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And how is this a blunder? Apple is far wealthier than Tesla. Just because Telsa reaches out Apple to purchase the company doesn't mean Apple has to do it. Apple doesn't need Tesla to build cars.
Apple will screw up cars. I guarantee that their car will be too expensive, will have a poor range, will looks like an idiotic bubble car and will require a subscription.
Tesla are a raw and innovative company and will always get my money over any other car manufacturer.
 
Apple will screw up cars. I guarantee that their car will be too expensive, will have a poor range, will looks like an idiotic bubble car and will require a subscription.
Tesla are a raw and innovative company and will always get my money over any other car manufacturer.
Teslas are expensive.
Tesla has moved it's internet connectivity to a subscription and moving FSD to subscriptions.
Depending on how your right foot is, the range is so-so.
 
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Considering the increased competition of electric cars from various manufacturers, Tesla might end up not having the lions share of the marketplace for electric vehicles.
They just got the head start, when catching up is done , I suspect Tesla will also be done...The creative ways of finding funding, like the pre-reservation fees looks to me an unhealthy sign. Auto business on world wide scale requires a lot of network infrastructure that you can’t build overnight. Tesla should reach out to an established auto maker, not Apple. I believe Tim knows this; Technical achievements are great but they don’t grant sales “per se”.
 
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For real?

I mean - you don’t seem to be very informed about the electric car world because despite of the inferior range from a technical point of view the Porsche Taycan beats Tesla all the way.

Yes, Model S PLAID is performing better on the first sprint, but if you’re talking sustained power it’s Taycan hands down.

I’m currently driving an ID.3 which - shame on Volkswagen - won’t hit American market. It’s a good first shot. Get to know the ID.4. This car will give Model Y a real hard time (apart from performance bragging) as craftsmanship and build quality simply are on another level.
Exactly! Tesla Head lead is ending...and I suspect getting the needed funds will get even more difficult.
 
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Underestimate Elon Musk at your own peril. Hes an innovator, creator, and managed to get electric vehicles in the mainstream. all others failed.
selling cars is vastly different, besides the challenges of creating one, the after sales servicing, maintenance, and charging network.
i cant see Apple car service centers in the future. Apple shouldn’t bother...they’ll go the same way Dysons car went.

Tesla will dominate, as they are now, and will grow their lead. The growing pains with build quality will be resolved. Musks behaviour might be ridiculous at times, but which genius hasnt been controversial?
 
nope. Cook missed out on hundreds of talented engineers.

sounds like you just hate elon because he's elon and you're not thinking objectively.

BTW, that SEC investigation resulted in a settlement where Elon paying out $20 mil to SEC + $20 mil to Tesla in which he gained additional shares that are now worth much more than $40 mil he paid out.
Elon’s a great showman and mind but he’s a loose cannon. Apple got trillions and doesn’t need that. Brand image and control are much more important to Apple than money. Apple’s got plenty of Tesla engineers already. Why do you think they left Tesla?
 
Elon’s a great showman and mind but he’s a loose cannon. Apple got trillions and doesn’t need that. Brand image and control are much more important to Apple than money. Apple’s got plenty of Tesla engineers already. Why do you think they left Tesla?

Engineers aren't an endless supply. You can't just say "I have 2 trillion dollars, I'm going to hire half a million engineers to speed up the car project and have it done in a couple of years instead of 10 years!".

There's only so many engineers out there that are good and that know how to build parts of an EV. And there's only so many people you can add to a team before you see negative ROI.

Also hiring one talented engineer isn't always going to yield amazing results. If they don't work well in the team, it's not going to work out. A-players must be comfortable with other A-players. Building teams is essential to the company and it looks like Tesla has some pretty damn good teams.

You can't really judge accurately why Apple has many Tesla engineers based on outward appearances. Maybe it's money. Maybe it's the fact that Tesla demands a lot from engineers so they go for an easier job. Maybe Tesla fires the engineers that don't fit well in the company. Hell, even Tesla stole Chris Lattner from Apple to run up Autopilot only to get fired 6 months later. There are too many reasons which makes it difficult to narrow down the reason why people leave Tesla.
 
