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Epic want to be the marketplace and they are shoehorning themselves in where they can to start the incursion. This is literally just the start of things. We are facing battle of the store fronts.

Really all games companies, who are universally terrible, and all app stores need to die quickly and we need to go back to generic non-account tied computing without a sales channel being the primary software delivery mechanism.

We risk losing everything we gained from personal computing at this point. And it will be at the hands of the least respectable players in the game.
The only way to mitigate the risks is to maintain an open platform. Look what happened to the internet when social media and search companie became the gatekeepers. The open internet still exists but how many people have sacrificed utility for convenience?

Although Steam is dominant in PC software sales you can still offer your product openly via the internet if you so wish. Hand-in-hand with an educational program advocating personal responsibility on the part of users needs to be an opening of the wider market.
 
Except it's not a person. It's a few of the wealthiest companies on the face of the planet who stand to make billions more by engaging in the very behavior Tim is describing.
Epic isn't "crying" as you say. They've taken direct action and are continuing to take action against what they perceive as wrong.
Crying is what is happening on these very forums by people defending these unfathomably rich overlords.
Go take a peek at Epic’s and Dick Sweeny’s value.

It’s no different than a company selling multivitamins at Walmart saying they take too much of a cut.

If you don’t like it, then stop using their damn platform.

You know, the one that spent billions building.
 
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It’s YOUR phone, you should be able to do whatever you want with it including turning it into an aquarium.

You are right, it is YOUR phone.

But it's NOT your software that's running it. You neither own the SW nor are allowed to alter it (that's what the licensing agreement you've agreed to says)

In other words, you are free to do anything you want with your HW - break it, use it as a shoe, turn it into an acquarium.

Apple doesn't care, they'll happily sell you another phone.
 
The only way to mitigate the risks is to maintain an open platform. Look what happened to the internet when social media and search companie became the gatekeepers. The open internet still exists but how many people have sacrificed utility for convenience?

Although Steam is dominant in PC software sales you can still offer your product openly via the internet if you so wish. Hand-in-hand with an educational program advocating personal responsibility on the part of users needs to be an opening of the wider market.

Agree on all points. This is absolutely the correct way forwards.

Windows is surprisingly better on this side of things.
 
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Typical Sweeney. Next, he’ll file lawsuits against competing store apps on smart devices when they launch.
I’m looking forward to the day EPIC becomes a gatekeeper and us forced to open up. Sweeney will be hoisted by his own petard.
 
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There are certainly problems with excessive lawsuits, but there are sometimes, when the defendant is such a massive corporation, well represented, it’s even less of a nuisance than a parking ticket. And the benefits probably out weigh the risks. Presumably Epic’s lawyers will survive an early motion to dismiss, and be permitted to start discovery.

This should result in a dismissal with prejudice.

While not impose that would be a little extreme before discovery. Perhaps an order for guard rails to reduce the fishing expedition until some proofs can be met.

I feel like it should too, but correct me if I'm wrong, sadly it's apparently totally legal. And part of the way lawsuits are used as harassment and intimidation.

Pretty sure they can sue for discovery. And Google and Samsung legally have to waste time coming up with potential evidence. Fortunately for them, they can afford it. And fortunately for all of them, smaller companies can't so are often bullied in to settling.

It's gross and it's exactly what I'd expect from them but sadly it just might work.

You can generally sue and be sued for anything, though you might suffer penalties for frivolous ones. And suing for discovery is possible but not common. Doesn’t look like what this is.

A dismissal with prejudice means Epic would have to pay the attorney fees of Samsung and Google here.

[…]

No, that by itself would not award attorneys fees in the US.

I agree on the sentiment, but how are Google & Samsung supposed to come up with evidence for something they didn't do?

Their lawyers will be required to turn over responses to discovery, and reliance on those lawyers to disclose accurately is the standard. So lack of evidence produced will be something the finder of fact can weigh.
 
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I agree on the sentiment, but how are Google & Samsung supposed to come up with evidence for something they didn't do?

They are supposed to just produce every single document they have that might have anything to do with it. Contracts and all the details. I'm not a lawyer so I don't even know all the types of documents, but probably emails, etc.

Then Sweeney's lawyers get to go through it trying to cherry pick things that look bad.
 
There are certainly problems with excessive lawsuits, but there are sometimes, when the defendant is such a massive corporation, well represented, it’s even less of a nuisance than a parking ticket. And the benefits probably out weigh the risks. Presumably Epic’s lawyers will survive an early motion to dismiss, and be permitted to start discovery.



While not impose that would be a little extreme before discovery. Perhaps an order for guard rails to reduce the fishing expedition until some proofs can be met.



You can generally sue and be sued for anything, though you might suffer penalties for frivolous ones. And suing for discovery is possible but not common. Doesn’t look like what this is.



No, that by itself would not award attorneys fees in the US.



Their lawyers will be required to turn over responses to discovery, and reliance on those lawyers to disclose accurately is the standard. So lack of evidence produced will be something the finder of fact can weigh.

