Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Oh, I know the industry sees a difference and I'm saying things have gone too far. What I'm saying is when I buy an item, digital or physical, and I use it for my own personal use then that's fine.
I'm also pointing that with car, a physical item, you have even more freedoms over digital items. We've already given up enough power to intellectual copyright holders. We can't SELL other people's intellectual property the way we see fit. Fine. But now we can't even USE other people's intellectual property the way we see fit. Everyone seems to be ok with this, which is a shame.

The problem is that say you use a creator's intellectual property in a potentially damaging way. Or, in the case of Psystar, to make a profit by modifying the end product and reselling it as their own?

I'm not saying that a person shouldn't build a hackintosh. As a matter of fact I will build myself one as I'm too damned broke to shell out a minimum of $1300 for a reasonably capable system when I can build one for $700 and use my own monitor.

I just recognize that I am in the wrong by utilizing the software in violation of the EULA and will deal with the consequences should Apple come knocking at my door for it. I will also not build a similar system for anyone and will make sure that there is a distinction made between my system and a real Mac.

It's all about responsibility and as the consumer we are responsible for our actions and violations in the market, not the manufacturer whose only responsibilities are to not break the law and to make a profit for the shareholders.

As I consumer I don't have any responsibility other than the law either. I don't owe Apple anything else. I already gave them my money. If I don't want to give you my money or buy your product, I don't have to. If I do and I use it an way you don't want, and in a way that doesn't hurt anyone else, that's too bad. I have no loyalty or sympathy for any of these companies. As far as I'm concerned, they're lucky they have my business. Now, I'm not going to sell fake Apple computers, I'm not going to make copies of the software, I'm not going to crack their software and distribute my cracks online. No, I'm going to use it in my living room, or bed room or office the way I want. If Apple comes to my door and complains that I shouldn't do that I guarantee they'll never see a dime from me again. Until that day comes, I'll just keep buying what they sell and using it they way I want.
I think it's ethically irresponsible for me as a consumer, to allow companies to get away with unlimited stipulations after sale and not doing a single thing about it.

Back to the car analogy, I think the car is plenty of intellectual property. Toyota spent millions of dollars developing the car. There's plenty of software in that car (If that's what you're hung up on). And I can just turn around, throw some mods on it, and sell it for more money. Well? Big deal. But with computers and software we can't even do that. We can't even put mods on our own cars in our own garages.. if car manufacturers sold their cars with agreements like Apple.
 
I thought that Mac Pro is actually competitive with PCs in the same category when it comes to price? :confused:

you are missing the point of the quote he says complete overkill for my needs. I take this to mean he could've got a much cheaper computer between the imac which is too low and the mac pro which is overkill.
 
I just don't understand people's obsession with running OS X on PCs, especially if it's not saving money. ...Bragging rights I suppose.

Its not about money or bragging rights, its about expanability. Its about choice. Its about putting the parts into your computer that you choose. I like the idea & I already own an Intel Mac Pro. It has many restrictions to what I can do. No onboard PCI slots to use the many older PCI cards that I already own. No intermediat prices tower. Mac Mini is a very weak computer & has no slots. The iMac is better than the Mini, but still no slots. Intel Mac Book has no slots. The Intel MacBook Pro has one slot, but it is a narrow slot & requires a 1-3,000 PCI (e) adapters. Most know what the Intel Mac Pro can do, but the price is too high for manyh. The easilly plug in hard drives are nice until one may choose to add a pair of WD 300 GB Raptor drives & find out that they will not connect to Apples fixed in place SATA connectors, but instead needs adjustable or should we say loose SATA connectors.

Since this is a program more like Boot Camp that translates EFI bios to BIOS bios & back. Apple uses EFI bios while most Windows machines still use BIOS as their bioos. This means that we can just purchase our own MAc OS X OS & just use Apple's standard update files. Cheaper for E-FIX, easier for us & would come closer to not violating a legally sustaianable restriction.

I'm just about ready to purchase one. But at present they seem to just be available in Seitzerland, part of Eastern Europe, including Russia and Taiwan. But where can we purchase one if we live in the US. Also there is no mention of where the manufacture is located. That lack of a manufactures address can is a deal stopper for many, me included.
 
Thank you so much for having sense and saying so. You are right on target my friend. It's so scary that the digital/internet age has some how eroded personal accountability. You are a shining beacon and give me hope. In a free society your freedom ends where someone else's begins.

I don't understand how I'm acting irresponsibly. Violating their EULA maybe, but not irresponsible. I'm simply treating Apple products just like any other product I've ever owned: Cars, TVs, stereos, media players, furniture, etc. Buy it, use it, sell it (or recycle it). It's simple. If my couch came with an EULA license agreement saying I could only lay on, not sit on it (maybe the love seat is sit only), I'd say "too bad" and do want I want.
 