I trust that all of you nay sayers are either shorts or ticked you didn't buy on the dips. Currently Tesla is vastly over priced and their quality is of question with the latest recall. Personally I feel that electric cars are a joke, they take one thing in very short supply in CA and our 'leadership' is trying to make sure it is in even shorter supply and even more expensive.
 
Engineers aren't an endless supply. You can't just say "I have 2 trillion dollars, I'm going to hire half a million engineers to speed up the car project and have it done in a couple of years instead of 10 years!".

There's only so many engineers out there that are good and that know how to build parts of an EV. And there's only so many people you can add to a team before you see negative ROI.

Also hiring one talented engineer isn't always going to yield amazing results. If they don't work well in the team, it's not going to work out. A-players must be comfortable with other A-players. Building teams is essential to the company and it looks like Tesla has some pretty damn good teams.

You can't really judge accurately why Apple has many Tesla engineers based on outward appearances. Maybe it's money. Maybe it's the fact that Tesla demands a lot from engineers so they go for an easier job. Maybe Tesla fires the engineers that don't fit well in the company. Hell, even Tesla stole Chris Lattner from Apple to run up Autopilot only to get fired 6 months later. There are too many reasons which makes it difficult to narrow down the reason why people leave Tesla.
Its simple. Look at the engineers who started in the early days of the company. If they cashed out their stock options and moved on to work for another company doing essentially the same thing, they obviously weren’t that happy where they started. You have plenty of engineers jumping ship on both sides. My point is that Apple buying Tesla is similar to Apple buying Disney or Netflix. Too much baggage and corporate culture clash. Apple doesn’t want or need that. That’s why their biggest acquisition was Beats for only $3 billion which Apple has slowly killed off. They don’t want Tesla or Musk’s legacy hanging over their heads when they launch their own cars.
 
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Apple can only create e-waste, disposable car. Look at their products, all of them are non-environment friendly. The biggest benefit of Tesla is not just electric car side, but implementation of space technology into tesla. Apple car might sell due to Apple brand, but it will be worse than tesla.
 
You're talking as if Tesla is completely behind Porche in every way except range.

- Sustained power isn't something every Porche/Tesla driver needs anyways.
- Porche doesn't have the infrastructure to support most road trips.
- They don't have the engineering capability to push "big" software updates wirelessly (only small updates are delivered over the air). https://insideevs.com/news/439492/porsche-taycan-dealer-software-updates-unlike-tesla/
- And Porche doesn't have the technical capability for autonomous driving.
But sustained power is what makes Elon’s performance claims laughable.

The loading infrastructure is called Ionity. Check out the charging points all over Europe and you will see that infrastructure is not an argument anymore.

You are really doubting Porsche’s engineering capabilities which is the most ridiculous Fanboy claim I ever read. Grow up. Tesla had its time - the ship has sailed!

And we don’t want to go into Tesla build quality with quality impression that is easily touted by every competitor. I don’t think Apple would release a car with that massive coating issues like in the Model Y!
 
Its simple. Look at the engineers who started in the early days of the company. If they cashed out their stock options and moved on to work for another company doing essentially the same thing, they obviously weren’t that happy where they started.
Not that simple. Only directors, top level execs, and large shareholders are required to report the trades. Otherwise, you don't know if they cashed out.

And I'm not sure where you're getting it with that statement. Which big name early-company engineer jumped shipped from Tesla to Apple?

You have plenty of engineers jumping ship on both sides. My point is that Apple buying Tesla is similar to Apple buying Disney or Netflix. Too much baggage and corporate culture clash. Apple doesn’t want or need that. That’s why their biggest acquisition was Beats for only $3 billion which Apple has slowly killed off. They don’t want Tesla or Musk’s legacy hanging over their heads when they launch their own cars.

