Encrypted Messaging App Telegram Files Antitrust Complaint Against Apple With EU

[sw1tcher]

Telegram’s main audience appears to be cyber criminals and extremists.

We must not allow those extremists to have a means to securely communicate and organize. They are a threat to the government.

Telegram, encrypted messaging app, takes steps to protect Hong Kong protesters - National | Globalnews.ca

An update to Telegram will allow protesters to prevent mainland Chinese and Hong Kong authorities from discovering their identities in the app's large group chats.

globalnews.ca

 

[Marbles1]

While I have massive respect for Telegram, demanding that Apple allow the installation from apps from untrusted sources is unacceptable.

This could be a big blow to privacy (the irony!) if Apple is compelled to make this a feature.

Imagine the lay user downloading an app from malicious pop ups thinking it's legitimate.

In terms of trust, there could be process where particular website is certified as being from vendor (e.g. telegram), app could still be 'signed' by apple but hosted elsewhere, or apple could simply reduce its 30% fee and its app store restrictions but keep its gatekeeper 'trust' remit.

 

[R2FX]

While I love Telegram they should have read the small text in user agreement - we do own physical iPhone but Apple only licenses us iOS. If Telegram is hamstrung for cash I'll gladly pay annual fee for some extra features, but whining to EU bureaucrats is a pretty childish move

 

[sw1tcher]

I'm dreaming a day of a Mac app store Only. One source for all the apps: no website, no torrents, no strange site with ads and stupid things. Only one place with huge wall of protections.

No one is forcing you to get your apps outside of Apple's app store.

 

[Scottsdale]

Now think about this as consumers and as developers for a second before ripping everyone. Apple does have a truly unfair advantage. And we buy our Apple devices. We should be able to essentially “unlock” a feature to install third party apps via either known trusted app stores alternative to Apple or to non app stores directly from vendors.

Apple has had plenty of time to get the lead and make it so people want the privacy aspect and get used to the idea of trusting Apple to decide what should be on their iPhone. It’s like only advanced users would probably ever trust this or users who simply don’t care about the experience of trusting apps that don’t have any guarantees of privacy and then apps that have another vendor’s “App Store by Telegram” let’s say privacy and authentication methods.

As an AAPL shareholder, I would hate this. As an American, I want my privacy more than the government wants me to protect it from these tech companies, or even China. As a tech consumer and someone who gives Apple $10k+ annually, damn straight I want the option to put whatever I want on my iPhone. Maybe it will invade my privacy, then that’s my fault. Maybe it will bog down the SoC, then that’s my fault. Maybe it will be a virus, again my risk.

I actually think Apple is big enough that while they may lose 10% of customers from the App Store, 90% would stick with trusting Apple’s way is best for their safety. But for all those that say screw safety and it’s my device as I paid for it, I sure want access to other app stores I may trust or even the lunacy to download apps from a vendor directly and install.

Don’t think of this from your glasses as an Apple Fanboy/girl. Think of this in the same way you think of your computer. You can install the software the way you want, or you can trust the safety of your device only with Apple’s App Store. In my eyes, I am paying $1500 for an iPhone and more for an iPad, I should be able to install whatever the f&$@ I want!

Again, as an Apple Investor, I say hell no they built this platform. They get to decide. Android is a larger platform. There’s no monopoly. Leave Apple alone and waste someone else’s time with your ridiculous threats to Apple. As we all know Apple cares so much about us! Haha. Apple cares but what they really care about is the idea that we all believe our devices our privacy featured as they’re really just locked down.

Think about what you truly want. I wanted an iPhone on Verizon from the beginning. But I had to switch to AT&T. Now it’s available on all carriers and that’s much better for Apple. It was Apple’s, no Steve Jobs’s terrible strategic decision to lock in with AT&T for five years! We would have all benefited if Apple never signed such an agreement. Now think about a future where you as a consumer have the right to install whatever software you want on a piece of hardware you bought. It makes sense to me. And for most, the Apple ecosystem of privacy will still be the way to go.

 

[ravenstar]

But it should at least give the user the option to "work hard" to install software.

What you call "an option to 'work hard' to install software" I call a security flaw. If there's a doorway to install untrusted software, there's a pathway for a malicious agent to install software. Want that ability, then go to Android, but there's a reason all the money is in iOS development.

