Epic Games Asks Apple to Restore Fortnite in South Korea Following Ban on In-App Purchase Requirement [Update]

[dwaite]

They will. It's kind of like the incestuous relationship between Samsung and Apple. They are arch enemies but Samsung had made chips and screens for the very company they are competing against.

Apple isn't going to get any new sales by letting Fortnite back in. Their only real motivation to let them back in is as evidence that they enforce rule evenly and not as retribution.

 

[Aydo2000]

Nah, if you have to, I meant fixed costs and usage costs. No revenue sharing of any kind.

You realize Epic won’t have any control over how Apple decides to charge them, right? If Apple decides to make it a variable cost, it sure can and will. Period.

 

[ian87w]

Your original argument seemed to be talking about Fortnite’s security risks which is what I responded to. But having alternate payment method creates a different set of issues on its own which also includes security risks indirectly. First of all, let’s not forget Netflix and Spotify stopped using Apple’s IAP after making sure they have an established user base. Both companies were just fine for many years having access to millions of paying customer base through App Store and pay 30% for it. (The fee is 15% after the first year for reoccurring payments, btw). Did either Netflix or Spotify had any issues when they needed Apple’s platforms? The answer is no.

The major issue with having alternate payment system is customer experience. With IAP, any payments, refunds or conflict resolution is directly handled by Apple. Apple also handles any security or privacy measures as part of the arrangement. With alternate payment methods, Apple can’t control the user experience nor can it protect the customer for potential fraud or privacy issues. It’s all under the discretion of the third party payment service. Apple can’t handle any refunds, disputes or other issues.
At the end of the day, Epic will have the resources to take over these responsibilities but small developers won’t have the same resources to handle these things. That only translates to bad user experience for the consumer. The consumer won’t make that distinction when they become unsatisfied. From financial point of view, for most small developers, paying Apple 30% will be much cheaper than paying for full time staff that handle customer service or outsourcing the job to another service. Game related purchases are mostly impulse purchases. Most people would probably give up making that purchase if it requires extra steps. For Epic, this is a self serving argument while trying to look like hero’s for small developers. They can afford all the things small developers simply can’t.

From Apple’s perspective, this is just bad for user experience while having much less incentive to innovate in App Store space. Why pay billions for a platform if you can’t get ROI on it? When on earth was that ever an acceptance expectation to ask for something for the cost of nothing?

Imo the poorer customer experience would be at the loss of the developer.
Like you said, game purchases are mostly impulse purchases. If customers find it difficult, they would simply skip buying it. Thus games with the least friction (eg. games using Apple's own IAPs) would benefit. I doubt this would affect Apple much as most game developers don't have the time nor resources to set up their own payment system. They'd rather just use Apple's.

Meanwhile, big companies with pro apps like Microsoft and Adobe already have their customers on their own payment system/subscription anyway. I doubt there are many people buying Adobe or Microsoft 365 subscriptions via IAPs.

Epic's tirade is more about the goal of having an alternative app store. Their complaints about payment systems was just a small part of their larger intention.

 

[sunny5]

Except the U.S. is not a party to any international treaty that governs recognition of foreign court judgments.

Also, I think you should look into what monopoly really means. You appear to have complete misunderstanding of the term.

Admit it, you are justifying what Apple is doing.

 

[sjw7]

I can understand why Epic don't want to pay the Apple App Store fee as it cuts into their profits. However 70% of something is much better than 100% of nothing especially as they have other ways of allowing people to purchase their stuff outside of the store.

 

[btrach144]

Apple is being real petty with their reply.

I’m going to assume South Korean lawmakers are not going to be happy with Apple jumping through loop holes.

 

[Havoc035]

Apple is being real petty with their reply.

I’m going to assume South Korean lawmakers are not going to be happy with Apple jumping through loop holes

What loopholes? The law isn’t even in effect yet. Also no company can be forced to do business with another company. If Apple considers Epic to be an unreliable partner there are no obligations.

