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why does the MacBook Pro need the same look as the MacBook? To me, the MBP looks and feels like a sleek, well built machine, while the MB looks and feels like cheap junk.

To me, the two most important criteria in picking a laptop are the keyboard and screen in that order. One of the reasons I started buying powerbooks back in 1999 was their keyboards were far better than anything I could find in a windows machine, even in that high price range. That has held true to this day. The keyboard in the MB is absolute garbage, and for that reason alone, I would never buy a machine like that.

.

That was me feeling on the MacBook too. The keyboard wasn't as good as the MBA or MBP...not even close. The whole computer felt too delicate. The MBA was (is) a thin computer - but it always felt rock solid to type on and that it was a fairly durable machine.

My daughter is heading off to college this fall and needs a new laptop. Of course she wants a new MacBook. When we looked at all three, the MacBook was the first one we cut because of the keyboard. It's hard to imagine Apple keeping the MBA, MB and MBP in the lineup without any bleed over. The ideal machine would be an MBA chassis with a retina screen. But I have a sinking feeling the MBA is going to be sunset and the MB will get a hardware spec bump and be the new intro level portable laptop behind the MBP.
 
Trolling?
It is all about how you use your laptop.
There is a USB c connector. I just use it for charging, and if I were to use it for connecting other stuff, I would buy an adapter.

But you said you want Apple to gimp all their laptop lines, so you don't think it's about how you use your laptop, but you're trying to force all users into a more limited machine. If you like the MB, which I hate, why do you want to destroy the MBP which I like?

I was referring to lan connector and optical drives. SD card reader, why? Modern camera' s have the ability to upload foto' s through wifi.

Who mentioned optical drives? I do still use the ethernet port a few times a month. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker to lose it but I'd prefer to keep it. And I gain nothing for losing it.

As far as SD reader, when I travel, I take my MBP, every night I backup the SD cards from all my cameras and that also lets me view and pre-sort the pics during downtime on the trip.

As far as WiFi, I buy and use a lot of cameras, and I have yet to see one where they WiFi actually works in any useful way. I do have an EyeFi Pro (which even does the Raw files for me), it's great but it is so slow and the range so limited it's pretty useless. It is so much easier to plug in the SD cards.

It is just what I need and want, my personal preferences. No need to feel offended. But optical drives in a modern laptop ? Really ?

And they offer what you want in the MB. Why do you feel like everything that isn't what you want shouldn't exist? And once again, who said anything about optical drives? But you really can't see the advantage to having multiple internal hard drives over carrying an external USB drive and even then needing an adapter to connect it to the USB-C port?
 
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Presumably we will start seeing, maybe even on day one, splitters/hubs? I don't think the demand for a wired input/output method for audio is going to go away, so we are likely to see new products released.

I hope so, if this is the way this is going. I'm sure my use-case isn't one Apple thinks about right now- I use my iphone as a recorder for interviews, and some basic DAWS stuff- I also use my (now ancient) iPad 3 for some DAWS (ohpleaseletthenewipadbegood...), but the stuff I do has-has- to be broadcast quality, so no mp3 for me. Monitor-level BT isn't happening soon- unfortunately- and so, here I am. and carrying 'round a laptop isn't an option at all.
 
You're pushing this change on kids, seniors, other countries whose customers may not be as willing to pump endless dollars into adapters and new bluetooth headphones or accessories.

Very good point. You get your kids dirt cheap headphones because they are going to handle them like kids do. They will stretch them out, ruin the cords, drop them in fires (I speak from personal experience), etc.
 
That's your takeaway from that? You equate the usefulness of a serial port in 2016 to the usefulness of a USB3 port, Ethernet port, DisplayPort, and SD slot combined? You think all 4 of those ports combined are collectively as obsolete as serial port?

Do you believe Apple removed the USB3 port from the MB because they believe the port is too obsolete to use?

Do you even believe what you're typing or are you just trolling?
Trolling?
It is all about how you use your laptop.
There is a USB c connector. I just use it for charging, and if I were to use it for connecting other stuff, I would buy an adapter.
I was referring to lan connector and optical drives. SD card reader, why? Modern camera' s have the ability to upload foto' s through wifi.
I am with you on the ability to hook up a big monitor without the adapter.
But trolling, no...
It is just what I need and want, my personal preferences. No need to feel offended. But optical drives in a modern laptop ? Really ?
But you said you want Apple to gimp all their laptop lines, so you don't think it's about how you use your laptop, but you're trying to force all users into a more limited machine. If you like the MB, which I hate, why do you want to destroy the MBP which I like?