Since it sounds like you know what you're talking about, I think my terminology was just wrong. They aren't suing for discovery, it's that discovery is just part of what will happen if the suit goes forward, right?
 
Sure, he may be looking out for Epic's interests, but that doesn't change the fact that these lawsuits Epic has been filing have been and will be benefiting all developers.

All companies just optimize for themselves, but Epic is currently the only real counterbalance to the Apple and Google duopoly, so regardless of what the motivation is, a side effect of it is that it benefits all customers and developers.

It benefits all developers, even the shady af ones. And No, it doesn’t benefit “all customers”. He wants to trade user safety for corporate profit. That’s fine for the CEO of a for profit company, but let’s not pretend he’s Robin Hood.

Earendil is correct that it won't benefit "all customers".

But I think you are both wrong that it will benefit "all developers".

It will certainly benefit some developers. Likely the ones it will benefit the most are the ones with redundant services to what Google (and Apple) are offering. Things like hosting services, payment services, international market support, marketing/ad systems, etc... Interestingly enough, these are not the small developers everyone seems to mention when talking about how "predatory" App Stores are.

The devs who might not benefit are the ones who are not paying the 30% fee. The ones that don't have sunk cost in infrastructure to support payments and mass marketing. They may find themselves in a situation they might loose customer exposure due to reduced/fractured traffic in specific App Stores. They may find themselves making multiple and varied agreements with several providers which will also mean maintaining those relationships, which takes time and energy and in some cases consultations with legal resources.

As a developer, there is some benefit to having a single distribution layer for your applications. For some developers that could be immensely helpful and for others it might not matter much. What we know for sure is that in the boxed software world developers often had teams of employees that work with specific retailers/stores. Mostly because each retailer/store operated differently.

Does that mean that in the near future when the utopian vision of 50,000+ App Stores being available per platform (because if competition is good, then more competition must be better), that each small developer is going to need to have a support team for each of those Stores. Maybe it means that, maybe it doesnt.

If we dismiss the App Store option and just go to everything being side loaded. Then some small developers are going to have to increase their outlay for tech support. Larger companies will likely be able to absorb this additional cost into their already large support systems. Unless there is some magic in side loading where nothing ever goes wrong.

There are a lot of "mays" and "mights" in this post. Mostly because, if we are honest about all of this, we don't "know" how it is going to impact the overall industry. Real experts acknowledge the uncertainty in all this. They acknowledge that an application market for iOS or Android doesn't have a direct analogous in history. People that are very confident in their assumptions and the related outcomes tend to be politicians or politicians pretending to be CEOs or other "experts".

The reality is that when you take more than 6 billion users and attempt to unify a solution, many problems are going to arise and you are going to fail at least several billion people. Even with macro segmentation of user interest you are going to have groups that value different aspects of any solution. Some users are going to prioritize simplicity, others security, others cost, experience, fairness (philosophical, market, opportunity, outcome, etc...), flexibility, inoperability, openness, closeness, or whatever X is that day.
 
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I have said this since the beginning, Android being “open” isn’t as “open” as these people want. I knew Epic would start down this path and see others following as well. Expect Android to change too so it’s not as “difficult” to side load.

Expect things to eventually act like Windows which I DO NOT want to see because I think cell phones should have more security in place.
 
There are certainly problems with excessive lawsuits, but there are sometimes, when the defendant is such a massive corporation, well represented, it’s even less of a nuisance than a parking ticket. And the benefits probably out weigh the risks. Presumably Epic’s lawyers will survive an early motion to dismiss, and be permitted to start discovery.



While not impose that would be a little extreme before discovery. Perhaps an order for guard rails to reduce the fishing expedition until some proofs can be met.



You can generally sue and be sued for anything, though you might suffer penalties for frivolous ones. And suing for discovery is possible but not common. Doesn’t look like what this is.



No, that by itself would not award attorneys fees in the US.



Their lawyers will be required to turn over responses to discovery, and reliance on those lawyers to disclose accurately is the standard. So lack of evidence produced will be something the finder of fact can weigh.

Surely getting the trial to discovery requires that they have some evidence for their suit even in the US???
 
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It’s YOUR phone, you should be able to do whatever you want with it including turning it into an aquarium.
This is a tired argument that rests entirely outside of a functional understanding of how commerce and Intellectual Property Rights work. It's not something that was invented by tech companies. It has existed for a long time, at least since about the year 1710, when the idea of a copyright was first extended to book publishers.

Say I fall in love with a Painting. I can buy the physical painting from the painter, and hang it on my wall. But I can't (generally) use the painting in the Logo for my company unless I have also negotiated a licensing agreement with the painter to use their work in that way. Owning the physical item and using the intellectual property are two different transactions. This is long held and settled law in most western market economies. And that's a good thing.

On the back of your iPhone is an Apple logo. Are you also suggesting that buying the phone gives you unlimited use of that Apple logo, since you bought the phone? Of course not. And you understand that, right?
 
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at first glance I call bulls**t.

