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How about Apple sell you an iPhone without any OS installed and you find a way to load whatever you want?

They allow you to install something other than iOS but you miss out on iOS.
That would meet your needs, surely?

You own the hardware. And can do whatever you like with it. :)
It probably could Indeed. Considering with access to the hardware we could install a modified version of iOS and it would be infinitely easier.
6 games? that's it?

that you can get elsewhere?
Do I need to give you a list of a hundred games? They are examples.
there are plenty of platform exclusive titles. Surely your next step is demand a game vendor make a version for every hardware device that could play them...
Why would I ever do that? I want them to have the option to choose. If they only want to sell on switch or iOS/Windows/Mac epic store it should be up to them. If they want to sell in 1 or 100 stores they can do that.
Then get on a platform that has the innovation you want. Don’t buy a civic and complain it’s not fast as Tesla plaid and that Honda should innovate more.
Can I not wish for more innovation? Tesla and Civic provides competition and brings innovation
In your opinion only.
If you’re protecting adults from adult content on the basis of what’s good for children seems to be childish.
The rest of the post is subjective.
Asking the question isn’t subjective. Do you think the games are morally questionable?
At least in the US TOS are enforceable. For instance you cannot sue Tesla for a lemon law. When you bought the car you agree to arbitration - even if you didn’t read the sentence specifically.
Hmm your partner dies from food poisoning in a Disney restaurant….
No he agreed to arbitration 10 years ago when he tested Disney+… so you can’t drag us to court.

So if your partner died eating at the Apple campus cafeteria, but you agreed to the Apple II ToS agreement 47 years ago and he agreed we can’t be sued….

And ToS is enforceable in EU, if you agree to it before purchasing the goods. With some limitations obviously.

I’m not so sure why you should be forced to infinite arbitration when something completely unrelated to the product happens in a separat service
 
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[...]

Can I not wish for more innovation?
Sure wish for as much innovation as you want. Doesn't mean it will be delivered to your standards.
Tesla and Civic provides competition and brings innovation
Tesla does anyway. Civic is one among the range of compact sedans.
If you’re protecting adults from adult content on the basis of what’s good for children seems to be childish.
The platform owner is allowed to do that. There are rules galore on private property. You may not agree to them, but then don't go on the private property.
Asking the question isn’t subjective. Do you think the games are morally questionable?
For some people it could be. But the posted list was subjective. We all know there aren't just 10 games.
Hmm your partner dies from food poisoning in a Disney restaurant….
No he agreed to arbitration 10 years ago when he tested Disney+… so you can’t drag us to court.
That's not even in the same realm as a TOS relating to an online service.
So if your partner died eating at the Apple campus cafeteria, but you agreed to the Apple II ToS agreement 47 years ago and he agreed we can’t be sued….
Same comment as above...honestly was kind of a childish take on it. Now aware of any legalese that protects a company from malfeasance.
And ToS is enforceable in EU, if you agree to it before purchasing the goods. With some limitations obviously.
The TOS should be enforceable before the goods are used even after purchase. But there should be a mandatory return period allowed.
I’m not so sure why you should be forced to infinite arbitration when something completely unrelated to the product happens in a separat service
Because it is what it is.
 
Well would you agree with Disney’s TOS?
His wife is kind of childish wouldn’t you say, he should have signed that ToS

The reason it says Piccolo must be compelled to arbitrate? A clause in the terms and conditions he signed off on when he created a Disney+ account for a monthlong trial in 2019.

Disney says man can't sue over wife's death because he agreed to Disney+ terms of service​

Disney can say whatever they want unfortunately but a common sense judge should see through it.
 
tbh I really don't get why some people are so hostile towards Apple being forced to open to third party app stores. Can you please list a couple of ways this would damage those who want to continue using exclusively the apple appstore?
 
Sure wish for as much innovation as you want. Doesn't mean it will be delivered to your standards.
I don’t have any standards, I just want store competition so it might happen.
Tesla does anyway. Civic is one among the range of compact sedans.
And so does all the other car companies who offers the best car for customers.
The platform owner is allowed to do that. There are rules galore on private property. You may not agree to them, but then don't go on the private property.
Yes, and I agree, but I still think the rules are childish and would benefit from competition. Just how we got game streaming and simulators finally in the store.
For some people it could be. But the posted list was subjective. We all know there aren't just 10 games.
Well some kind of examples must be provided
That's not even in the same realm as a TOS relating to an online service.

Same comment as above...honestly was kind of a childish take on it. Now aware of any legalese that protects a company from malfeasance.
Well perhaps you should read the think you responded to, as that’s what a happend.

