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And there we have it. Jobs won't ever have a chance to be clearer, but it sure sounds like Jobs never intended for the App Store (or "Services") to be how Apple made money. Apple makes money by selling hardware which comes with great software included. They operate a store and an API that is supposed to make it easy for developers to make apps and for customers to receive apps, and they don't want it to be a money losing operation so obviously some small fees need to be collected, but at the end of the day, everything about the store should be in service of selling hardware.

And when the store gets in the way, alternative options should exist.

Apple never limited us to only putting music and videos from iTunes on the iPod - we could get them from anywhere, and Apple couldn't care less whether we pirated them or not. Their argument was that we could find the stuff on the iTunes store easier than via piracy, and so naturally it'd make sense for us to use it, but they didn't actually care. Jobs went as far as arguing against DRM and making everything about iTunes DRM free, so that everything would "just work". That was totally against the idea of them caring about making money via the store - only one person needed to buy it from iTunes, DRM free, and then they could distribute it however they wanted enabling piracy.

Apple gave developers an easy way to make money via iAds. Developers were free to use it, or not, and overwhelmingly they didn't.

In-App Purchases is the first time where Apple got super different about it - suddenly it wasn't about giving developers and users more and better choices. Suddenly Apple wanted to force everyone into giving them money.

Yeah, maybe the App Store was different, too, but I think that was intended to be short term, while Apple worked on their security model - if Jobs hadn't died, we would have seen Apple bring Gate Keeper from the Mac over to iOS 8 years ago.
I don’t think you realize how entitled you sound. Also, did you just admit to the free internet that you pirate media?
 
Why should Apple?

I don’t see what is so controversial about App Store profitability. You mean to tell me that the App Store model would suddenly be okay if it were to break even or even be run at a loss?

Epic is clearly grasping at straws here.

Because, despite the fact that anti-trust may not be an issue or law in your country, it is here, and for good reason.
 
So which model would you suggest Apple should use and they would still make the same amount of money?
Why the same amount? I was replying to a post about Xcode costing a lot to develop. Has nothing to do with same anount of money.
 
how much would it cost devs to comply with the laws and taxes of each country they sold and traded in.
That's the beauty of a free market. You do it yourself, or you choose a service provider. For example Apple for 15% because you figure it is a useful service because you don't want to handle all these laws and taxes.
 
Eddy Cue is the CEO that Apple doesn't have but who they need. If we can't have Scott Forstall then Eddy is the next best thing. Yet we're stuck with an ex-Compaq bean counter.
No.

Eddy-Cue-Dancing-GIF-Apple-Music.gif
 
Eddy Cue is the CEO that Apple doesn't have but who they need. If we can't have Scott Forstall then Eddy is the next best thing. Yet we're stuck with an ex-Compaq bean counter.
You do realize that he is pretty much responsible for all of the services that everyone complains about?
Siri? That was him.
Apple Music? That was him.
Apple TV? Him.
If you were to replace Tim Cook as CEO, The focus on services would probably grow even more.
 
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Forestall had the right vision for iPhone. And was subsequently ejected by Timmy. What a shame.
Not really.
People forget but in 2012, iOS and Mac OS X were beginning to look just a bit dated, and not in a good way.
Green felt in the game center, notes looking like a yellow legal pad, gray linen everywhere, corny reel to reel animations in what was considered one of the worst podcast apps ever, a Mac calendar app with leather that did absolutely nothing, and little visual gadgets and gizmos that were there just for decoration. It was extremely heavily criticized.
Then in 2012, they just piled on that by introducing Apple Maps, which was a horrible failure, and passbook which didn’t turn out as it was planned.
Not to mention, apparently some of the meetings after Job’s resignation that included Scott could get downright toxic.
A shake up absolutely needed to happen when it did, and when Scott refused to apologize for the whole Apple Maps debacle, that was basically the last straw.
He needed to go.
I’m not saying that he didn’t have great ideas, or that iOS has been absolutely perfect since 2012, because of course it hasn’t been.
But I think Apple made the right choice at the right time.
 
I generally hate big corps just suing each other willy nilly, but I looooove the stuff that comes out of them. Apple v. Samsung was awesome that it brought out early iPhone concepts. Now Epic v. Apple, the differing opinions and thought processes behind how Apple came about with their policies for the App Store.
 
One misunderstanding that is pervasive amongst App Store users is that App publishers, like myself, can issue refunds and have control over the payment system. Every so often I'll get a an app support email saying something like "I would like a refund this app was downloaded by accident". (yeah, sure...)
Then they're idiots. Every time I wanted a refund I always contacted Apple Support.
 