Who mentioned optical drives? I do still use the ethernet port a few times a month. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker to lose it but I'd prefer to keep it. And I gain nothing for losing it.

As far as SD reader, when I travel, I take my MBP, every night I backup the SD cards from all my cameras and that also lets me view and pre-sort the pics during downtime on the trip.

As far as WiFi, I buy and use a lot of cameras, and I have yet to see one where they WiFi actually works in any useful way. I do have an EyeFi Pro (which even does the Raw files for me), it's great but it is so slow and the range so limited it's pretty useless. It is so much easier to plug in the SD cards.



And they offer what you want in the MB. Why do you feel like everything that isn't what you want shouldn't exist? And once again, who said anything about optical drives? But you really can't see the advantage to having multiple internal hard drives over carrying an external USB drive and even then needing an adapter to connect it to the USB-C port?
I want to destroy your MacBook Pro ?

A bit exaggerated response, don' t you think?
I didn' t speak of ports, just the slimline design with pro hw. If they can put in an extra usb and an extra DisplayPort and a high end cpu/gpu, etc. i wouldn't mind, wasn't t talking about connectors. You are really taking this too serious..
 
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A second speaker is likely just something to fill the space created by removing the jack and not the reason behind such a big move.

Hopefully they have a really good reason for removing the jack other than stereo speakers that are close together and on same side of phone.

I'd rather have the space taken up by a 3.5mm jack instead of a speaker if it is about filling up space. Phone already has audio solutions with the built in speaker, lightning port, bluetooth and a headphone jack. Why not keep all options for the convenience of the user?
 
You're pushing this change on kids, seniors, other countries whose customers may not be as willing to pump endless dollars into adapters and new bluetooth headphones or accessories.

It pushes nothing on probably the majority of iPhone users. Most iPhone users probably use the stock white EarPods (I'd love to see real numbers on that, I wouldn't doubt it's the majority at all because people tend to just use what's given to them.) Nothing changes for them because they'll get Lightning version in the box. A lot of other people don't even use headphones of any kind with their phone. Kids and seniors are kinda who really fit into those categories.

There are three types of people.
1: Just uses what's in the box and don't care.
2: Doesn't use any headphone of any kind with their phone.
3: Owns already/buys other headphones.

I'm pretty sure 1+2 equals more people than 3. Resulting in nothing really changes for most.
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Hopefully they have a really good reason for removing the jack other than stereo speakers that are close together and on same side of phone.

I'd rather have the space taken up by a 3.5mm jack instead of a speaker if it is about filling up space. Phone already has audio solutions with the built in speaker, lightning port, bluetooth and a headphone jack. Why not keep all options for the convenience of the user?

I'm not sure you understood. They remove the jack. New empty space is available inside the phone. That space needs to be filled with something else now as to not waste that newly open space. They fill it with a second speaker. It's not a case of them removing it for the reason putting in a speaker. The speaker would have been added there because there was newly open space and something had to fill it.
 
It pushes nothing on probably the majority of iPhone users. Most iPhone users probably use the stock white EarPods (I'd love to see real numbers on that, I wouldn't doubt it's the majority at all because people tend to just use what's given to them.) Nothing changes for them because they'll get Lightning version in the box. A lot of other people don't even use headphones of any kind with their phone. Kids and seniors are kinda who really fit into those categories.

There are three types of people.
1: Just uses what's in the box and don't care.
2: Doesn't use any headphone of any kind with their phone.
3: Owns already/buys other headphones.

I'm pretty sure 1+2 equals more people than 3. Resulting in nothing really changes for most.
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I'm not sure you understood. They remove the jack. New empty space is available inside the phone. That space needs to be filled with something else now as to not waste that newly open space. They fill it with a second speaker. It's not a case of them removing it for the reason putting in a speaker. The speaker would have been added there because there was newly open space and something had to fill it.

You sound like somebody who doesn't have kids.