A person died from food poisoning at a Disney park, the widow is suing Disney and

In a current lawsuit, on behalf of his dead wife after she suffered a fatal allergic reaction, allegedly from a meal she ate at a park restaurant in 2023. Disney has asked the court to move the dispute to arbitration, meaning the case would not go before a jury or otherwise continue in court.

To make the argument, Disney is pointing to a subscriber agreement the widower allegedly entered when signing up for Disney+ that included an arbitration clause.
The TOS should be enforceable before the goods are used even after purchase. But there should be a mandatory return period allowed.

I don’t think that’s fair when it comes to purchasing something. Just like buying a car, you should be allowed to include a ToS that states you are only allowed to drive it on fridays and not pets are allowed, or you should return the car.

A contract should be enforced before purchase is completed
 
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Since you do not play any of Epic's games, it's not an issue for you.

And why is it an issue for you at all? If you don't like seller that sells your desired, just buy other apps from sellers you do like? Where's the bloody issue?

👉 If you don't like a store, go shop somewhere else!
Just buy from a different store to get what you want.
But no, some like you insist they're entitled to buy everything from on single particular store.

I'm not entitled to having just one store, but I wish I were.

One store is simple. That's what I want. Also I liked censorship, but it should have been a censorship on quality much more than content.

Sometimes I don't like the seller but I like or need their products. Also I don't want the developer to able to communicate with me unless it's absolutely necessary to use their app or service.

With Apple's App Store you could trust on Apple to act as a shield between you and the seller. I

And the power was entirely Apple's or delegated to users. A good thing for me since Apple's interest much more often aligns with my own interest.
 
And if no one’s plays it or buys Epic’s games. Tim Sweeney I am sure will blame Apple. After all no one is going to stop that man monetizing kids.
I guess, it’s the other way around: I‘m going to sell my Samsung Tab and buy an iPad.
Fortnite was the main argument for Android for me after years of Apple-only smartphones and tablets.
 
No, I want to see some innovation in store functionality, as the iOS AppStore have practically stagnated the last 10 years.

And Games are stories and apples moral rules are Childish, considering the bellow games that was prevented.

You think these games are morally questionable?

1. The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth
• Platforms Published: PC, PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo Switch
Reason for iOS Rejection: Depictions of violence towards children and religious themes.

2. Papers, Please
• Platforms Published: PC, PlayStation, Nintendo Switch
Reason for iOS Rejection: Depiction of nudity.

3. South Park: Phone Destroyer
• Platforms Published: PC (for other South Park games), Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo Switch
Reason for iOS Delays/Temporary Rejection: Offensive content and crude humor.

4. Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars
• Platforms Published: Nintendo DS, PSP, PlayStation, Xbox, PC
Reason for Initial Rejection: Drug-related content.

5. Surgeon Simulator
• Platforms Published: PC, PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo Switch
Reason for iOS Rejection: Excessive violence and graphic content.

6. Valiant Hearts: The Great War
• Platforms Published: PC, PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo Switch
Reason for iOS Delays/Rejections: War-related violence.
Not sure what country you live in, but literally everyone of those games outside of GTA: Chinatown is available in the US app store. And no, what I consider questionable would be games and software relating to hate speech and politics violence.
 
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And those of us who feared fragmentation in which apps would not be available on the App Store was right.
We really should be able to sideload software without the need of App store. That said, I still believe that Apple is entitled to some amount of money for using its IP.
 
What Apple said during the Epic trial clearly didn't go down well with developers, but I find it hard to disagree with the essence of what was communicated. Developers do owe Apple. For creating the modern App Store model. For getting users to trust the purchase process (which is the reason their apps even sold in the first place) at a time when malware and viruses were rife on PCs.

When the iOS App Store was first available, 30% was considered a godsend when developers were lucky to keep 30% of app revenue (compared to the 70% then, which has never changed). Nobody at the time thought that Apple was doing developers a disservice. And now Apple is somehow the villain for continuing to play by the exact same set of rules since 2008?

Was Apple rent-seeking at a time when it had single-digit market share? What about 2010 when the iPad was first introduced? 2015? 2020? When did the closed ecosystem so beloved by iOS users and developers, as well as Apple's 30% cut, become a supposed threat to both sides?

In a world where are literally dozens of different android handsets available, what is the logic of trying to make the only different smartphone (ie: iPhone) be more like the dozens of other android handsets which can probably give you all the freedom you want (and then some?).

