Epic Games Throwing a 'FreeFortnite Cup' Bash Before iOS Users Lose Access

[andresr]

What about all the free apps in the store? Why should Epic have to pay for Facebook and Netflix to be free?

Because 1) Fortnite is a free to play game too, and 2) it creates a vibrant community.

One of the biggest problems the Windows Phones had was the lack of commonly used free apps (FB, Pinterest, etc.). It creates a catch-22 problem. You need apps to sell the platform, but apps have to be developed for the platform. If the platform lacks what most users expect, the platform will underperform, and will go the way of the Windows Phone.

 

[hot-gril]

I’m an Apple fanboy myself, but damn, at least I can point out where they’re wrong. Many people here need to learn how to do that, honestly.

I don't care about Apple and in fact refuse to buy new products from them, but they're right. So is Epic, and I don't play their stuff. Both companies are exercising their freedoms in a fair way.

 

[daniesy]

I'm with Epic here. Apple's greed has to end. They're asking 30% + 100$/year for what? Basically nothing. xCode is a buggy junk and the App Store, certainly doesn't cost this much.

 

[supermacman1938]

How about they just allow other stores? It’s literally that simple. Competition will bring down the crazy 30% fee of the App Store eventually.

Here, this is what you would sound like if Walmart had a monopoly on the United States market and the government prohibited any other store.

“The United States Government puts so much work into Walmart. If you don’t want to deal with the (hypothetically) terrible rules that Walmart has to allow you into their store, then don’t sell in the United States! There are so many other countries where you could sell your products. Quit whining.”

Edit: Also, yes, actually. There is plenty stopping Epic. For one, app support. ****ing MICROSOFT tried to make an OS, and it didn't work, mostly because app support was just not there.

Where MS failed Apple succeeded. Apple had the same constraints as MS did when making their App Store. There is absolutely nothing stopping Epic from making their own Phone and App Store, with their own rules. They have capital and could hire engineers to develop the hardware and software. The truth is no one would buy their phone and their App Store would fail. That’s the only reason they can’t do it.

Apple is good at what they do, which is why they are succeeding. If Apple failed at the App Store and no one really used it, would anyone care how much they charged developers? Nope.

Allowing another App Store would be a terrible idea. The App Store Apple has created is a safe and simple place for customers to buy apps. If I’m downloading an app I know it’s probably not going to harm my phone and steal all my data. And if there is an issue with an app it will get fix very quickly. That is why I buy an iPhone. Security. It’s not perfect but it’s better then the rest. Also if there were more than one App Store it would ad extra confusion to their eco system. Not for everyone but for some.

Also, there is nothing stopping Epic from just selling on the google play store, PS4, XBOX, steam, Mac and PC. They just want a cheaper/free ride on a huge market that Apple has created over many years.

Epic is not doing this because they want to make it “better” for everyone. they don’t give a **** about anyone else. They are doing this to make more money for doing nothing extra. Which makes sense because they are also a company who wants to make money.

 

[supermacman1938]

This isn’t just about the App Store.

Apple has built a community of users that stick with the system because of purported privacy and security benefits. These range from the OS, to cloud services, to the App Store and it’s vetting of apps, to hardware and it’s associated R&D expenses, to operational things like how they handle PII.

Developers who want to distribute apps on the App Store get access to that entire environment that Apple has deliberately built and it’s built in customer base they’ve cultivated for decades. If billion dollar gaming developers don’t like the terms, they are free to distribute on the Play store or as a desktop application.

I haven’t seen any cogent arguments why 30% is too large of a cut. The costs of doing business are often quite high.

well said

 

[gavroche]

because apple fans. lmao.

Despite every other platform charging the same. So I goes you mean to say “because all fans of every platform.” You guys could at least try to hide your hate for Apple, and come up with an argument that makes sense.

