manufactures.

Suddenly and without any warning Apple says "we're no longer interested in the Pro market. Sorry

No, you said that.

 

[bettysnyder]

$300 for access to the beta...

 

[dethmaShine]

Playing around with FCP X right now. It's awful. Makes me appreciate FCP 7 even more now. All Apple needs to do to make me, or us, happy is to have the same interface as 7. Just do that and this program will be amazing.

Other than that. Back to FCP 7. Thanks Apple.

I guess that is the problem with most people.

People just cannot appreciate a change. They just cannot get accustomed to a new workflow. No wonder, people buy the same Adobe premiere version every year.

Good work.