I don’t think you realize how entitled you sound. Also, did you just admit to the free internet that you pirate media?
Haha... As if someone hasn't in some way downloaded copyrighted material in this day and age. If you say you haven't I 100% guarantee you have listened or watched a movie or song that someone has downloaded. I bet you have never downloaded or watched porn online for free.... Same thing.
 
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If Apple opened up iMessage to Android users it’s highly likely I wouldn’t have to use Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp or Signal either!

I truly believe that the creation of a scaled down version of Messages for Android would lead to more adoption of it as a “standard” messaging platform and actually drive iPhone sales rather than hurt them. But then again, I don’t have a masters degree in Sales and Marketing from Berkeley… just a modicum of common sense.
As an apple user, imessages is my third messaging app now. I mostly use signal and whatsapp. Imessages is more of a nuisance now and it's much more convenient to use whatsapp as it is cross platform. As per how to monetize it, idiots! It's so easy.
 
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Schiller on Inductive Charging:
“Having to create another device you have to plug into the wall is actually, for most situations, more complicated.”

Schiller on iMessage for Android:
"I am concerned the iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones"

Schiller on Mac Pro trash can
"Can't innovate anymore, my ass"

Why is this guy still at Apple?
 
I'm an App publisher and I make good money from the App Store. One misunderstanding that is pervasive amongst App Store users is that App publishers, like myself, can issue refunds and have control over the payment system.
Every so often I'll get a an app support email saying something like "I would like a refund this app was downloaded by accident". (yeah, sure...)
Being able to re-direct them to Apple's support people is worth the 15% alone.
The other great benefits I get are 1) not having to collect local/national sales tax 2) offering payment in local currency and no currency exchange overhead. 3) dealing with credit card companies, paying outrageous "charge back" fees/fines etc
Those 4 things alone are worth 15%.
If you are paying 30% WTF are you crying about? I wish I was in the 30% category.
As a successful small app development company, I completely agree with you 100%.
 
It is not about profitability at all. It is about offering mandatory services at extraordinary prices. App distribution, content distribution, payment and accounting services are all nice if you want or need them. Like the other guy in the thread who said he's thankful for all the payment stuff being handled for him for 15%.

But companies like Epic and Spotify do not need these services. And therefore they should be allowed to opt out. Apple could then offer different, more tailored, more attractive packages. Like fully integrated payment for 5%. Which would be more in line with industry standard rates. Also, the same built-in mechanism could be used to pay for physical products too (which you cannot do now), probably making Apple even more money overall than now.

The result: Companies paying for services because they find them wothwile due to excellent usability and app integration with industry-leading, high conversion rates. Instead of having to pay mandatory fees for something they do not want.
A lot of people have a misconception in regards to App Store fees and what apple provides for those fees. Apple has literally built from the ground up an entire ecosystem, including making their own development language (swift) as well as thousands of APIs that developers can access for free (other than the yearly $99.00 cost to enrol in the app development program). If Epic and Spotify don't like Apple's terms, they can just sell on Android or they could even bother to develop their own mobile operating system. Epic wants to use everything Apple has made for developers over the years and not pay for it. They will never win this case because first and foremost, Apple does not have a monopoly on mobile App Store. No one is forced to buy an iPhone.
 
Because, despite the fact that anti-trust may not be an issue or law in your country, it is here, and for good reason.
There is no anti trust issues with the Apple App Store, for one simple reason. Apple does not have a majority market for mobile Operating systems. Android does. Saying Apple has a monopoly on Apple products is like saying Coca Cola ha has a monopoly on Coca Cola products. People can buy Pepsi, or many other brands. If people don't want to be stuck in Apple's ecosystem, they can buy an Android phone from any one of hundreds of different suppliers.
 
Maybe they can do a bare bones version and say that features like Memoji and photos are only available on iPhone, then show a link to buy the latest one. They can also provide a promo code for an extra 10% on a trade in, making more people switch to iOS.
 
And there we have it. Jobs won't ever have a chance to be clearer, but it sure sounds like Jobs never intended for the App Store (or "Services") to be how Apple made money. Apple makes money by selling hardware which comes with great software included. They operate a store and an API that is supposed to make it easy for developers to make apps and for customers to receive apps, and they don't want it to be a money losing operation so obviously some small fees need to be collected, but at the end of the day, everything about the store should be in service of selling hardware.
and the leap to....
And when the store gets in the way, alternative options should exist.

Believe it or not, Apple's average gross profit margin is ~35%. Apple makes more _profit_ as a percentage from hardware stores than the gross revenue from the App Store. The App store brings their profit margin _down_.