 

[supermacman1938]

So now, Apple, which makes absolutely insane net profit margins on their hardware, net meaning it already had cost like R&D and all other operating cost deducted, has to AGAIN pay for that through the store according to you? Is there no end to the illogical BS fanboys spout off to justify the practices of Apple?? Look, the problem is not that they charge 30%. They could charge 70% as far as I am concerned in their own store. The problem is there is no choice. Regardless if you are a consumer or developer, you are forced to use the Apple App Store. Once I pay for my phone, it is mine and mine alone and I am free to do with it as I wish. Except install something on it. Or purchase something through the web for it, and use it on the phone. That is the problem. I don't give a flying F about Apple making all sorts of claims about stability or security, it's not their problem. It's my phone, thus it is my decision. And by not allowing me to do as I wish with my property, they are violating my God given right to do so. And Apple should get f*ed over so hard by the legal system they don't ever attempt something like that ever again.

then don’t buy Apple. Simple as that. It’s a free world. You can chose to buy something else. Why would you support them if you don’t like what they offer. Why would you even care. Just get something else.

 

[andresr]

What makes the number 30% absurd out of curiosity? What is a non-absurd amount to charge, and who decides that? Perhaps you should take a look at the typical product markup that occurs in pretty much every industry. Just to give one example... the grocery industry. What percentage would you think they mark up products that are sold in grocery stores?
And nobody forget... charging 30% does not mean they make 30% profit. They have to maintain the platform. They constantly develop and advance the OS, which is free to users. They have all the costs of maintaining the servers, etc. None of that is free. If 30% is so absurd, why did all of the competitors arrive at similar amounts, despite a desire to compete and steal market share...?

It's also damn if you do, damn if you don't.

Let's imagine Apple reduces the cut to 10% to break even. Google could take the hit, but now the other stores can't compete. That has the potential to phase out smaller stores, while the big ones could hobble along..

 

[tgwaste]

Finally this stupid game will die.

 

[Alan Wynn]

I’ve been in the entertainment industry for 25 years and if any of you like The Mandalorian .. you can thank Epic (Google it).

As someone who has worked in Film/TV production (with a heavy emphasis on technology and Visual Effects) for almost 40 years, it seems odd to thank the technology provider for the show. Sure they used virtual production (and that may have cut costs), but it was the artists who are responsible for the product. In the case of The Mandalorian I would no more thank Epic for the the show than I would thank Blackmagic Design for the Hyperdeck cards they used in production.

More over, the fact that Epic has decide to put every developer who uses their engine at risk for their selfish profit motives would make me really cautious about using them moving forward. They could have sued Apple without breaching their contract and risking getting kicked out of the Developer Program, but that would not have generated the headlines they wanted.

Fortnite has enabled me to stay in touch with my kids while they’re at the ex wife’s house. I play with my daughter all the time and she kicks ass. Saved me a number of times.

Glad you like the game. Not sure why that matters in this discussion.

[quoite]30% is highway robbery. I wouldn’t give the mafia 30%. No where in any other industry are the commissions that high.[/quote]

Actually, retail markup is much higher in many industries. You also mislabel what this is. It is not a commission, it is more accurately retail margin.

yes yes yes “you knew what you signed up for” ... blah blah .... I get that and i respect it .. I really do.

Except that you clearly do not. Even if Epic is justified in suing, they are not justified in breaching their contract. If you were a producer on The Mandalorian and Epic’s actions somehow put your use of their technology at risk how happy would you be now? I get that they make more money from Fortnite than they do from game engine sales, and that they really want to be able to make even more by leveraging their franchise into a retail store, none of that justifies their actions.

They could have sued while remaining in compliance and had no impact on their case from a legal standpoint. They chose this route to add political pressure, not for legitimate legal reasons.

Fortnite was HUGE before Apple was ever invloved so you can’t make the claim that Apple deserves really much at all

Epic does not have to give Apple anything. Since it was huge, they should not need the iOS market to make money, and not having it on the platform should just mean people who love it buy other devices on which to play it. Apple does not ”deserve” anything. They built a platform and set terms for using it. As I have pointed out before, Epic tried to create their own store on Android, and discovered that people did want the hassle of dealing with it. After losing all that potential revenue, they decided that Google‘s 30% was worth it, right up until they felt they were ready to sue them. If they were actually losing money on the platform, you can be sure they would not have been on it.