If you can RUN WINDOWS on a MAC, why not the opposite?
Let me explain that. You can legally run Windows on a Macintosh because Microsoft's business is to sell software, so they will happily agree to anything that increases their software profits. And Apple is in the business of selling hardware, so they will happily agree to anything that makes their hardware more attractive to customers and therefore increases sales and profits.

On the other hand, allowing MacOS X to run on non-Apple computers would cost Apple hardware sales, and therefore they don't allow it.
 
Just more expensive than ones needs!

Someone has to say it so I'll bite :p

They're not. Compare equivalent hardware between Apple and other name brands--looking at ALL the specs for an honest and complete comparison--and Macs are right in the same price range. Sometimes more than a given competitor, sometimes less.

What they ARE is:

a) More expensive than building your own or getting a cheap (for a reason) brand like an Acer. The same is true of Dell, HP, Sony, etc., so you can't call Macs relatively expensive on that basis. Rather, you should say that ALL name brand PCs are expensive. (Or even that any PC you didn't build at home is expensive.)

and

b) Available in fewer configurations. So you might find a particular name-brand PC config that meets your needs for cheaper--but you have to admit that it does so by omitting some things. Things you don't personally want, so that's perfectly reasonable to take into account--but it doesn't make the Mac overpriced.

This new product addresses b) rather than any price difference between comparable Macs and PCs.

Some people do not need everything in an Intel Mac Pro, but they still want an expandable computer, i.e. pcior pci (e) card slots. Apple is devoid in this area.
 
I just had a thought, this would be almost a none issue as in almost nobody would even do it if apple (steve jobs) didn't think he was God's gift to the world and know what YOU need better than YOU. I mean I see *most* of this going away if apple released a mid-range expandable headless tower.


just my 2 cents
 
There's a lot of talk about EULAs. Personally, I don't pay them any mind and I would encourage others to do the same. At work is a different story but at home I do what I want.
I'd like to see Apple try and stop me. What are they going to do? Sue me for using their OS on non-Apple hardware? Refuse to sell to me? Come into my house and physically take the media? Nope. They're not going to do anything.
I'm a consumer. I buy Macs and PCs. I use whatever I want and I do whatever I want. If anyone has a problem with it, tough, don't make it then.

I don't agree with the general thrust of this comment, although I do certainly acknowledge that Apple is probably most unlikely to pursue individuals and that, in reality, anyone who is particularly keen to run OS X on a non-Apple machine is likely to do so.

I just happen to have the rather old fashioned view that, having freely chosen to purchase a software licence, in full knowledge of the conditions attached to it, it is both dishonest and dishonourable to ignore them.

My view is reinforced by my opinion that the integrated (hardware and software) solution provided by Apple is significantly advantageous. Perhaps more importantly, in the overall context of the computer market, I do not believe that Apple's business model is at all disreputable. Clearly others don't share that belief but that's for them to argue.

More generally, having read through this rapidly lengthening thread, it is at once clear that there are a number of opposing and apparently irreconcilable opinions relating to the legality or otherwise of the OS X EULA.

Some contributors appear to speak with convincing authority, whilst others simply rant in a fashion that barely generates confidence in their views. Unfortunately, the distribution of apparently authoritative information is uneven - it doesn't express a coherent opinion - which exposes the danger in assuming that those who speak with authority are actually relevantly knowledgeable.

I suspect that issues around regulation and the law are particularly prone to the risk that personal opinion and prejudice masquerades as fact. And yet, it is in this area that an appropriate degree of expertise, coupled with precision of language, is most important.

Unlike most of the more outspoken contributors to this thread, I am prepared to admit that I have insufficient knowledge of the law to be at all certain that my personal views have any real validity. However, with that significant caveat, I would argue the following general points.

As others have stated, we purchase a copy of the operating system, the use of which is subject to licence conditions that we implicitly accept either at the point of purchase or otherwise at the point of reading the EULA and agreeing its content. (If the EULA wording is not available on the packaging, we are entitled to read it after opening and, at that point, to determine that it is unacceptable and to return the package for refund.)

If we use the software, it is implicit that we have read and agreed the licence conditions. The licence effectively forms part of a contract.

Apple markets an integrated product consisting of both hardware and software. An important element of competitive advantage lies in the coherence of this approach.

Apple has a legitimate interest in protecting its intellectual property. Buyers are (or should be) aware of the terms of the EULA.

Apple does not have a monopoly position in the overall personal computer market.

Other contributors may choose to denounce my views as nonsense. And perhaps they are, but they're certainly in some good company!
 