 

[matteolesinigo]

Reading all these investigations it looks like software development is the only possible job in the world and iOS and Android are the only way of providing services.

Apple worked hard to gain market share with a very well defined value proposition that favors privacy and convenience at the expense of openness of the system. I think they should have the rights to define their rules and the market (I.e. consumers decide).

Telegram is not oblige to develop for iOS, if they would do something so innovative or deliver services that are so amazing that people cannot live without maybe more people would choose android or other platforms where those services are available.

The discussion is getting into slippery territory, by extension we could say that people should be allow to access video publishing on television at low cost or selling staff in largely diffused brick and mortar store.

The only thing that I agree is that there should be rules that Apple should provide APIs to the developer community to access all the functionalities that first party apps have in order to favor competition.

 

[Arbuthnott]

Apple is facing another antitrust complaint in Europe, this time from the developers of encrypted messenger app Telegram.

In a complaint to the EU Commission, the app's creators argue that Apple must give iOS users the opportunity to download software outside of the App Store. The Financial Times reports:

According to the paywalled report, Telegram's complaint recounted how in 2016 it was prevented from launching a gaming platform on the App Store because it was deemed to violate Apple's rules. Telegram subsequently dismantled the venture to avoid "being deleted from the App Store," and claimed that it was "an example of Apple's capacity to curb innovation thanks to its 'monpolistic power' on the app market."

The complaint follows a blog post earlier this week by Telegram founder Pavel Durov in which he takes Apple to task and lists seven "myths" that the company uses to justify its 30 percent commission on apps hosted in the App Store.

Telegram is the third company after Spotify and Rakuten to formally complain to the EU Commission, which is already conducting two investigations into Apple's App Store and Apple Pay.

This antitrust complaint is separate to the ongoing U.S. antitrust current investigation. On Wednesday, Apple CEO Tim Cook defended the company's App Store policies in a congressional hearing.

Article Link: Encrypted Messaging App Telegram Files Antitrust Complaint Against Apple With EU

This is very nice of Telegram to so forcefully lobby for users (like me) to be allowed to download software for iOS outside the App Store. Thank You Telegram. But you should have consulted me first. I am very pleased to have Apple make my software as safe as they reasonably can. And no, I don't want to download software that does not pass muster with Apple. I'm a Telegram user - please let me know if you are planning anything stupid so that I can inform my correspondents and maybe move them to WhatsApp instead.

 

[ravenstar]

Now think about this as consumers and as developers for a second before ripping everyone. Apple does have a truly unfair advantage. And we buy our Apple devices. We should be able to essentially “unlock” a feature to install third party apps via either known trusted app stores alternative to Apple or to non app stores directly from vendors.

I take issue with this premise. Why should you have any ability to anything other than what the device was offering when it was sold? Why is Apple obligated to add features just because you think they should be there? What about all the people who don't think those features should be there?

 

[supremedesigner]

...Apple must give iOS users the opportunity to download software outside of the App Store..

Hard NO. I would not trust any apps from untrusted sources even coming from Telegram that can risk my iOS devices. It is unacceptable.

Too many websites have 'legitimate' apps nowadays outside of app store.

 

[Arbuthnott]

It’s a typical monopoly abuse situation. Developers have no choice but to develop for the Apple platforms if they want to survive. And Apple abuses that fact by asking unreasonably high fees.

Who says these are "unreasonably high fees"?

 

[Mr. Heckles]

Do you have any proof of that? I find it somewhat doubtful that all 400 million users are criminals and extremists.

I agree, I use it and I’m not a criminal. I think it’s a great messaging app.

 

[canesalato]

This is very nice of Telegram to so forcefully lobby for users (like me) to be allowed to download software for iOS outside the App Store. Thank You Telegram. But you should have consulted me first. I am very pleased to have Apple make my software as safe as they reasonably can. And no, I don't want to download software that does not pass muster with Apple. I'm a Telegram user - please let me know if you are planning anything stupid so that I can inform my correspondents and maybe move them to WhatsApp instead.

Please, switch to WhatsApp, where your data and personal info will be safe in the wise hands of Facebook, with Apple's blessing.