Disagreed. Disney and Netflix don't have engineers Apple absolutely needs and both companies are way too expensive at 300B and 200B respectively. It'll take probably a decade for Apple to recoup costs from selling subscriptions. It took Apple about 5 years to make back their $3 billion purchase of Beats.

However, buying Tesla at $60 billion and selling cars at Apple margins could make back the money in less time. Plus their manufacturing expertise could bring back manufacturing of many Apple products from China.
 
The current Tesla Model S Performance currently holds it's own with the Taycan. Faster off the line and then the Taycan picks up. In a quarter though, Model S is still beating it but it's pretty even.

However, 90k vs 185k between the two. 201 miles of range vs 387 for the Model S.

I don't know how you could try to argue that Tesla isn't dominating the EV market. With the competitors right now, you have one of two things. 1. There is some demand but they can't get enough batteries to make the vehicle (artificial demand essentially) OR 2. There isn't the demand and they keep having to discount them.
Then there are two main obstacles for EV acquisition of ice customers: cost and range. Cost, Tesla has some competition now. But when you factor range and with that their charging infrastructure, there's no match. Where I live in the US, the 350kw Electrify America stations never get anywhere near those speeds and most of the reviews have them anywhere from 35-55kw rate. So all this leads to one thing, people have more confidence in transitioning to Tesla over others.

Back to the topic on hand, regardless of people's opinions on Elon. I'd be pretty disappointed in Tim if he had the opportunity to talk with Tesla/Elon and didn't even entertain the idea. IMO, there are certain players in industries where you at least listen.
Like I said...you live in the past. Volkswagen AG (with Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Seat and Porsche im their Portfolio) did catch up and overtake Tesla.

Like I wrote - inform yourself about ID.4 in the low range (or Cupra El Born, Skoda Enyaq) and all the other cars they offer right now.
 
But sustained power is what makes Elon’s performance claims laughable.

What claim are you talking about specifically? Elon never made any claims about beating Taycan at sustained performance, except with it comes to the Plaid possibly.

The loading infrastructure is called Ionity. Check out the charging points all over Europe and you will see that infrastructure is not an argument anymore.

Are you sure? Look at Arezzo, Italy to Naples. Can't do that drive with a Taycan because it's about a 400km drive. If you live in the outer edges of France, you can't use a Taycan without resorting to slow charging.

However, if you look at the Supercharging map, you can all drives in France and Italy from wherever you are with a Model S performance (even the Model 3 standard range plus works).

And Ionity is Europe only. If you're looking for fast charging in USA, only Tesla's Superchaging can enable you to drive literally from point A to point B anywhere in the country.

You are really doubting Porsche’s engineering capabilities which is the most ridiculous Fanboy claim I ever read. Grow up. Tesla had its time - the ship has sailed!

What's Porsche's self driving plan? So far they've only demonstrated some self driving capability in a workshop. I'm sure Porsche can probably engineer it, but they don't have the data to train their neural nets. Tesla has hundreds of thousands of cars on the road collecting terabytes of real world data to train from. Today Tesla has near full self driving literally running in cars in a beta version. Only thing Tesla hasn't enabled yet is smart auto parking.

It's not a fanboy talking, it's the facts talking. Porsche can steal Tesla's entire vision team (or even better teams) and unless they have the data, they're not going to get very far.

And we don’t want to go into Tesla build quality with quality impression that is easily touted by every competitor. I don’t think Apple would release a car with that massive coating issues like in the Model Y!
Of course a $100k Porsche is going to beat Tesla's overall build quality. I don't think a single person in the world thinks otherwise.
 
Teslas are expensive.
Tesla has moved it's internet connectivity to a subscription and moving FSD to subscriptions.
Depending on how your right foot is, the range is so-so.

You expect free LTE? What other car offers a lifetime of LTE connectivity that lets you watch Netfix on the car screen?

FSD will be subscriptions for people who lease the cars because it doesn't make sense to pay $8k for software you're only going to use for 2 years. People will always have the option to buy FSD outright.
 