 

[Joe_]

No they simply take advantage of their market position to demand a 30% cut on in-app purchases, knowing that smaller companies have to pay up. Obviously, it's not abuse because it's Apple but it is when other companies do it.

That is akin to not paying your mortgage. My land is taking a advantage of me, bohoo!

 

[Aydo2000]

Imo the poorer customer experience would be at the loss of the developer.
Like you said, game purchases are mostly impulse purchases. If customers find it difficult, they would simply skip buying it. Thus games with the least friction (eg. games using Apple's own IAPs) would benefit. I doubt this would affect Apple much as most game developers don't have the time nor resources to set up their own payment system. They'd rather just use Apple's.

Meanwhile, big companies with pro apps like Microsoft and Adobe already have their customers on their own payment system/subscription anyway. I doubt there are many people buying Adobe or Microsoft 365 subscriptions via IAPs.

Epic's tirade is more about the goal of having an alternative app store. Their complaints about payment systems was just a small part of their larger intention.

Exactly and I agree that this will actually benefit developers who stick with Apple’s payment systems. Smart developers will definitely use that on their advantage.

From the consumer point of view though, I suspect poor customer experience will be seen as Apple’s fault rather than developer’s fault. Most users won’t even understand why things are different and not as good with some apps. That’s the nature of consumer facing business Apple understands very well and that’s the reason they like to control every aspect of the experience. I guess we will have to see how this pans out. I know for sure Epic won’t get their app store like they wanted. I don’t know what Sweeney was smoking when he thought he can make that happen.

 

[sunny5]

The bill is already passed and it will be effective within September. Nobody didnt even disagree and the president is being positive about the bill.

At this point, both Apple and Google will be in trouble once EU and USA decide to follow South Korea's bill and it's just a matter of time.

 

[Aydo2000]

Admit it, you are justifying what Apple is doing.

I wasn’t hiding that but you should admit you don’t know much about international laws or aware the fact that what one country decides in their court has no effect on what courts in other countries decide.

 

[alchemistmuffin]

Besides, the proposed regulation in S.Korea is simply allowing third party payment for apps.

which Apple, in all likelihood will NEVER comply and would rather exit the market altogether. Apple still have that retribution feel that Steve Jobs had in order to preserve his legacy.

Apple has made deal with LG to sell phones in the store but they are ready to walk away from that if they have to deal with government that gets in Apple’s way.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Hope they’re never allowed on the App Store again.

Ironically Epic could just open up a shell company and hire out their IP rights and just relaunch the app under a new company and developer ID. Nothing in apple’s guidelines is prohibiting this workaround 😂😂

 

[4jasontv]

Now what would crack me up is if Apple said "sure you can use your own in-app purchasing, but keep in mind you still owe us 30% of revenue"

Which would be the only legitimate compromise. Although I think it should be 40%, to cover the additional overhead associated with supporting alternate payment options.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

From Apple’s perspective, this is just bad for user experience while having much less incentive to innovate in App Store space. Why pay billions for a platform if you can’t get ROI on it? When on earth was that ever an acceptance expectation to ask for something for the cost of nothing?

Absolutely false. Apple livs and dies by the App Store. If apple would neglect the store it would lead to the death if iOS devices.

now that apple also have competition for iAP and the treats of legal actions they might actually improve the horrendous thing called the “App Store”. And perhaps innovative to make iAP preferred to other methods, such as lowering the fee to competitive levels.

 

[sdz]

Hope they’re never allowed on the App Store again.

Why?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I literally have a degree in Econometrics, and another degree in Electrical Engineering, are you kidding me?

Indeed you are. Monopoly is legally defined differently in every jurisdiction. USA legal definition is not the same as EU definition or to Korean legal definition.
Hell In the UK a firm is said to have monopoly power if it has more than 25% of the market share in a market.

 

[LFC2020]

Why?

Why not?

Epic knew exactly what they’re were doing and chose to break the rules, now they’re having a cry about it.