This is your idea of meaningful competition?!?
Just because one set of rules worked at the beginning doesn’t mean it should continue that way. Samsung don’t still sell fruit and veg.

Apple actually do give developers a fair deal. But smartphones of all OSes have gone from expensive toys to an everyday necessity. At the same time the market is not measured in billions of users.

That is to say there is no reason why there should not be rival stores on the platform. It would be great if i could have Steam or GOG on my Xbox so that I’m not limited to the prices of just one point of sale. In an all digital marketplace this is of vital importance.
 
I am glad EU broke Apple Store and allowed emulation, but in reality I do not see how it was monopolistic. If you do not like it you can buy Android phone or GrapheneOS phone or create your own phone. The gaming console market AFAIK works this way, console makers charge game developers to release games on their platform and probably charge a cut on their online store which is exclusive.



This is known as late stage capitalism. Few rule the market and no one wants to enter the market to compete against them. Funny, this is how the game of Monopoly works. Everyone starts equally but if you play long enough in the end 1 guy owns all.

as for skeuomorphism, I do not get the criticism. It worked great IMO. Friendly and easy.
The thing with games consoles is that there is 90% parity between platforms. Whilst I would like Steam and GOG on my Xbox, I do have the choice of buying a Steamdeck or a PlayStation which has most of the same software.
 
Just because one set of rules worked at the beginning doesn’t mean it should continue that way. Samsung don’t still sell fruit and veg.

Apple actually do give developers a fair deal. But smartphones of all OSes have gone from expensive toys to an everyday necessity. At the same time the market is not measured in billions of users.

That is to say there is no reason why there should not be rival stores on the platform. It would be great if i could have Steam or GOG on my Xbox so that I’m not limited to the prices of just one point of sale. In an all digital marketplace this is of vital importance.
The opinion is as fair as others with an opposing viewpoint.
 
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I don’t have any standards, I just want store competition so it might happen.
My view is that from everything I"ve read the ios app store is legal and I'm against this legistlation (DMA)
And so does all the other car companies who offers the best car for customers.
That doesn't mean the government should step in and force Honda to make the civic the performance equivalent of another higher priced car for the money of the civic.
Yes, and I agree, but I still think the rules are childish and would benefit from competition. Just how we got game streaming and simulators finally in the store.
But again, it's forcing a business owner to do things they don't want. It's a non-political thread so I'll leave it at that.
Well some kind of examples must be provided

Well perhaps you should read the think you responded to, as that’s what a happend.

A person died from food poisoning at a Disney park, the widow is suing Disney and

In a current lawsuit, on behalf of his dead wife after she suffered a fatal allergic reaction, allegedly from a meal she ate at a park restaurant in 2023. Disney has asked the court to move the dispute to arbitration, meaning the case would not go before a jury or otherwise continue in court.

To make the argument, Disney is pointing to a subscriber agreement the widower allegedly entered when signing up for Disney+ that included an arbitration clause.


I don’t think that’s fair when it comes to purchasing something. Just like buying a car, you should be allowed to include a ToS that states you are only allowed to drive it on fridays and not pets are allowed, or you should return the car.

A contract should be enforced before purchase is completed
As I said above I don't think you sign away (or TOS away) malfeasance or negligence. In this unfortunate case, the article made it sound as if the wife had an allergy to something in the food. But if Disney were to be found negligent (such as peanuts in a product where there is a sign saying peanut free foods) I would hope the lawsuit could proceed. But we will have to watch this and check back-in (if we are both still around) to see how this develops.
 
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Apple should be greedy within the law
Celebrated as it may be, particularly by some Americans, this "doing everything as long as it's not explicitly outlawed" style of greedy a$$hole capitalism isn't appreciated everywhere else in the world.

Companies should provide fair value to their shareholders, their consumers, other businesses and society. And there's a wide spectrum along how that's interpreted slightly differently among different countries, societies and cultures in the world. Which will eventually create their own rules and laws.
Apple should be greedy within the law. And as a consumer if you don’t like it, there are literally hundreds of cell phone manufacturers who will take your $$$
Doesn't matter - as long as there's only two relevant operating systems and stores in the market.
Sometimes I don't like the seller but I like or need their products.
...and that, for me, is Apple.

I like the idea and how their App Store is run - though never liked their monopoly (on iOS). And never liked their monopoly on macOS hardware, particularly since it's become non-upgradeable - and their MacBooks still offer the same storage capacity as their second-least expensive tier in 2012.

