Epic CEO Tim Sweeney Admits App Store's 30% Cut Is Similar to Consoles, Would Have Accepted Special Deal With Apple

[wanha]

I am really confused if/how EPIC thinks they can win this...

What is in it for them? Beyond a slim chance of winning?

Is it the 'all publicity is good publicity' mindset? Not to mention they are losing out on iOS revenue? And look like a spoiled entitled brat?

It seems pretty clear that Epic has little chance of winning this court case.

However, the added scrutiny on Apple's App Store policies may well result to some drastic government action both in the US and Europe. If it does, that would be the big win for Epic regardless of how this particular court case pans out.

 

[Peter_M]

I can side with Apple on this legal fight and still believe 30% is too high.

Fair enough.

My own (admittedly very rough) napkin math estimates that Apple would need to charge 20% minimum in order for the App Store to break even (after accounting for the annual developer fees).

So as a consumer, I support a 30% cut that will go towards ensuring the continued viability and vitality of the iOS App Store, which in turn goes towards a better experience for me, the end user. Especially when any reduction in this is not going to result in a lower app price for me anyways.

Companies like epic and Microsoft don’t have anywhere near the support or the reach of the App Store. It’s easy to charge less when you are doing less for the money.

If Apple needs a minimum 20% fee to break even, then they seriously need to rethink how they run the App Store IMO. The App Store shouldn't be misused to create a huge revenue stream, but offer a reasonably priced distribution platform. Now it's being used to extort enormous amounts of money from developers and software/game companies. Apple and Steam offer a very high quality service, and they obviously deserve to get paid properly - but not a 30% cut.

I applaud Microsoft and Epic to only offer a 12% sales cut on games, but admittedly that might be too low as a long term solution for Epic, who are loosing money on their store at that rate (which is probably also related to their weekly free game deals). Epic, with all their faults (like any other company), are doing something positive for the gaming industry here.

 

[gnasher729]

Apple didn’t give any special deals to even Netflix. For a ver long time you couldn’t sign up for Amazon Prime Video on iOS for similar reasons. If Apple wasn’t giving breaks to Netflix and Amazon, why would he think Epic would get a break?

You still can't sign up to Amazon Prime Video _on iOS_. You sign up on the Amazon website. Or on your TV. Of course you can USE prime video on your iPhone or iPad. And with many TVs, you can basically use the Prime Video app as a remote control for your TV. (May I mention that I bought a new Samsung TV, when my old Samsung TV broke down after about 13 years.)

 

[swarlos]

So literally Epic are big cry babies like Spotify, got it.

 

[gnasher729]

If Apple needs a minimum 20% fee to break even from their App Store, then they seriously need to rethink how they run the App Store IMO. The App Store shouldn't be misused to create a huge revenue stream, but a reasonably priced distribution platform. Now it's instead being used as a way to extort enormous amounts of money from developers and software/game companies, which is a shady practice at best. Apple and Steam offer a very high quality service, and they obviously deserve to get paid properly - but not a 30% cut.

Every department store does exactly the same thing and has done for the last 100 years. Oh all these shady practices. Apple also pays for the distribution of all kinds of free apps. From an app that shows me the train time table, to the various Covid Track&Trace apps, and so on.

 

[Wildkraut]

The internet would like to introduce itself to you.

I just found out Cubasis, an app I don’t own, was updated to be a version I might want INCLUDING information on what those new features are AND that it’s currently on sale via Reddit. I also found some videos of it on YouTube. I found out about a new app from MSXII Sound Design on Instagram and found out about a new Drone app I didn’t know about from AudioLab’s website.

Are there people that, with access to the entire internet, choose to make ALL of their App purchasing decisions via the AppStore? I don’t know, but if you KNOW any, please direct them to “google.com”. It may take a few times for them to get it right, but it’s FAR more valuable for discovery than the AppStore.

Ladiiiiiiesss and Gentlemannnsssssss, pllllleeeeeassseee join me and welcome THEEEE Unregistered 4UUUUUuuuuuu...!!!
One of the first Die Hard Apple Fanboys, that managed to use the Hax0rw3b and found useful software which can be installed through a.k.a. */me whispers* side-loading.

Sir, please explain to us, how did you master this dangerous journey towards the address bar?
Did you use a fully charged Apple MAGIC Mouse, which charged the whole night upside-down resting and preparing the fight?
Did you slowly and carefully move your mouse cursor, and shaked it to outsmart these Evil Hax0Rs trying to trap your cursor, just like a Ninja in the dark?
What kind of magic words did you type into that filthy wonderbar to get these useful results?

Sorry, but You beautifully explained why the AppStore is totally obsolete, it just sucks and was build to lock-in.
You don't need Superpower to get into the Web, find good software and install it, nor it's dangerous like people in here use to say.