... in this scenario (and as i said I’m a big fan of Apple) ... Apple should be happy they get ANY CUT AT ALL from Epic.

As an end user, not an investor in either company, can you tell me why you care about the profit split among these companies? While Epic is currently charging developers less on their store, the prices of the games are the same there as they are on Steam and at retail. In other words, this has no impact on you as a consumer.

However, forcing Apple to allow other stores is almost certainly going to guarantee a platform with more issues. Read App Stores, Trust and Anti-Trust or as Loop Insight calls it: Apple is the Navy, not the pirates. If you do not like Apple’s policies, there is a perfectly good ecosystem that does not have them (Android). Given it is the dominant platform, you should have no trouble finding what you want there.

My only request is that you and those who agree with you, stop trying to force the world to adopt the one business model you like and feel is just. There is a platform that supports your views. Use it - do not ruin my platform of choice.

 

[gavroche]

It's also damn if you do, damn if you don't.

Let's imagine Apple reduces the cut to 10% to break even. Google could take the hit, but now the other stores can't compete. That has the potential to phase out smaller stores, while the big ones could hobble along..

… I could not agree more. For example, I’m a big fan of digital cameras. In particular, I like Fujifilm. And I find it kind of scary that all of the camera manufacturers are losing money. They all could potentially go out of business. It sounds great to the consumer to always have really really low prices, but what good is that if the businesses that we want to make good products can’t be profitable and survive.

 

[mrcloaked]

I feel unsafe.

 

[bayelrey80]

Revolutions only start when someone decided to cross the line.

I don't know about playstation but MS doesn't take 30% of in app subscriptions or purchases and they allow you to sign up within the app and also allow the developer to say, "go to this link to buy a subscription." When it comes to games though it's a different story.

MS does take 30% on the Xbox Store.

 

[D4vidrim]

What about all the free apps in the store? Why should Epic have to pay for Facebook and Netflix to be free?

Two sorts of license agreements one pay 30% on everything or license the app hosting for developers at a cost forcing them to host paid app and not cut into IAP.

Epic can already charge something for Fortnite and not pay anything else if they don’t sell digital products.
So they are already on the scenario you are talking about.

 

[bayelrey80]

All of this will add up in court proving it's profit, not equality Epic want.

Though I think Epic know this and are ok to lose the battle vs Apple but win the war via regulation. Having enough different large companies whinging about it to force the regulators hand.

Except it won’t get their app onto iOS or PlayStore anytime soon. If Apple pulls their developer account (potentially Google doing the same) and game developers decide to go after them, then Epic will have serious problems

 

[paradox00]

Question for anyone thinking Epic is doing the right thing here....

How come Epic's discounted rate is 80% of the iOS price, rather than 70%?

Via iOS, it's $9.99. but direct it's $7.99. If they aren't paying Apple the 'unfair against the consumer' 30% cut, why are Epic charging those same consumers more?

In my book, $9.99 less the 30% 'apple tax' is $6.99. Epic is paying the role of consumer champion, whilst actually taking more money for themselves. Sneaky.

Three points:

1. Epic handling payment processing comes with some cost to them. It's not free, it's part of what Apple charges 30% for.
2. Not one is arguing that Epic is not a profit grabbing company.
3. Even if Epic profits more, cutting the Apple middleman saves consumers money.

I find it more unclear why someone would side with Apple in this case. Their stance is creating consumer harm at this point; both in dollar value and availability of games on the App Store. I'd love to try xcloud on the iPhone, but Apple's ridiculous stance on games has squashed that. I don't play Fortnite, but Epic winning would lead to some necessary changes that would better the platform.

 

[paradox00]

Except it won’t get their app onto iOS or PlayStore anytime soon. If Apple pulls their developer account (potentially Google doing the same) and game developers decide to go after them, then Epic will have serious problems

Developers who lose access to the app store because Apple pulled Epic's developer account would likely join the lawsuit on Epic's side...

