Epic Games Denied Preliminary Injunction for Fortnite, But Apple Can't Block Unreal Engine

[Jgltno]

Interesting opionion - I guess using numerous other sources or "side loading" your software for Mac is perfectly safe then?

This always interests me when folks make these kind of claims, why, if the App store is the utopia you believe it to be [ and let's not forget, you have apparently been using it before it existed], why do you have so much knowledge of Android and other stores? What drove you to use Android if everything is so amazing, so "refined" and safe on the App store?

Computers are a different monster. I was referring to the App Store on our iPhones specifically as this is what it from the beginning when the App Store was conceptualizad. So I was off by a year? Ok then... about 12 years using the App Store “Utopia”.

Oh don’t get it twisted - Absolutely nothing drove me to use Android. Unfortunately my job provided me with a Samsung Galaxy for my business phone and I’m forced to use and carry both phones everyday. That phone can barely keep up with my fingers when I text or email. Let’s not talk about the lag after just 1 month of your device being brand new. Galaxy Store, Google Play Store, double apps for everything, submitting or saving payment information into multiple stores, 90% of apps rarely get updated, user interface a hot-mess between apps (even google’s own apps)

Yeah, I’ll stick with Apple’s approach.

 

[Maximara]

Apple wants Unreal Engine to be made for macOS anyways.

Apple probably blocked Unreal Engine account out of following their own rules. The fact that they've been ordered to keep Unreal Engine is a win for Apple as well. I'm sure Epic would have loved the PR of telling their developers "Well, Apple screwed us and ultimately screwed you".

As I keep pointing out the Unreal Engine is a total joke in terms of total marketshare:

"Talking about Unity, it has an average of 4.5 million subscribers and a market share of 48% whereas Unreal Engine stands about 13%." - "Unity vs Unreal Engine? No more Confusion for Game development" April 10, 2018 Linkedin

Unity vs. Unreal: What to Choose for Your Project? (Aug 9, 2019) shows, based on developer data, Unity has risen to 62%, Internal proprietary engines were at 47% while Unreal languishes at 12%.

 

[cmaier]

as a said on another thread, then the market isn’t working. By implication if everyone charges the same then, then the consumer is always paying the highest price. There is no commercial competition between platforms. Years ago, it was the same with the airlines, when AA, BA, Virgin and United would charge an identical fare (to the penny) for a transatlantic flight...only a threat of an investigation into fixing and collusion by the EU put a stop to it.

this is silly. In any market, economics predicts that everyone eventually charges the same for an undifferentiated product. Because as soon as someone charges 29 percent, everyone else has to charge 29 percent as well otherwise they lose all their business.

so by that logic one could actually argue that the fact that everyone is charging the same amount proves the market is working.

 

[ani4ani]

Computers are a different monster. I was referring to the App Store on our iPhones specifically as this is what it from the beginning when the App Store was conceptualizad. So I was off by a year? Ok then... about 12 years using the App Store “Utopia”.

Oh don’t get it twisted - Absolutely nothing drove me to use Android. Unfortunately my job provided me with a Samsung Galaxy for my business phone and I’m forced to use and carry both phones everyday. That phone can barely keep up with my fingers when I text or email. Let’s not talk about the lag after just 1 month of your device being brand new. Galaxy Store, Google Play Store, double apps for everything, submitting or saving payment information into multiple stores, 90% of apps rarely get updated, user interface a hot-mess between apps (even google’s own apps)

Yeah, I’ll stick with Apple’s approach.

ahh, the old chestnut that is always rolled out..."my company makes me use a galaxy phone," the old lag in a month routine, multiple payments etc. If any of that was a reality at one time, maybe you could have made those claims 10 years ago. So what "Galaxy" are you using that cannot keep up with your texting?

 

[mazz0]

Balance of equities. It doesn’t harm apple much to prevent them from doing it right now, and it would harm a lot of other people if they were allowed to do it. If apple wins the case, they can ban the other account then. In the mean time, apple isn’t actually really harmed by not being able to do so. Or at least that’s the court’s reasoning.

But why does it matter how much it harms people? They have the right to do it, it’s in the T&Cs.

I also don’t really see *how* it really harms third party developers using Epic’s engine. It’s not like the engine would suddenly stop working, it just wouldn’t get updates.