Ban the whole company from ever being allowed on the App Store again. 😁🥾🗑

 

[Aydo2000]

Apple, your monopoly is crumbling and its end can't come soon enough

No they simply take advantage of their market position to demand a 30% cut on in-app purchases, knowing that smaller companies have to pay up. Obviously, it's not abuse because it's Apple but it is when other companies do it.

You realize that every platform charges the same 30% fees, right? Before Apple came up with the App Store, brick and mortar stores charged between 60% to 70% fees for having the games and software on the shelf and that includes Epic themselves too. Ask Epic why they want to have the cake and eat it too when they themselves charged 60% at some point in time.

 

[LFC2020]

You realize that every platform charges the same 30% fees, right? Before Apple came up with the App Store, brick and mortar stores charged between 60% to 70% fees for having the games and software on the shelf and that includes Epic themselves too. Ask Epic why they want to have the cake and eat it too when they themselves charged 60%.

Spot on, pure filth of a company.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

You realize that every platform charges the same 30% fees, right? Before Apple came up with the App Store, brick and mortar stores charged between 60% to 70% fees for having the games and software on the shelf and that includes Epic themselves too. Ask Epic why they want to have the cake and eat it too when they themselves charged 60%.

And fortunately for us people.
But everyone else is doing it, making it okey for us to do it.

this have never worked as nether a legal or moral argument.
The fact Epic have a 12% fee on their store with healthy profits shows the fees on App Store could be lower, but is artificially high as iOS users don’t have a choice. This the effect of monopoly artificially upholding costs as no competition can offer lower fees as it’s against their agreement.
Or that apple have 15% fees for some but not others.
The fact apple changes under legal pressure and not competitive pressure is also against their case.

 

[Aydo2000]

Absolutely false. Apple livs and dies by the App Store. If apple would neglect the store it would lead to the death if iOS devices.

now that apple also have competition for iAP and the treats of legal actions they might actually improve the horrendous thing called the “App Store”. And perhaps innovative to make iAP preferred to other methods, such as lowering the fee to competitive levels.

What you are proposing is pretty much the current state of Google App Store which isn’t known for hosting quality apps or being too good with privacy and security measure especially with sideloaded apps. Epic itself was already in headlines few years back for infecting millions of people with malware from their sideloaded Fortnite in addition to having a malicious code in their payment systems. This is all historical evidence.

I agree that Apple lives and dies by the App Store but you seem to forget what made the App Store the huge success that it is now. Losing control over customer experience is pretty much cripples the core value proposition for the end user. Apple needs to have ROI for them to make sense business model wise. Apple will find the way to make up for the lost revenue. That’s not what I am worried. My worry is for the App Store and iOS to look and act like Google Play Store and Android. That’s not a good thing by any means.

 

[Aydo2000]

And fortunately for us people.
But everyone else is doing it, making it okey for us to do it.

this have never worked as nether a legal or moral argument.
The fact Epic have a 12% fee on their store with healthy profits shows the fees on App Store could be lower, but is artificially high as iOS users don’t have a choice. This the effect of monopoly artificially upholding costs as no competition can offer lower fees as it’s against their agreement.

Epic hosts only games and they were happy to charge 60% to host other software and game developers in their brick and mortar stores in the 90s.

I never said it’s ok just because everyone does it. Don’t forget that it is Apple - not Epic or anyone else - that reduced such fees from 60%-70% to 30% when the App Store launched. How low is low enough exactly? The cost of everything is so much higher in today’s world but despite that Apple never increased the rate. So again, how low is low enough? So far what I am seeing is a general consensus towards not paying anything but still have all the privileges.

I would like you to give us an example which company ever changed things spontaneously without any underlying goal. You single out Apple for only responding to legal pressure. There is a market standard for everything and fees are one of them. That’s how business field works.

 

[Shanghaichica]

I’m glad they told Epic where to go lol

 

[SurferPup]