When the iOS App Store was first available, 30% was considered a godsend when developers were lucky to keep 30% of app revenue (compared to the 70% then, which has never changed). Nobody at the time thought that Apple was doing developers a disservice. And now Apple is somehow the villain for continuing to play by the exact same set of rules since 2008?
👉 Yes. Because we're not living in 2008 anymore.

Because cause economies of scale mean prices and transaction costs are going down in competitive markets - to the benefit of consumers and other businesses alike.

We don't use have 2008's technology anymore, we don't have 2008's internet speeds anymore - and we don't pay 2008's rates for internet access or calling anymore.
 
Just like buying a car, you should be allowed to include a ToS that states you are only allowed to drive it on fridays and not pets are allowed, or you should return the car.
And would you buy a car that had this TOS? Assuming no, which I think is safe bet for every car buyer, the market would work perfectly to take care of that.

These threads simply ignore that there is such a thing as market forces. Apple competes in an incredibly competitive market in the EU, and only has about 25% market share.

The sky is falling narrative that is being sold to grant the EU unprecedented power to shape a company is much, much, much ado about nothing.

Stop ignoring the market.
 
What Apple said during the Epic trial clearly didn't go down well with developers, but I find it hard to disagree with the essence of what was communicated. Developers do owe Apple. For creating the modern App Store model. For getting users to trust the purchase process (which is the reason their apps even sold in the first place) at a time when malware and viruses were rife on PCs.

When the iOS App Store was first available, 30% was considered a godsend when developers were lucky to keep 30% of app revenue (compared to the 70% then, which has never changed). Nobody at the time thought that Apple was doing developers a disservice. And now Apple is somehow the villain for continuing to play by the exact same set of rules since 2008?

Was Apple rent-seeking at a time when it had single-digit market share? What about 2010 when the iPad was first introduced? 2015? 2020? When did the closed ecosystem so beloved by iOS users and developers, as well as Apple's 30% cut, become a supposed threat to both sides?

In a world where are literally dozens of different android handsets available, what is the logic of trying to make the only different smartphone (ie: iPhone) be more like the dozens of other android handsets which can probably give you all the freedom you want (and then some?).

This is your idea of meaningful competition?!?
You give too much credit to Apple for "modern App Store model". There is nothing special about it. App stores predate Apple App Store. The reason they were not as popular had nothing to do with the "model". It was because the overall technology was not there yet. The quality of apps on slow processors and low resolution monochromatic screens over GPRS was not that enticing. It took development of semiconductor tech, high resolution color capacitive screens and wireless tech for smartphones to take off. Apple had nothing to do with any of it.
 
Celebrated as it may be, particularly by some Americans, this "doing everything as long as it's not explicitly outlawed" style of greedy a$$hole capitalism isn't appreciated everywhere else in the world.
You know my answer. Don’t buy their products for whatever reason the product doesn’t work for you.
Companies should provide fair value to their shareholders, their consumers, other businesses and society.
And apple has, no ifs ands or buts. Just because you don’t like their business model doesn’t mean apple hasn’t provided value.
And there's a wide spectrum along how that's interpreted slightly differently among different countries, societies and cultures in the world. Which will eventually create their own rules and laws.
And will ultimately against them.
Doesn't matter - as long as there's only two relevant operating systems and stores in the market.
It’s only relevant in your mind. There is no barrier to entering the cell iPhone market other than cash, brains and fortitude. Similar to many lines of business. Popularity is not a crime. Yet.
...and that, for me, is Apple.

I like the idea and how their App Store is run - though never liked their monopoly (on iOS).
There is no monopoly.
And never liked their monopoly on macOS hardware, particularly since it's become non-upgradeable - and their MacBooks still offer the same storage capacity as their second-least expensive tier in 2012.


👉 Yes. Because we're not living in 2008 anymore.

Because cause economies of scale mean prices and transaction costs are going down in competitive markets - to the benefit of consumers and other businesses alike.

We don't use have 2008's technology anymore, we don't have 2008's internet speeds anymore - and we don't pay 2008's rates for internet access or calling anymore.
Just an opinion line many others in this board.
 
You give too much credit to Apple for "modern App Store model". There is nothing special about it. App stores predate Apple App Store. The reason they were not as popular had nothing to do with the "model". It was because the overall technology was not there yet.
It was because apple threw its weight behind its App Store that made it popular.
The quality of apps on slow processors and low resolution monochromatic screens over GPRS was not that enticing. It took development of semiconductor tech, high resolution color capacitive screens and wireless tech for smartphones to take off. Apple had nothing to do with any of it.
It’s interesting to see how every factor except the obvious one was cited.
 
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