 

[Grohowiak]

You may not realize this, but there are thousands upon thousands of free apps on the app store that Apple doesn't get any money from.

That's where you and most people are fundamentally wrong.
They already made thousands cause you had to buy their hardware and register as a developer. Upfront.

 

[macfacts]

I am excited how this plays out but I am sure this will take forever and will just be forgotten.

it would be great to have the OPTION to check „allow installing apps from 3rd party sources“ and a pop up quickly explaining the potential risks so Apple isn’t liable.

There's no evidence apple would be liable for any risks. No one has sued desktop os manufacturers.

 

[az431]

Macs allow apps to be downloaded using the browser, why can’t the iPhone?

Because apps that you download via a browser are not signed.

 

[Abazigal]

Now think about this as consumers and as developers for a second before ripping everyone. Apple does have a truly unfair advantage. And we buy our Apple devices. We should be able to essentially “unlock” a feature to install third party apps via either known trusted app stores alternative to Apple or to non app stores directly from vendors.

Apple has had plenty of time to get the lead and make it so people want the privacy aspect and get used to the idea of trusting Apple to decide what should be on their iPhone. It’s like only advanced users would probably ever trust this or users who simply don’t care about the experience of trusting apps that don’t have any guarantees of privacy and then apps that have another vendor’s “App Store by Telegram” let’s say privacy and authentication methods.

As an AAPL shareholder, I would hate this. As an American, I want my privacy more than the government wants me to protect it from these tech companies, or even China. As a tech consumer and someone who gives Apple $10k+ annually, damn straight I want the option to put whatever I want on my iPhone. Maybe it will invade my privacy, then that’s my fault. Maybe it will bog down the SoC, then that’s my fault. Maybe it will be a virus, again my risk.

I actually think Apple is big enough that while they may lose 10% of customers from the App Store, 90% would stick with trusting Apple’s way is best for their safety. But for all those that say screw safety and it’s my device as I paid for it, I sure want access to other app stores I may trust or even the lunacy to download apps from a vendor directly and install.

Don’t think of this from your glasses as an Apple Fanboy/girl. Think of this in the same way you think of your computer. You can install the software the way you want, or you can trust the safety of your device only with Apple’s App Store. In my eyes, I am paying $1500 for an iPhone and more for an iPad, I should be able to install whatever the f&$@ I want!

Again, as an Apple Investor, I say hell no they built this platform. They get to decide. Android is a larger platform. There’s no monopoly. Leave Apple alone and waste someone else’s time with your ridiculous threats to Apple. As we all know Apple cares so much about us! Haha. Apple cares but what they really care about is the idea that we all believe our devices our privacy featured as they’re really just locked down.

Think about what you truly want. I wanted an iPhone on Verizon from the beginning. But I had to switch to AT&T. Now it’s available on all carriers and that’s much better for Apple. It was Apple’s, no Steve Jobs’s terrible strategic decision to lock in with AT&T for five years! We would have all benefited if Apple never signed such an agreement. Now think about a future where you as a consumer have the right to install whatever software you want on a piece of hardware you bought. It makes sense to me. And for most, the Apple ecosystem of privacy will still be the way to go.

Alternatively, think of it this way.

Because there is only one way of getting apps onto my iOS device, developers have no choice but to capitulate and put their apps onto the iOS App Store, which amongst other things means that their apps have to abide by App Store rules. So no funny business.

As a user, there is no real downside for me. Most of the apps I want will still be there, and I have the peace of mind that they have been vetted and cleared by Apple beforehand.

Conversely, give developers the notion that there is even the slightest chance they could get users to bypass the iOS App Store and get users to download apps on their terms and they will do precisely that, often more for their own benefit than that of the end user.

I am not saying that the iOS App Store system is perfect. Rather, I am saying that it’s a package deal. As android as shown, there isn’t really any way to divorce the benefits from the drawbacks. There will always be people who think that they are very smart and that the rules shouldn’t have to apply to them, not realising that they are the outlier and for each such individual who is savvy enough to take the necessary precautions, there are probably 100 others who think they are smart enough but actually aren’t. That’s who the rules are there for.