It's a feature that can be turned off during setup, **and** can be temporarily turned off for exactly what is needed, side loading.

Anyone wanting to side load, can easily look it up, or if they even know what it is can turn off the feature to allow it.
Also shouldn't epic I don't know, set up an actual store that can be "registered" as an alternative and have "known" apps and games on it (like the amazon App Store)? wouldn't that solve the problem overall?

Edit: Added amazon App Store reference to clarify what I am talking about
 
In Tim Epic's defense - Samsung's Auto Blocker is draconian and redundant. Android already has these same features built into the source.

If anything, it's nice to see him argue with Samsung for once instead of just Apple and Google.
 
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At first incidence the user should simply be asked if wants to keep on installing even thought it was not sold by Samsung App Store. The user then decides to proceed, not to proceed or buy only from Samsung Store.

Simple.

As it is, the system is slandering any other distribution channels.

Of course any Store would say that it’s safer to buy products or services from them than anywhere else. Any store would say that it offers the best products.

Imagine a restaurant fear mongering their customers regarding eating anywhere else. Imagine this in banking, insurance, … whatever. Slander by policy.

It seams that some people lost any sort of common sense when it comes to what these businesses say regarding their Retail business compared to other distribution channels. So much so that users actually negotiate against themselves on their own properties. Crazy.

Cheers.
 
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Apple may have proven difficult, but I'm sure it'll be pretty easy to make a case against Google, given Android's previous track record.
 
Earendil is correct that it won't benefit "all customers".

But I think you are both wrong that it will benefit "all developers".

It will certainly benefit some developers. Likely the ones it will benefit the most are the ones with redundant services to what Google (and Apple) are offering.

I agree with your entire point. I think the angle I was trying to take was “I’ll give you all developers, but the consequence of all developers is making it easier for scam developers as well.

I have said this since the beginning, Android being “open” isn’t as “open” as these people want. I knew Epic would start down this path and see others following as well. Expect Android to change too so it’s not as “difficult” to side load.

Expect things to eventually act like Windows which I DO NOT want to see because I think cell phones should have more security in place.

Agreed. I think half the reason desktops get away with being as open as they are in 2024 is because they aren’t as ubiquitous a computer device. Most Americans don’t even own a desktop, and do all their banking on their phone. Theirs a whole cohort of people that went from banking in person to banking on a phone. Desktops are by and large used by more tech/internet savvy people than phones are.

Just look at the corporate world and the large sophisticated teams it takes to keep the companies desktops secure in today’s environment. And the many (too many) companies that don’t have large sophisticated teams losing data faster than a sieve.

In Tim Epic's defense - Samsung's Auto Blocker is draconian and redundant. Android already has these same features built into the source.

I wasn’t aware this didn’t just replace Google’s. How do they overlap? How is the Samsung one more draconian? An option at install, and another upon attempt to install doesn’t seem to draconian, but maybe that’s not the whole picture?

As it is, the system is slandering any other distribution channels.

Of course any Store would say that it’s safer to buy products or services from them than anywhere else. Any store would say that it offers the best products.

Imagine a restaurant fear mongering their customers regarding eating anywhere else. Imagine this in banking, insurance, … whatever. Slander by policy.

Aren’t you arguing with yourself? Of course they would but also imagine if they did? I think my response is that I don’t need to imagine, sales people the world over disparage (“slander” has a legal definition that doesn’t apply) the competition OR warn against using cheaper/inferior products. Both can be done accurately and in good faith, or not.

Have you ever seen a notification warning you that you’re leaving the current website/app and being directed to a new website/app? I’m curious if you think that’s disparaging, or an accurate heads up?
 
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I wasn’t aware this didn’t just replace Google’s. How do they overlap? How is the Samsung one more draconian? An option at install, and another upon attempt to install doesn’t seem to draconian, but maybe that’s not the whole picture?

Epic claims that there are 21 steps to disable Samsung's Auto Block, whereas the standard Android implementation only requires maybe 4 steps. I'm unable to verify since I have not owned a samsung phone in years and this is a new feature apparently.

Auto Block also prevents other things by default, like using a PC to install software updates. Sounds like a bad idea - how are you supposed to fix your phone if an android update borks it?
 
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Epic claims that there are 21 steps to disable Samsung's Auto Block, whereas the standard Android implementation only requires maybe 4 steps. I'm unable to verify since I have not owned a samsung phone in years and this is a new feature apparently.

21?! Damnit, that’s a bigger UI sin than anti-competitive sin :p
Forgoing the use of search or Siri, I don’t think any iPhone setting is more than 10 away at most? I guess they’d have to show it’s uniquely 21 away, and not that Samsung UI is so bad that most setting are 21+ away.

Auto Block also prevents other things by default, like using a PC to install software updates. Sounds like a bad idea - how are you supposed to fix your phone if an android update borks it?

Like a few other examples, this sounds like the sort of niche use case that if you want/need to do that, you know how to disable it, or it isn’t your biggest problem.
 
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