My kids (teenagers) are #3 all day. So are most of their friends. They listen to music/movies on their third party headphones. They also have ear buds for their backpacks and sports bags. And because they are active teens - they have broken/lost/damaged their original ear buds and bought new ones.

My wife listens to music on third party headphones as well.

Though my 70 year old mom is addicted to Netflix on her iPad.....but she'll be rocking her original Mini for years, so it really doesn't matter. (she has an iphone - but doesn't listen to much music on it.)

So out of the 5 phones on our account, 4 fall into category 3.
 
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There are three types of people.
1: Just uses what's in the box and don't care.
2: Doesn't use any headphone of any kind with their phone.
3: Owns already/buys other headphones.

I'm pretty sure 1+2 equals more people than 3. Resulting in nothing really changes for most.

There are 4 iPhones in my house, 3 of us use third party headphones.
 
I understand just fine, but if something has to fill the space , why not leave the 3.5mm jack?

Because they are removing the jack for other reason? If the jack had to be removed for whatever plans they have going, then something has to fill the newly open space. It's not a "we want to open up some space for no reason so let's fill it with a speaker"

You sound like somebody who doesn't have kids.

My kids (teenagers) are #3 all day. So are most of their friends. They listen to music/movies on their third party headphones. They also have ear buds for their backpacks and sports bags. And because they are active teens - they have broken/lost/damaged their original ear buds and bought new ones.

My wife listens to music on third party headphones as well.

Though my 70 year old mom is addicted to Netflix on her iPad.....but she'll be rocking her original Mini for years, so it really doesn't matter. (she has an iphone - but doesn't listen to much music on it.)

So out of the 5 phones on our account, 4 fall into category 3.
There are 4 iPhones in my house, 3 of us use third party headphones.

Because your families make up the hundred of millions of users, right? I have a stack of brand new un-opened EarPods on a shelf because my parents have never used headphones on any of their iPhones, so they give them to me. I have friends who don't ever use headphones on their phones (iPhone or Android) Using your logic, that would mean everyone doesn't use headphones on their phone.

We're talking about hundred of millions of users. You're only looking at what people do who are close to you. The overall average will fall into either they just use what's in the box or no need for headphones at all.

That's like saying "My family and I use Google Maps instead of Apple Maps. Therefore everyone must be using Google Maps." When in fact on iOS devices Apple Maps is used 2-3 times more often then Google Maps from iOS devices. Because it's there and most people just use what's there.
 
You're only looking at what people do who are close to you. The overall average will fall into either they just use what's in the box or no need for headphones at all.

And what logic are you using to come up with that? I'm just posting the data in my household for headphone usage. I made no claims such as above.
 
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I'm not sure you understood. They remove the jack. New empty space is available inside the phone. That space needs to be filled with something else now as to not waste that newly open space. They fill it with a second speaker. It's not a case of them removing it for the reason putting in a speaker. The speaker would have been added there because there was newly open space and something had to fill it.

They would have to remove a whole lot more than the 3.5mm jack to replace it with a 2nd speaker, and then what do they do with that second speaker when they ultimately fill the space with whatever new technology they removed the headphone jack to begin with? Go back to a mono speaker?

As I pointed out to you previously, speakers are a much more significant space requirement than the 3.5mm jack.

ifixit-5_3044766k.jpg




I understand just fine, but if something has to fill the space , why not leave the 3.5mm jack?

I'm with @Act3 here, leave the jack alone if they aren't ready to remove it. Doing so now doesn't really do much for them, especially if the competition is not ready to remove theirs. It just alienates a large portion of the user base. If Apple removes the 3.5mm jack on the iPhone 7, then whatever they replace it with will not just be a temporary space filler, it will be a permanent addition that Apple will have to work around in the future as well.

And stereo speakers would be largely disappointing addition in justifying the removal of the jack.
 
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And what logic are you using to come up with that? I'm just posting the data in my household for headphone usage. I made no claims such as above.

You hinted such claims by saying 3 out of 4 devices in your home use other headphones in counter to what I said. If you roll a 2 on six sided dice the first three times in a row, it doesn't mean it will roll a 2 most of the time. Looking at small sample does not give you the averages.