Me Me Me, I I I

If I don't want to give you my money or buy your product, I don't have to. If I do and I use it an way you don't want, and in a way that doesn't hurt anyone else, that's too bad. I have no loyalty or sympathy for any of these companies. As far as I'm concerned, they're lucky they have my business. Now, I'm not going to sell fake Apple computers, I'm not going to make copies of the software, I'm not going to crack their software and distribute my cracks online. No, I'm going to use it in my living room, or bed room or office the way I want. If Apple comes to my door and complains that I shouldn't do that I guarantee they'll never see a dime from me again. Until that day comes, I'll just keep buying what they sell and using it they way I want. I think it's ethically irresponsible for me as a consumer, to allow companies to get away with unlimited stipulations after sale and not doing a single thing about it.

Wow, look at all the I's, me's, and my's. You go boy, the world revolves around you. What a weak argument. I want to throw up when I hear the, "if it doesn't hurt anybody, blah, blah, blah." The ethical irresponsibility is squarely in your corner with this line of thinking. Just because you buy something, especially licensed and copyrighted material, doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want with it. And just because you are physically capable of doing whatever you want in you own home doesn't make it ethical or responsible either. Sad, selfish, and shortsighted. :(
 
What you and people like you don't seem to 'get' is that not everyone NEEDThey're preventing other companies from selling HARDWARE for the OS X operating system market. In other words, if you want to run OS X, you're not allowed to buy it and install it on the hardware of your choice. You have to buy generic clone hardware from Apple and Apple alone. Thus, Dell, Lenovo, etc. aren't able to compete with Apple because Apple is telling them they aren't allowed to install OS X. And if you need to run Mac software, you need OS X so that hardware from Dell becomes useless and irrelevant for your needs so how can their hardware compete with Apple's hardware at that point when you NEED Apple's to run Mac software?

You are using the same argument that Psystar uses, and you make the same unforgivable mistake that they make. How can you claim with a straight face that Dell cannot compete with Apple? Both sell computers. Dell has invested tons of research and development money into making production of their computers as efficient as possible, into making sales as easy as possible, into providing good service, especially for company buyers. Apple has invested some money into the same things, but they have also invested lots of money into MacOS X ($400 million for the NeXT purchase, millions and millions into development), while Dell relies on Microsoft and a little bit on Linux. That is competition: Each company invested where they believed it to be most appropriate, and harvests the benefits of their investments. Surely Dell had the cash to offer $410 million for NeXT instead of Apple's $400 million. If Dell computers can't run MacOS X, that is purely due to Dell's business decision not to outbid Apple in the NeXT purchase (obviously it would be called DellOS X).

If Apple were anti-competitive for keeping MacOS X to themselves, Dell would be just as anti-competitive by keeping their perfect purchasing, manufacturing and sales model to themselves. Pure nonsense.
 
For those that think that this type of thing is a great idea I will try one more time to make a point that you hopefully will understand.

First, try to understand that OS X is sold at a price that is most likely break-even at best. Why? Because that is not where Apple makes its profit; they are not in the business of selling only operating system software.

With Apple's current pricing plan, they are sure that each person that purchases a copy of OS X also purchased a MAC computer. They reap income from the hardware sale.

The combination of the price paid for OS X and the price paid for the hardware COMBINED is sufficient to allow Apple to pay for R&D, general overhead and make a profit for its shareholders.

If you take away a major portion of the income that they derive from each copy of OS X sold, that of the hardware, Apple will not generate sufficient funds to pay for R&D, general overhead and profit for its shareholders.

If this were to happen, something would have to give. Either the price of a copy of OS X would have to be increased by the amount of income that was derived by the hardware sale that did not occur (drastically raising the cost of a copy of OS X), R&D costs would have to be reduced (no more innovative products we all love), general overhead would have to be reduced (quality engineers and programmers would be let go, again no more innovative products) or shareholder profits would have to be reduced (no more Apple) or more likely, some combination of all of these.

Does this remind you of any other company (think M$)? Do you really want another M$ instead of an Apple? That is what widespread adoption of the use of Hacintoshes would cause. Not a pleasant thought.

Dave

Sorry, but that is not true at all. While not a huge money maker for Apple, Apple does indeed make a nice profit margin on osx sales. The only reason it's not a major revenue stream is that Apple just doesn't sell all that many stand-alone copies of osx, relatively speaking.

Either way, your argument doesn't hold water. Saying that r&d would suffer shows a serious misunderstanding of Apple. Apple has a huge cash cow in the iPod. That alone would be sufficient to finance r&d. Besides, Apple's pc hardware margins are about 15-25% (it fluctuates with component costs). Apple's software margins are well over 50%.

It isn't iTunes.
 
I just had a thought, this would be almost a none issue as in almost nobody would even do it if apple (steve jobs) didn't think he was God's gift to the world and know what YOU need better than YOU. I mean I see *most* of this going away if apple released a mid-range expandable headless tower.