 

[ani4ani]

As I keep pointing out the Unreal Engine is a total joke in terms of total marketshare:

"Talking about Unity, it has an average of 4.5 million subscribers and a market share of 48% whereas Unreal Engine stands about 13%." - "Unity vs Unreal Engine? No more Confusion for Game development" April 10, 2018 Linkedin

Unity vs. Unreal: What to Choose for Your Project? (Aug 9, 2019) shows, based on developer data, Unity has risen to 62%, Internal proprietary engines were at 47% while Unreal languishes at 12%.

Why is it a joke? They have twice the market share... than say Macs? Homepods? Look at the actual games commercially available with each platform and you will see that Unreal is significantly larger than Unity. Also remember the Unreal Engine is used far beyond building games.

We get it, you're unhappy with Epic and what they are trying to do against Apple - it doesnt make their products rubbish or the people who design and use them any lesser?

 

[Carnegie]

But why does it matter how much it harms people? They have the right to do it, it’s in the T&Cs.

I also don’t really see *how* it really harms third party developers using Epic’s engine. It’s not like the engine would suddenly stop working, it just wouldn’t get updates.

Because it hasn’t been established yet that Apple has a right to do it. That would go to the likelihood of success on the merits considerations. If the judge had found that there were no serious questions when it comes to Apple’s right to enforce its App Store rules, that Apple doing so doesn’t violate antitrust law, then she wouldn’t have granted the preliminary injunction relating to the Epic affiliates. It wouldn’t matter whether the balance of equities tips in Epics favor.

As it is, whether Apple has a right to impose certain terms is an open question. So when deciding whether preliminary relief should be granted, other factors have to be considered.

 

[Carnegie]

You need to tell that to the court then as that is their statement. Ask them if you can be an advisor in May if the Judge needs some help.

As cmaier pointed out, the judge already seems to understand how Ninth Circuit preliminary injunction law works - i.e., how the Winter factors have been applied in the Ninth Circuit. She surely doesn’t need my legal advice; I’m confident she understands the legal issues better than I do.

 

[citysnaps]

The App Store monopoly will eventually come tumbling down.

And someday pigs will fly.

 

[mazz0]

Because it hasn’t been established yet that Apple has a right to do it. That would go to the likelihood of success on the merits considerations. If the judge had found that there were no serious questions when it comes to Apple’s right to enforce its App Store rules, that Apple doing so doesn’t violate antitrust law, then she wouldn’t have granted the preliminary injunction relating to the Epic affiliates. It wouldn’t matter whether the balance of equities tips in Epics favor.

As it is, whether Apple has a right to impose certain terms is an open question. So when deciding whether preliminary relief should be granted, other factors have to be considered.

Ah, fair enough. That uncertainty seems odd, but I’m no lawyer, so <shrugs>!

 

[Carnegie]

as a said on another thread, then the market isn’t working. By implication if everyone charges the same then, then the consumer is always paying the highest price. There is no commercial competition between platforms. Years ago, it was the same with the airlines, when AA, BA, Virgin and United would charge an identical fare (to the penny) for a transatlantic flight...only a threat of an investigation into fixing and collusion by the EU put a stop to it.

It seems evident to me that the market is working quite well. Consumers have access to more software, and more functionality, at lower costs than they ever did before. That is due in part to the app store model which Apple, Google, and others have adopted. At the same time, developers have more opportunities to make more money than they ever did before. And it's easier for them to attract new customers, and service existing customers, than it's ever been.

Competition in B2C markets, which is what matters most, is generally better because of the B2B model that's being used. This isn't like airlines all charging the same prices for comparable flights. The businesses offering products and services to consumers - as apps or through apps - are charging different prices. In many markets they are competing with each other. It's more (but still not really) like airports charging airlines the same rate for the services they provide those airlines - and that rate being consistent across airports not because of collusion but because the market has found that rate to be a competitive rate that works for most parties. If that model increases competition among airlines, and results in more airline services being available to consumers at better prices, then that's a good thing.

 

[Carnegie]

Ah, fair enough. That uncertainty seems odd, but I’m no lawyer, so <shrugs>!

Well, the uncertainty is there because the question is largely fact dependent. And there hasn't been a trial yet so the evidence used to make the factual cases mostly hasn't been presented (or to some extent discovered) yet.