The logic behind saying most don't use 3rd party headphones is based off the pretty well known fact that the majority of smartphone users literally only have a smartphone for extremely simple tasks like texting family and friends and keep in touch with people on Facebook who live elsewhere. Most don't even have the slightest clue how to even really use their phone or what it can do outside of the very simple things.
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They would have to remove a whole lot more than the 3.5mm jack to replace it with a 2nd speaker, and then what do they do with that second speaker when they ultimately fill the space with whatever new technology they removed the headphone jack to begin with? Go back to mono speakers?

As I pointed out to you previously, speakers are a much more significant space requirement than the 3.5mm jack.

Again you guys keep going under the assumption it would be removed JUST for a speaker.

Also, I'm sure they would be engineering a new speaker chamber to accommodate two in the space. Most that space taken by the one is the chamber. Two speakers means each doesn't have to be as large to give equal or better sound. Each speaker only needs to do 50% of what one had to do.

I mention possible reasons as to why it could be going here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...in-iphone-7-plus.1960051/page-2#post-22658029

So many people are just looking at the surface and seeing it being removed and attributing it to making it thin or adding a speaker or purposely wanting to force people into buying things. Without even considering for a second that there could be legit technological reasons for it that were required because of something else planned.
 
Again you guys keep going under the assumption it would be removed JUST for a speaker.

Also, I'm sure they would be engineering a new speaker chamber to accommodate two in the space. Most that space taken by the one is the chamber. Two speakers means each doesn't have to be as large to give equal or better sound. Each speaker only needs to do 50% of what one had to do.

I mention possible reasons as to why it could be going here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...in-iphone-7-plus.1960051/page-2#post-22658029

So many people are just looking at the surface and seeing it being removed and attributing it to making it thin or adding a speaker or purposely wanting to force people into buying things. Without even considering for a second that there could be legit technological reasons for it that were required because of something else planned.

Did you see the size of the current speaker? And that speaker sounds pretty crappy as it is. Even half the size of that speaker is easily twice the size of the 3.5mm jack. So while I agree they could reduce the size of two speakers to possibly approximate that of the current single speaker, it would at best be equal, and most likely sound worse. Stereo is totally wasted on such a small device, particularly if both are on the bottom. In fact, one of the reasons the speaker housing is so larger to begin with is to get as much low-end resonance as possible. Cutting the speaker in half is going to reduce the low-end almost completely, as well as much of the volume. Doubling it won't improve much.

And again, they will have to remove far more than the 3.5mm jack to accommodate ANY speaker, unless Apple is just going to give up on audio quality altogether. Not sure how that will serve them with the customers that are already losing the 3.5mm jack.

I appreciate your efforts to justify the jack removal, but buying into the this stereo speaker rumor, especially if true is just misguided. I'm not suffering under assumption of anything at this point. But what I am saying, is that while I respect they might remove the headphone jack to accommodate other technologies, I will be sorely disappointed if it turns out to be a pointless stereo speaker, which will take up more room than the headphone jack, sacrifice existing quality, and serve little practical purpose.
 
pretty well known fact that the majority of smartphone users literally only have a smartphone for extremely simple tasks like texting family and friends and keep in touch with people on Facebook who live elsewhere

Really now? So this is what the majority of the millions of smartphones are used for?
 
Did you see the size of the current speaker? And that speaker sounds pretty crappy as it is. Even half the size of that speaker is easily twice the size of the 3.5mm jack. So while I agree they could reduce the size of two speakers to possibly approximate that of the current single speaker, it would at best be equal, and most likely sound worse. Stereo is totally wasted on such a small device, particularly if both are on the bottom. In fact, one of the reasons the speaker housing is so larger to begin with is to get as much low-end resonance as possible. Cutting the speaker in half is going to reduce the low-end almost completely, as well as much of the volume. Doubling it won't improve much.

And again, they will have to remove far more than the 3.5mm jack to accommodate ANY speaker, unless Apple is just going to give up on audio quality altogether. Not sure how that will serve them with the customers that are already losing the 3.5mm jack.

I appreciate your efforts to justify the jack removal, but buying into the this stereo speaker rumor, especially if true is just misguided. I'm not suffering under assumption of anything at this point. But what I am saying, is that while I respect they might remove the headphone jack to accommodate other technologies, I will be sorely disappointed if it turns out to be a pointless stereo speaker, which will take up more room than the headphone jack, sacrifice existing quality, and serve little practical purpose.