All we need is side-loading, the rest will simply follow.
The ones who fear the Hax0rw3b will continue be able to stay behind the curtains in the AppStore and purchase their Apps from there.

 

[Peter_M]

Every department store does exactly the same thing and has done for the last 100 years. Oh all these shady practices. Apple also pays for the distribution of all kinds of free apps. From an app that shows me the train time table, to the various Covid Track&Trace apps, and so on.

Well, we're in new times with new technology, which demands new solutions (just like Apple trying to get away with paying a 0.2% income tax by registering in Ireland). At the very least, Apple needs a more differentiated model, instead of pushing a 30% cut across the line on the App Store.

This is the same type of simplistic argument being used, when arguing for Facebook, Google, Youtube, Twitter etc. being private companies, that should be allowed to interfere in elections, and censor and remove news articles, posts and users at their own will - without any real oversight or restrictions.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Ladiiiiiiesss and Gentlemannnsssssss, pllllleeeeeassseee join me and welcome THEEEE Unregistered 4UUUUUuuuuuu...!!!
One of the first Die Hard Apple Fanboys, that managed to use the Hax0rw3b and found useful software which can be installed through a.k.a. */me whispers* side-loading.

Sir, please explain to us, how did you master this dangerous journey towards the address bar?
Did you use a fully charged Apple MAGIC Mouse, which charged the whole night upside-down resting and preparing the fight?
Did you slowly and carefully move your mouse cursor, and shaked it to outsmart these Evil Hax0Rs trying to trap your cursor, just like a Ninja in the dark?
What kind of magic words did you type into that filthy wonderbar to get these useful results?

Sorry, but You beautifully explained why the AppStore is totally obsolete, it just sucks and was build to lock-in.
You don't need Superpower to get into the Web, find good software and install it, nor it's dangerous like people in here use to say.

All we need is side-loading, the rest will simply follow.
The ones who fear the Hax0rw3b will continue be able to stay behind the curtains in the AppStore and purchase their Apps from there.

I… I don’t think “App Discovery” means what you think it does

 

[Abazigal]

If Apple needs a minimum 20% fee to break even, then they seriously need to rethink how they run the App Store IMO. The App Store shouldn't be misused to create a huge revenue stream, but offer a reasonably priced distribution platform. Now it's being used to extort enormous amounts of money from developers and software/game companies. Apple and Steam offer a very high quality service, and they obviously deserve to get paid properly - but not a 30% cut.

I applaud Microsoft and Epic to only offer a 12% sales cut on games, but admittedly that might be too low as a long term solution for Epic, who are loosing money on their store at that rate (which is probably also related to their weekly free game deals). Epic, with all their faults (like any other company), are doing something positive for the gaming industry here.

To date, I have not seen a better solution from anyone beyond “open up the App Store” to “subsidise it with iphone profits”. Microsoft and Epic can likely get away with charging less because they are probably not doing as much to run a curated App Store the same way Apple is.

Here’s my thought process.

Free apps earn Apple no money beyond that annual $99 developer fee, but I am guessing it costs Apple more than that to support. But it is these free indie apps that add to the vitality and viability of the platform.

On the other side, we have free apps that serve as portals to other services, like facebook, youtube, Uber, your local banking app. Same issue as above, where they are costing Apple money.

Yet to me, I disagree with the solution that the solution should be to open up the App Store the same way macOS is run because I find value in the vetting process every app is put through, even if Apple doesn’t always catch every offender.

It’s the same logic as law enforcement not being to catch every criminal, or border police not being able to intercept every shipment of drugs before it enters the country, but you don’t go about calling for the police force to be disbanded just because they aren’t able to stop 100% of all crime in the city.

Let’s run on the assumption that the iOS App Store in the very least deserves to be run at a break-even rate. Where then is the money going to come from? It’s the paid apps and gaming IAPs that basically fund the App Store that benefits the rest of the developers. Lower their cut in the name of some arbitrary concept of “fairness” and even the slightest reduction is going to result in a sharp decline in revenue collected.

Besides, charge 25% or even 20% and it’s not really going to be much different for these companies. They are never going to be fully satisfied until they can keep 100% of the money for themselves, which as I outlined above, is not really desirable from an end user POV.

The TL;DR is that there isn’t going to be a solution which makes everyone happy, and maybe this makes me a terrible person for even saying it, but I guess I am happy that Apple wields enough influence over the App Store that they are able to push the bulk of this externality to developers, and not me, the end user.

 

[quarkysg]

The TL;DR is that there isn’t going to be a solution which makes everyone happy, and maybe this makes me a terrible person for even saying it, but I guess I am happy that Apple wields enough influence over the App Store that they are able to push the bulk of this externality to developers, and not me, the end user.

Not in the least. If a developer wants to earn revenue and make a profit, they better work hard to get it. Trying to earn a quick buck is never a solution. Build something desirable and the money will come.