In all, I find that the advantages of the App Store still outweigh the cons for me, I happily accept the compromises, realising that they are a necessary trade off, and I wonder why the people desiring benefits such as being able to sideload apps don’t just move to android which allows them to do precisely this.

 

[malkovich87]

This is very nice of Telegram to so forcefully lobby for users (like me) to be allowed to download software for iOS outside the App Store. Thank You Telegram. But you should have consulted me first. I am very pleased to have Apple make my software as safe as they reasonably can. And no, I don't want to download software that does not pass muster with Apple. I'm a Telegram user - please let me know if you are planning anything stupid so that I can inform my correspondents and maybe move them to WhatsApp instead.

I honestly don‘t think you‘ve read what the complaint was about.

 

[nylonsteel]

"...Telegram is the third company after Spotify and Rakuten to formally complain to the EU Commission, which is already conducting two investigations into Apple's App Store and Apple Pay...."
man - aapl has to defend against so many pesky lawsuits
hope aapl legal depertment is earning its pay by winning

 

[az431]

It’s a typical monopoly abuse situation. Developers have no choice but to develop for the Apple platforms if they want to survive. And Apple abuses that fact by asking unreasonably high fees.

Nonsense. Apple doesn't enslave developers and force them to write apps for iOS. A developer wanting to leverage Apple's 1.4 billion devices in exchange for 70% of the revenue is doing so willingly.

If you are a developer and don't like Apple's terms, you are free to write apps for Android, Windows, Mac, web, etc. Plenty of developers write apps for one ecosystem, and do just fine.

The developers who are complaning are mostly large firms like Spotify, that could care less about small independent developers, and are only looking to pad their own pockets.

 

[diamond.g]

It sounded like they wanted to set up something like xCloud.

Which Apple still isn’t allowing on their platform.

 

[johannnn]

Lol another dev that want everything for free. Exposure to million of customers just 1 click away? Free! A safe payment system? Free! Everything for free!

 

[az431]

Alternatively, think of it this way.

Because there is only one way of getting apps onto my iOS device, developers have no choice but to capitulate and put their apps onto the iOS App Store, which amongst other things means that their apps have to abide by App Store rules. So no funny business.

This is a ridiculous way to "think" about it, and that's using the word think pretty loosely.

You might as well be saying that Best Buy should be forced to let Samsung sell TVs in their parking lot, if Samsung feels that Best Buy takes too large a cut if by selingl directly to Best Buy.

The fact that a lot of people own iOS devices doesn't mean that developers are "forced" into developing for iOS, just like Samsung is not forced to sell TVs through Best Buy simply because Best Buy has a near monopoly on brick and mortar electronics retail.

This is Apple's store, and it has every right to dictate terms. If a developer or consumer don't like those terms (and many don't), they can go elsewhere (and plenty do).

You can't simply narrow a market to a single vendor or store, ignore every other vendor, and say that the single vendor is a monopoly. That is not how a market is defined under antitrust law in any country on this planet, and that is unlikely to change.
[automerge]1596115519[/automerge]

Lol another dev that want everything for free. Exposure to million of customers just 1 click away? Free! A safe payment system? Free! Everything for free!

Exactly. Spotify, Telegram, Hey, and the rest want access to 1.4 billion devices without paying a single penny. Screw them.

 

[Wildkraut]

Hard NO. I would not trust any apps from untrusted sources even coming from Telegram that can risk my iOS devices. It is unacceptable.

Too many websites have 'legitimate' apps nowadays outside of app store.

I can list uncountable professional apps in here, starting with databases and ending with CADCAM, without which our current world wouldn’t even exist in the way it does. And all these Apps *whisper - whisper* only exists outside the App Store and runs on these so called “open / insecure” systems.

 

[dlondon]

Interesting how companies want to use Apple's platform but not pay Apple any fees.

Clearly companies want their apple pie and to eat it too.

Apple Music is available on Android via the Play Store but Apple requires users to sign up via an Apple ID, bypassing the Play Store. It seems Apple is happy to eat their cake on Android but isn't so happy to allow the same on iOS. Of course, Google allows this so Apple isn't breaking any rules, but their argument that you can't expect a free ride is less valid when they (one of the most valuable companies in the world) do this themselves.