What is with this attitude? "I want product_x from Acme Widget Co. but they don't make it. Who the Hell are they to think that THEY know what I want better than I do? Acme SHOULD make it because I want it!!"

Grow up people! No corporation is required to enter into a given market segment. If Apple doesn't wish to compete in the mini tower market that is their right. I bet people would love to have a Porsche sub-compact or, at least, a mid-priced sedan. Porsche chooses not to compete in those areas, no matter how much money they could make doing so.
 
We're not talking about unlimited copying of the software. That would violate copyright law. What he's talking about is being able to use the product you bought in any manner you see fit. If I want to buy OSX discs and use them as coasters, then I should be able to. If I want to buy OSX and attempt to install in on my old Commodore 64, I should be able to do that too. I'm not sure when people decided to give up some basic consumer rights (first sale, resell, backup copies), for a product you supposedly purchased, in the name of fanboism.

Actually, without a license agreement we would be talking about unlimited copying. It would be the same as one company buying another company to assume ownership of the software.
 
What is with this attitude? "I want product_x from Acme Widget Co. but they don't make it. Who the Hell are they to think that THEY know what I want better than I do? Acme SHOULD make it because I want it!!"

Grow up people! No corporation is required to enter into a given market segment. If Apple doesn't wish to compete in the mini tower market that is their right. I bet people would love to have a Porsche sub-compact or, at least, a mid-priced sedan. Porsche chooses not to compete in those areas, no matter how much money they could make doing so.

I'm not saying just because I want it the should make it. I'm saying fight a bunch of court battles (more WILL pop up) or release something that will squash a vast majority of these people and make a profit. Saying no we are not doing that because we haven't done that before and won't because we will have to admit we aren't *perfect* by doing it is very egotistical in my opinion.

again just my 2 cents.

by the way call this flame bait if you want, maybe it is, but it's just how I feel.
 
Saying no we are not doing that because we haven't done that before and won't because we will have to admit we aren't *perfect* by doing it is very egotistical in my opinion.

I love to see your source that Jobs or anyone else representing Apple said that. Please post the link ASAP so we can put this issue to rest.
 
I love to see your source that Jobs or anyone else representing Apple said that. Please post the link ASAP so we can put this issue to rest.

give me one good reason other than that why you would NOT release a mid-range headless tower.
 
give me one good reason other than that why you would NOT release a mid-range headless tower.

I see—"whatever I think must be right unless and until someone can prove me wrong. I have no reason or basis on which to form my opinion, but it must be right because I think it."

Give me one good reason Porsche doesn't make a mid-sized sedan other than "the Porsche family thinks they know what's best for drivers and are too egotistical to admit they're wrong."

How about this: both Apple and Porsche choose not to cater to those markets. They choose to allow others to fill the needs of the consumer without their respective competition.
 
I see—"whatever I think must be right unless and until someone can prove me wrong. I have no reason or basis on which to form my opinion, but it must be right because I think it."

Give me one good reason Porsche doesn't make a mid-sized sedan other than "the Porsche family thinks they know what's best for drivers and are too egotistical to admit they're wrong."

How about this: both Apple and Porsche choose not to cater to those markets. They choose to allow others to fill the needs of the consumer without their respective competition.

Ok. Someone else can cater to those markets. ie pystar :) I mean I don't see Porsche suing Ford because you can get a car for much cheaper.
 
give me one good reason other than that why you would NOT release a mid-range headless tower.

1) It may eat into higher margin sales of iMacs and Mac Pros.
2) They do not want to expand their current engineering resources into another product.
3) Apple's market research does not indicate that the mid-range headless tower would attract a sufficient amount of new users to justify it's potential to cannibalize other systems.

I am not saying any of these statements are true for sure. But they are all possible reason's that Apple does not want to release a mid-range headless tower.
 
1) It may eat into higher margin sales of iMacs and Mac Pros.
2) They do not want to expand their current engineering resources into another product.
3) Apple's market research does not indicate that the mid-range headless tower would attract a sufficient amount of new users to justify it's potential to cannibalize other systems.

I am not saying any of these statements are true for sure. But they are all possible reason's that Apple does not want to release a mid-range headless tower.

yes, and fighting countless (it's never going to stop) court battles is so much more cost effective :rolleyes:

but w/e I'm out let's just agree to disagree
 
Ok. Someone else can cater to those markets. ie pystar :) I mean I don't see Porsche suing Ford because you can get a car for much cheaper.

Psystar is welcome to compete along with Dell, Lenovo, HP, Compaq, et cetera. What they're not allowed to do is take the fruits of Apple's labours, i.e. OS X, and use for their own gain.

The fact that Apple doesn't compete in a given area is not license for others to compete for them, using Apple's IP.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.