 

[amartinez1660]

"At the conclusion of today's questioning, Sweeney was asked what he would do if Epic Games loses the case. In response, he said that Apple would be able to cut off Fortnite and remove Epic Games from the developer program for any reason. 'We would have to live with not supporting the iOS platform,' he said."

Seems like an empty threat. Nintendo or Sony could do the same thing. Besides, Apple's does not cut developers off for just no reason.

And the only ones who gets hurt here if they take their ball and go home are themselves. Other game developers will swoop in and happily sell their games to iOS users.

Agreed, but also devs in general (and ultimately the users) get hurt if Epic and Unreal Engine just disappear from the Mac and build support for iOS platforms... it’s already behind without raytracing support (it’s only on NVidia RTXs to my knowledge) and things like the recent MetaHuman characters tool has a few features missing here and there (hair strands simulations do not work on MacOS for example).

I just wish they would all come to an agreement, these things in general just halts advancements and adoption both for users and devs that would feel enticed to take a stab at doing something...
In Blender native rendering support is light years ahead on performance on Windows compared to Mac, ridiculously ahead 😞.

 

[ruka.snow]

I applaud Microsoft and Epic to only offer a 12% sales cut on games, but admittedly that might be too low as a long term solution for Epic, who are loosing money on their store at that rate (which is probably also related to their weekly free game deals). Epic, with all their faults (like any other company), are doing something positive for the gaming industry here.

Applaud Microsoft for their 12% cut. They offer that on similar terms and features as Apple, Google, and Valve. Epic don't do anything for their 12% and it costs you more to sell there than any competing store.

 

[quarkysg]

Agreed, but also devs in general (and ultimately the users) get hurt if Epic and Unreal Engine just disappear from the Mac and build support for iOS platforms... it’s already behind without raytracing support (it’s only on NVidia RTXs to my knowledge) and things like the recent MetaHuman characters tool has a few features missing here and there (hair strands simulations do not work on MacOS for example).

I just wish they would all come to an agreement, these things in general just halts advancements and adoption both for users and devs that would feel enticed to take a stab at doing something...
In Blender native rendering support is light years ahead on performance on Windows compared to Mac, ridiculously ahead 😞.

There're no permanent enemies. Steve job made peace with Bill Gates when he returned to Apple. It's always about economic benefit in the world of business. EPIC wouldn't pull this stunt if the iOS/macOS base is pulling in tons of revenue for them. Maybe the situation will change with the Apple Silicon Macs in a few years.

 

[SurferPup]

There is a business opportunity for a competing gaming company to fill Epic's iOS absence and consider creating a similar game to Fortnight as Epic is directing their financial resources towards the  legal battle. Epic is in a weakened state to challenge a large overseas based company, like Sony, for a potential copyright infringement.

 

[diamond.g]

There is a business opportunity for a competing gaming company to fill Epic's iOS absence and consider creating a similar game to Fortnight as Epic is directing their financial resources towards the  legal battle. Epic is in a weakened state to challenge a large overseas based company, like Sony, for a potential copyright infringement.

PUBG and CoD:Mobile already compete with Fortnite.

 

[mech986]

Epic is a Raleigh, NC area company. Welcome to the South.

Yes, but guess who is building a whole new tech campus in Raleigh? And for what reasons?

 

[no_idea]

This is too funny…does Epic really believe they have a leg to stand on or is this just for fanfare?

 

[BvizioN]

EU will come to the rescue anyway.

EU is useless corrupted bureaucratic system that is going to fail at some point.

 

[Souponastick270]

oh boy, somebody should make a movie about this trial.

Coming to AppleTV in 2022…

 

[ruka.snow]

EU is useless corrupted bureaucratic system that is going to fail at some point.

The EU will be here long after the other nations collapse in on their own greed. They will keep fighting to make the world a better place.

 

[lestmak]

There is a hole in the wall next to the courtroom where Epic's lawyers have banged a hole through with their heads yesterday.

 

[jonnysods]

This is kind of damning isn't it??

 

[Wildkraut]

EU is useless corrupted bureaucratic system that is going to fail at some point.

Says the guy with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister, and a "Queen" who has nothing to say.

 

[kmann1983]

I think thd drive the point home, Apple should not allow third party binaries on MacOS. Only Appstore approved binaries should be allowed. After all, don't you want to be safe? Won't don't you want to be safe?!

 

[orthorim]

Case is pretty weak but EPIC is right, Apple having App store monopoly is ridiculous

You know why the government doesn't file an anti-trust case against Apple and their app store monopoly?

Because app store monopoly means the government can at any point tell Apple to ban any app it wants Apple to ban, thereby the governments of the world - especially the big ones, like China, USA, but even the small ones, can censor anything they want off the app store. It's a win - win, the only loser is you.