They may not even have to reduce the size of the current speaker and could be doing similar things like how the iPad Pro does it. It splits the highs to the top and lows to the bottom. Which overall improves quality. They could use the existing speaker for lows (to keep the low end resonance) and push the highs to the "new" smaller second speaker. Splitting the tasks that the speaker does improves quality because it no longer has to be a "jack of all trades".
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Really now? So this is what the majority of the millions of smartphones are used for?

Yes really. I wouldn't doubt for a second that the majority of smartphone owners only have it for very simple things to keep in contact with family and friends and nothing else. Not everyone is a "power" user or visits forums to know everything about their phone. Those people are the smaller percent of the overall.
 
Yes really. I wouldn't doubt for a second that the majority of smartphone owners only have it for very simple things to keep in contact with family and friends and nothing else. Not everyone is a "power" user or visits forums to know everything about their phone. Those people are the smaller percent of the overall.

http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/04/01/u-s-smartphone-use-in-2015/pi_2015-04-01_smartphones_23/

Granted this doesnt show much but it also doesn't include the under 18 crowd.
 
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They may not even have to reduce the size of the current speaker and could be doing similar things like how the iPad Pro does it. It splits the highs to the top and lows to the bottom. Which overall improves quality. They could use the existing speaker for lows (to keep the low end resonance) and push the highs to the "new" smaller second speaker. Splitting the tasks that the speaker does improves quality because it no longer has to be a "jack of all trades".

In which case it won't be stereo, and it will still need to take up more room than the 3.5mm jack does presently, which necessitates the removal of something else, which means the 3.5mm jack is being removed, strictly to add a second speaker. Not only that, but even if they do create some kind of fancy cross-over network, it still won't sound any better than it currently does, due to the size of the enclosure, which is absolutely going to get thinner, if only by a mm.

Adding a second speaker is the worst possible use of the space reclaimed by removing the 3.5mm jack.

I'm still not going to rule out 7s improvements that removing the headphone jack accommodates, but I maintain removing it at this juncture, and only offering some kind of bizarre two speaker sound system in its place, is going to foster ill-will under the circumstances. Better to hold of on any of it until they can demonstrate the real reason for removing the jack and justify it accordingly.

But again, adding the second speaker, which won't be temporary, is effectively utilizing the space of the 3.5mm jack, whatever else they introduce in the near future, which means the jack is being removed to accommodate a second speaker. Period. And that in my opinion is a pointless waste of resources.
 
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This discussion isn't about it being needed, it is about usage.

Ok looking at the graph for Music and Podcasts.

It doesn't show the overall percent of people who do listen to music. It also doesn't show the percent of total smartphone users by age group (IE if there are more in the 18-29 group than 30-50+) But it shows that only 39% from ages 30-49 listen to music. And only 21% ages 50+ listen to music. A much larger age group (30-50+ vs 18-29) that are not listening to music thus either don't require headphones or probably just use bundled EarPods. It only says that the younger group listens to music more than the other two, but doesn't say if there are more people in the younger group or less. I would assume more in the middle and older groups, as they would be more likely to be able to afford one.

And as you've pointed out. Doesn't have the under 18 group. Is a 12-15 year old more likely to have 3rd party headphones vs using what's bundled? Probably not.
 
Is a 12-15 year old more likely to have 3rd party headphones vs using what's bundled? Probably not.

I'd bet alot of them do use cheap $5 dollar ones from walmart to replace the ones that the cat chewed up or were lost, or just worn out from use.
 
In which case it won't be stereo, and it will still need to take up more room than the 3.5mm jack does presently, which necessitates the removal of something else, which means the 3.5mm jack is being removed, strictly to add a second speaker. Not only that, but even if they do create some kind of fancy cross-over network, it still won't sound any better than it currently does, due to the size of the enclosure, which is absolutely going to get thinner, if only by a mm.

Adding a second speaker is the worst possible use of the space reclaimed by removing the 3.5mm jack.

Or maybe it's not meant to be "stereo"? No one craps on Android phones with two speakers, in fact many keep wondering why Apple hasn't done it yet. Splitting the two speaker duties (high/lows) like the iPad Pro would be better than trying to be "stereo" like other manufacturers are doing.