Not that simple. Only directors, top level execs, and large shareholders are required to report the trades. Otherwise, you don't know if they cashed out.

And I'm not sure where you're getting it with that statement. Which big name early-company engineer jumped shipped from Tesla to Apple?



Disagreed. Disney and Netflix don't have engineers Apple absolutely needs and both companies are way too expensive at 300B and 200B respectively. It'll take probably a decade for Apple to recoup costs from selling subscriptions. It took Apple about 5 years to make back their $3 billion purchase of Beats.

However, buying Tesla at $60 billion and selling cars at Apple margins could make back the money in less time. Plus their manufacturing expertise could bring back manufacturing of many Apple products from China.
Lead engineers were jumping ship back when Tesla stock nosedived below $225 which is when I bought it. Their departures were all over the tech news which is what drove the stock down further. I’ve made a lot of money off both Tesla and Apple so I have no ill will towards either. I also know that Apple is too conservative and shrewd to spend that much for pre-profit car company at that time. And Elon wouldn’t have sold to anyone. He makes big bets on himself with no backup plans.
 
Lead engineers were jumping ship back when Tesla stock nosedived below $225 which is when I bought it. Their departures were all over the tech news which is what drove the stock down further. I’ve made a lot of money off both Tesla and Apple so I have no ill will towards either. I also know that Apple is too conservative and shrewd to spend that much for pre-profit car company at that time. And Elon wouldn’t have sold to anyone. He makes big bets on himself with no backup plans.

Which engineer? I've never heard of an early Tesla engineer jumping to Apple.
 
Tim Cook was fool not take this offer. Talented people would rather work in Tesla than Apple and it would created value for Apple investors. But good to Tesla customers and investors. Teslas would cost 2x much if Apple owns it.
 
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What claim are you talking about specifically? Elon never made any claims about beating Taycan at sustained performance, except with it comes to the Plaid possibly.



Are you sure? Look at Arezzo, Italy to Naples. Can't do that drive with a Taycan because it's about a 400km drive. If you live in the outer edges of France, you can't use a Taycan without resorting to slow charging.

However, if you look at the Supercharging map, you can all drives in France and Italy from wherever you are with a Model S performance (even the Model 3 standard range plus works).

And Ionity is Europe only. If you're looking for fast charging in USA, only Tesla's Superchaging can enable you to drive literally from point A to point B anywhere in the country.



What's Porsche's self driving plan? So far they've only demonstrated some self driving capability in a workshop. I'm sure Porsche can probably engineer it, but they don't have the data to train their neural nets. Tesla has hundreds of thousands of cars on the road collecting terabytes of real world data to train from. Today Tesla has near full self driving literally running in cars in a beta version. Only thing Tesla hasn't enabled yet is smart auto parking.

It's not a fanboy talking, it's the facts talking. Porsche can steal Tesla's entire vision team (or even better teams) and unless they have the data, they're not going to get very far.


Of course a $100k Porsche is going to beat Tesla's overall build quality. I don't think a single person in the world thinks otherwise.
First of all thanks for the discussion. So uplifting to have a normal talk on the subject without too much fanboyism talk.

The Tesla performance claim stems from
An advertising campaign centered about peak performance stuff. Tesla’s press team is spinning Ludicrous Speed as the thing - yes, it beats most performance cars on the first mile and then it goes to a crawl because Tesla engineers only cared about the ludicrous peak performance number used in advertising.

Let any Tesla race Porsche Taycan for more than three laps on any real racing track and you know what I mean.

Supercharging network can’t be that great when I see Teslas competing with me on loading spots in the public infrastructure. And free supercharger use is as we all know a marketing gimmick that has been used on and off.

Again...Ionity is catching up big time. I could have used Ionity all the way from Cologne (Germany) where I live to Bibione (Italy) where I went for vacation. And the network is only growing stronger with thousands of BEV flooding Europe’s streets per month. If you check the numbers you see that (at least in Europe) Tesla’s market share is dropping every month.