 

[2010mini]

I think Apple created the standard when they first implemented the 30%. Google and later Amazon/Microsoft followed after.

if you have info that proves this, please share.

 

[I7guy]

The App Store monopoly will eventually come tumbling down.

Reminds me of the “apple is doomed, Timmy is going to sink Apple”, meme, that was circulated and continues to occasionally circulate.

 

[Maximara]

this is silly. In any market, economics predicts that everyone eventually charges the same for an undifferentiated product. Because as soon as someone charges 29 percent, everyone else has to charge 29 percent as well otherwise they lose all their business.

Except that is not the case as the fact that Humble charges 25% and Itch.io has "developer choice" ( Report: Steam's 30% Cut Is Actually the Industry Standard )

so by that logic one could actually argue that the fact that everyone is charging the same amount proves the market is working.

Same percentage not same amount and as Humble and Itch.io show there are outlets other then Epic that are less then 30% and yet the market isn't really changing.

Heck Epic is so braindead they still don't have a shopping cart even though thanks to the way credit cards work it is costing them money.

 

[The Matt George]

This is like watching my parents get a divorce. Shut up and just be nice the kids want to play!!

 

[Maximara]

Reminds me of the “apple is doomed, Timmy is going to sink Apple”, meme, that was circulated and continues to occasionally circulate.

The "Apple is doomed" was a thing long before Timmy came on board. It got the most traction in the 1990s and let's face it Apple was a mess back then.

 

[schlitzz]

World’s smallest violin for Epic 🎻

More like 10th-12th desk Viola.

 

[cmaier]

But why does it matter how much it harms people? They have the right to do it, it’s in the T&Cs.

I also don’t really see *how* it really harms third party developers using Epic’s engine. It’s not like the engine would suddenly stop working, it just wouldn’t get updates.

It’s simply the test when you are trying to get an injunction, which is a form of temporary relief. You “balance the equities.”

Stems from old English law, hundreds of years ago, when you could go to the King (or, more likely, the King’s chancellor) and ask for relief for something that was not covered by the law. (The “law” meaning written laws.).

In this case, Epic argues that if it wins the case, then the contract was never valid in the first place, and so apple shouldn’t be allowed to take actions like kicking it out of the program. Apple argues that the contract is valid.

Until that is determined, each side wants to the status of things to be a certain way, and thus the motions for injunctions. The court decides by balancing equitable concepts.
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My god you people are so brainwashed its sad. I hope you can get out of this mental lock you dont even understand yet. lol good luck.

Is the court also brainwashed?

thanks for the illuminating comment.

 

[dwaltwhit]

I don’t know whether epic is right or wrong in their battle against apple, but it certainly appears they shot themselves in both feet when they pulled fortnite off the app store

 

[cmaier]

Except that is not the case as the fact that Humble charges 25% and Itch.io has "developer choice" ( Report: Steam's 30% Cut Is Actually the Industry Standard )


Same percentage not same amount and as Humble and Itch.io show there are outlets other then Epic that are less then 30% and yet the market isn't really changing.

Heck Epic is so braindead they still don't have a shopping cart even though thanks to the way credit cards work it is costing them money.

Humble? Itch.io? what the hell are those?

there are always outliers. Entities charge less even in commodity markets for the SHORT TERM (in economics lingo) and then either put themselves out of business, or are forced to raise prices.

The example of two entities that do essentially zero business means nothing.

 

[j1huynh]

hahaha.. epic should rename their company from “epic” to “failure”

 

[Unregistered 4U]

There's a mass of the new generation kids that want Fortnite on the go.

There’s a greater mass that want “blue bubbles” in messages. FAR greater.

I do wonder if this will come back to bite Epic, whatever the the result. I suspect even if the court found in their favour, that consequential losses wouldn't be awarded.

It already has. Companies are actively researching options to move off of the Unreal Engine. They don’t want to be caught out if Epic’s bad behavior gets Unreal kicked.

 

[cmaier]

There’s a greater mass that want “blue bubbles” in messages. FAR greater.

It already has. Companies are actively researching options to move off of the Unreal Engine. They don’t want to be caught out if Epic’s bad behavior gets Unreal kicked.

The blue bubble was probably apple’s greatest move. It always feels almost like spam when you have to deal with a Green Bubble.

 

[VespiYT]

Yes keep this piece of toilet paper out of ios!