 

[gavroche]

I'm with Epic here. Apple's greed has to end. They're asking 30% + 100$/year for what? Basically nothing. xCode is a buggy junk and the App Store, certainly doesn't cost this much.

I sincerely wish Apple would fork iOS... and allow all developers complaining about the percentage to have a lower one, but only operate on the current version of iOS... and let the rest get the benefits of all that development and advancement of future iOS development. Should not matter right, since you seem to think iOS development is crap and free to develop.

 

[mrcloaked]

I'm not entirely certain.

 

[gaximus]

Do people NOT realize when they say this, they are ignoring Apple’s whole part? It’s the company that refuses to back down from their monopolistic 30% cut. They’re taking it from every single developer on the App Store. I don’t understand, why are you pointing fingers at Epic but can’t realize who is really at fault here?

Epic is doing the right thing here, 30% of nothing is nothing. It shows in Apple stock prices how bad this is hurting them. /s

 

[bayelrey80]

While Epic only takes 12% on their store. Who is the greedy company now?

If you comparing Epic’s store versus Google and Apple’s store, post the total expenses to run each store, number of apps vs number of games available, customer size, advertising, etc. Im
willing to bet the costs to run the App Store is significantly higher than the Epic store. Nevermind that Apple provides the software tools, advertising, payment system, built the OS and the devices, provides support, etc.

It’s also worth noting Epic pays developers to only have their game in the Epic store and not Steam. Does Epic allow game developers to open a store on the Epic store to bypass the 12%?

 

[mrcloaked]

PCs are open.

 

[Randompasserby]

Consoles are still just computers, like the iPhone and android phones are another form of computers. If people have an issue with the 30% cut that apple takes for being the platform, then they should be just as upset about the 30% cut Sony and Microsoft take on their platform. It ultimately benefits the consumer as they get to purchase a product that is subsidized by developers to an extent, and it benefits developers because they can market to a large audience with known specs to provide a game that people want to purchase. Maybe 30% is too high, that certainly could be debated, but that should apply across all platforms no matter where they are.

 

[derekamoss]

MS does take 30% on the Xbox Store.

For game subscriptions and in app purchases but not for apps.

 

[SteveW928]

This post right here shows the ignorance of those that don't already have experience with Fortnite. Players are already playing on multiple devices. My son, for example, goes back and forth from playing it on Xbox and iPad. All this does is mean he'll drop the iPad and solely play it on Xbox. Others play on PC, PlayStation, Android, and iOS.

It is also concerning how many people continue to feel Apple is 'right' in this situation. They're both fighting keep a portion of revenue. If you want to call Epic games greedy, the same applies to Apple. This whole battle is about money on both sides. Nothing else.

Oh, I've got lots of experience playing games on multiple platforms, and have a son who regularly does similar. Sure, the ones that have multiple devices available will just shift their game-play, I suppose. (BTW, my son wanted to play Fortnite, but after looking at it, we decided it wasn't any good for him.) I was thinking more of the ones that don't have an alternative. But even so, my son plays on his iPad like 90% of the time, so it would be a huge inconvenience.

If Fortnite were something better like Minecraft, it might be different. But, I'd just encourage him in this kind of situation to find something better to play. (Sorry, IMO it is a needlessly violent and stupid implementation of the genre... of course, don't these guys make GTA? It shows.) That said, I'm a fan of Unreal Engine, so it isn't like I just like Apple and don't like Epic.

I just think it was a poor move and plan. I'm glad to see developers as a whole put pressure on Apple to make changes. I'd rather see that than the government getting involved. But, just breaking the terms blatantly, and then crying victim when the hammer comes down is kind of recklessly stupid. So, it's absolutely Epic's fault, even if they have a principal point. (Maybe they learned from too many of the rioters and looters going on around them?) And, then to try and use the kids for leverage, is kind of low, IMO.