Why do you keep going to the "it's being removed strictly to add the speaker." argument? When it's way more likely to be the other way around, "they are removing the jack for other reasons and filling that space with a speaker. Because leaving that space empty would be stupid and a waste."
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I'm still not going to rule out 7s improvements that removing the headphone jack accommodates, but I maintain removing it at this juncture, and only offering some kind of bizarre two speaker sound system in its place, is going to foster ill-will under the circumstances. Better to hold of on any of it until they can demonstrate the real reason for removing the jack and justify it accordingly.

If the real reason behind removing it is planned for the 7s, then those initial changes have to be made in the 7. Since they keep design for two years. Like I've mentioned in the post I linked. The wireless charging could be the whole reason behind it. Moving the antennas and removing the jack could have been required. Those two things are too big to change mid design (and not somethings they do) and would already be set in place when the design is first released in year 1 of 2 of its cycle.
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it still won't sound any better than it currently does, due to the size of the enclosure, which is absolutely going to get thinner, if only by a mm.

Making it thinner doesn't necessarily mean the enclosure will get thinner. The rumoured 1mm thinner could very well be from the other rumour of them going to an "on glass" screen (or whatever they're calling it) which is a thinner panel on its own. That 1mm less could be because of that and not effect the space inside the actual casing. And then the rumour of going to OLED (as soon as 2017) which is also thinner than the current LCD panel and wouldn't necessarily mean the case itself has to be thinner to make it thinner.
 
Or maybe it's not meant to be "stereo"? No one craps on Android phones with two speakers, in fact many keep wondering why Apple hasn't done it yet. Splitting the two speaker duties (high/lows) like the iPad Pro would be better than trying to be "stereo" like other manufacturers are doing.

Why do you keep going to the "it's being removed strictly to add the speaker." argument? When it's way more likely to be the other way around, "they are removing the jack for other reasons and filling that space with a speaker. Because leaving that space empty would be stupid and a waste."

No one craps on an Android with two speakers, because they didn't remove the universal 3.5mm headphone jack to include them.

There's no way around the reality that if Apple is removing the 3.5mm jack, which is at least half the size of any second speaker they could be adding to the phone, if not less, that the jack is being removed from the phone to make room for the speaker.

THEY ARE NOT FILLING TEMPORARILY EMPTY SPACE WITH A SPEAKER that they will have to remove when the 7s comes out a year later!! If those speakers go in there, they are staying!

What you are proposing has yet to make any sense. They remove the headphone jack in anticipation of some piece of hardware they needed to make room for a year later, but isn't ready. So temporarily they add a second speaker, which will improve the sound of the iPhone in the interim, to temporarily fill the empty space (with the rationale that they have to fill every void inside the case or it's a "stupid waste of space"), but then have to remove the second speaker a year later, to put in the thing they removed the 3.5mm jack to accommodate in the first place!? That's so unbelievably convoluted I don't know where to begin.

If the speaker goes in this year, it doesn't go away a year later. In which case, it REPLACES the 3.5mm jack,because they will have to make more room next year to include whatever new tech they're adding. End of story.

If the real reason behind removing it is planned for the 7s, then those initial changes have to be made in the 7. Since they keep design for two years. Like I've mentioned in the post I linked. The wireless charging could be the whole reason behind it. Moving the antennas and removing the jack could have been required. Those two things are too big to change mid design (and not somethings they do) and would already be set in place when the design is first released in year 1 of 2 of its cycle.

I'm not disputing that. It's the only reasonable thing you've said. They design the 7s, then back out of the design to the 7 until the new tech is ready, otherwise they have themselves an impossible task of squeezing new unplanned features into a pre-existing case, and it's the Apple /// all over again.

But look at what you're suggesting -- they don't include the new wireless tech in the 7, but instead fill the unused space with a second speaker that they replace with the wireless tech a year later? That's not going to happen. Whether that's why they dropped the 3.5mm jack for future tech, they still have to account for all the internal space for the new tech. And if they add a speaker, they are still going to have to come up with more room for the new wireless tech next year. So yes, no matter how you slice it, they replaced the 3.5mm jack with a second speaker in your scenario, and it's a poor choice considering the negligible impact on quality and performance.
 
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