Talking about self driving - you really want to talk about autonomic driving and Porsche in one sentence?!? The essence of Porsche is driving. It is the control of the driver while putting the performance on the street. Target audience of Taycan doesn’t give a hoot about self driving.

Talking about other competing cars Car2X is standard on every new car. This means your perceived advantage of collected data is gone. Because (Car2X you know) maps are irrelevant when real time traffic data becomes more important. And now we don’t want to argue which companies will have more connected cars on the streets.

And last point: Hands down a 50K Volkswagen (I drive one so don’t lecture me there) is running circles around a Tesla regarding build quality. Had to decide between Model 3 and ID.3 and the Volkswagen is cheaper and offers more build quality and bang for the buck.

Tesla has to significantly up their game to stay relevant.
 
I can't believe I just read all of these posts. Lockdown during the holidays is truly mind-numbing.

Anyways, it's wild how much folks are assuming about a few vague sentences that could accurately describe a huge swath of possible events.

Let's really look at Musk's tweet and give him the benefit of the doubt that all of his words were chosen deliberately. (And, I mean, yeah, maybe that's not a safe assumption, but there's nothing to analyze if we just say he could be lying or wrong...)

1. I reached out to Tim Cook to discuss the possibility of Apple acquiring Tesla

and

2. He refused to take the meeting

reduce down to

X. I reached out to discuss; he refused the meeting

There is no way that whatever sequence went down was that simple. Musk didn't call Cook's home line and leave a voicemail on a tape that went, "Tim? I've been trying to get in touch with you...pick up! I know you're there, Tim! You can't ignore me forever!"

In all likelihood, he had his people reach out to Cook's people. It's also pretty telling that he wanted to discuss, but didn't say Cook declined the discussion; he declined the meeting. For all we know there were multiple discussions between them (calls, emails, gift baskets with notes and fruits non-billionaires have never heard of, whatever), but Musk never made a tight elevator pitch to get into the actual meeting room.

When you're talking about a multi-ten-billion dollar acquisition, "THE meeting" is a big deal with lots of execs and lawyers from both sides. Cook almost certainly did not decline the meeting without talking to his people. He almost certainly had an internal Apple meeting, or many, to discuss if they actually wanted to have THE meeting. Cook might make the final executive decision, but the process would have been supported by a whole team of people who work at Apple because they know what they'e doing.

Cook's prowess as a supply chain guy inherently means he sees how pieces fit together—it's why Jobs chose him to run an insanely complex ecosystem—and one gets that way in a company made up of lots of different people by listening to lots of different people. It beggars belief that the man would be as dismissive as the critics here are assuming, and it's just petulance that Musk is trying to drop a mic by reducing Cook's response to a six word sentence. Like, would it change the tone of the tweet if Musk had added "Sad." to the end?

Now, in the abstract, was not buying Tesla an abject blunder? Maybe. But we really can't know right now. If the Apple Car flops and drags the whole company down while Musk rides his Tesla profits to Mars, yeah, sure. Perhaps there would have been no hiccups in the merger and Apple's value would simply be +$515B and Cook would hailed a genius for the purchase. Or maybe Apple would now be under the same anti-competitive scrutiny that Facebook is getting for the Whatsapp and Instagram purchases. It's pretty easy to imagine Apple, after acquiring Tesla, having a virtual monopsony in terms of both engineer hiring power and heavy metal demand. If Apple were severely punished for obliterating whole markets, the Tesla purchase would go down in history as the blunder. Between these extremes are a ton of meh outcomes where Apple is worth some amount more or less and dealing with multiple new headaches of some severity.

I dunno how the exchange went down in real life, and I'm not going to keep speculating on the what if's that will/would decide Blunder v. Not Blunder. My only point is that it's ridiculous to come to any conclusions about the mind of Tim Cook based on a salty tweet from Elon Musk, even taking it at face value.

Oh, and farewelwilliams, dude, if this is the hill you've chosen, we're not gonna be able to fit all your posts on the tombstone.
 
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