Subtract subsidizing creation of API, hosting of the store, dealing with customer service, payment, fraud and conflict resolution, and all the downloaded data from CDNs. It isn't that much.

The problem is that Apple doesn't nickel and dime in billing like you see with AWS. Some people pay dramatically less than others. Until recently, Facebook had been on a decade+ tear of paying $99/yr for hundreds of terabytes of downloads and so on.

Does Apple get benefit from developers in terms of increasing the perceived value of their device ecosystem? Yes! In fact, that was the reason that Apple lets people publish software for their devices. Try to publish a brand new fart app, and watch how quickly Apple tells you your app provides no new, distinct value.

Apple never limited us to only putting music and videos from iTunes on the iPod - we could get them from anywhere
Strangely enough, I only ever was able to put music from iTunes on my iPod. There was no third party software that was supported/supportable for doing synchronization.

If you meant the iTunes Music Store, yes there were alternatives. Also, the iTMS had an Apple margin for customer service, payment, fraud, hosting, etc. of.. 30%

There were a lot of parties upset that only the iTMS could ship DRM'ed music that would work on iPods. They wanted to have a slice of the pie of that ecosystem.

and Apple couldn't care less whether we pirated them or not. Their argument was that we could find the stuff on the iTunes store easier than via piracy, and so naturally it'd make sense for us to use it, but they didn't actually care. Jobs went as far as arguing against DRM and making everything about iTunes DRM free, so that everything would "just work".

Exactly! How did Apple protect their strong market position on being the only store that had the DRM protections the music industry was requiring and that works with the iPod/iTunes? By pushing the music industry to drop DRM, so that music purchased from any store would work on any device.

But this wound up also being a smart defensive move for the iTMS, because the music industry was trying to bolster up competing stores (like Amazon) by negotiating special pricing deals. The music industry couldn't stop their paranoia long enough to notice they were creating a future iTMS monopoly entirely through their own contractual stipulations.

You still have DRM for non "owned" music (free song/album downloads back in the day, iTunes Music which is a subscription) but generally nobody brings it up anymore.

That was totally against the idea of them caring about making money via the store - only one person needed to buy it from iTunes, DRM free, and then they could distribute it however they wanted enabling piracy.
Word to the wise - the songs still had watermarking. By default, your AppleID was stamped into every song you downloaded. Let a m4a file you bought trickle unedited up to a file sharing service and see what happens.

The reality is that people who download from pirates and the actual pirates are entirely different demographics of people. Once people could just get the songs easily through purchase or subscription, why would they go to a piracy site? And once nobody wanted the music from your site, why pirate it?

Apple gave developers an easy way to make money via iAds. Developers were free to use it, or not, and overwhelmingly they didn't.

In-App Purchases is the first time where Apple got super different about it - suddenly it wasn't about giving developers and users more and better choices. Suddenly Apple wanted to force everyone into giving them money.
Actually In-App Purchases were entirely additive. Before in-app purchases, there was no option within an app to buy virtual goods and services, or upgrade a 'free' app to a 'paid' app. Developers were forbidden to take payment in-app. Developers were the ones who were screaming for more options.

Yeah, maybe the App Store was different, too, but I think that was intended to be short term, while Apple worked on their security model - if Jobs hadn't died, we would have seen Apple bring Gate Keeper from the Mac over to iOS 8 years ago.

There is no security model that accounts for malware tricking and abusing users. Look at the newest App Tracking Transparency - through the App Store, apple has rules about misleading text, promises about payment or other reward for enabling tracking, any sort of feature removal for the user denying tracking, and any third party hacks for tracking devices/users without the user opting in to tracking based on telemetry or fingerprinting.

_None_ of that is enforceable with light touch technical measures. Apple believes the App Store exists to give them the leverage to act as a user advocate on their own platform, to ensure that there is a positive app experience.

I look forward to hearing about the steps that the hypothetical future Facebook app store takes to prevent abuses by Facebook.
 
Schiller on Inductive Charging:
“Having to create another device you have to plug into the wall is actually, for most situations, more complicated.”

Schiller on iMessage for Android:
"I am concerned the iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones"

Schiller on Mac Pro trash can
"Can't innovate anymore, my ass"

Why is this guy still at Apple?
He's not.
 
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EPIC, Apples house, Apples rules. EPIC signed the agreement.

This world is getting crazier and crazier.

Remember when Epic was on stage at the iPad introduction in 2010?

They were thrilled to be a part of Apple's ecosystem... and they clearly didn't object to the 30% fee then.

But a decade later... Epic is making billions of dollars selling digital currency... and now they don't want to give Apple the cut that they agreed to.

So here were are.

:p
 
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