Epic vs. Apple Takes a Twist As 35 US States and Department of Justice Weigh in to Back 'Fortnite' Maker

[Maximara]

Not at all, steam google and Microsoft aren't the only sources. Apple is the ONLY source for everything.

So Apple makes MS Word?! Sure I am being silly but you went overboard with the claims. IF you know what you are doing you can even install Unix programs on a Mac and a Mac is made by Apple, is it not?

 

[Ethosik]

The point is that a consumer can buy Dove soap at other stores besides Target

You can get the "Dove soap" app on Android. There are people that only shop at Target, so the whole idea of SAME customers is not valid.

 

[turbineseaplane]

You can get the "Dove soap" app on Android. There are people that only shop at Target, so the whole idea of SAME customers is not valid.

Post above edited to be more clear

 

[turbineseaplane]

There are people that only shop at Target,

This is not relevant here because...

We don't have just Target and literally one other store in the world (say Walmart for the sake of example).

If the only stores that sold all of these essential products were Walmart and Target -- we'd have big issues (as we do here with Android & iOS)

Do you understand how that changes things?
That's the key issue here

 

[vipergts2207]

So explain to me how you are absolutely forced to develop for iOS in the first place?

If you want your app available to all smartphone consumers, do you have to develop for iOS?
Yes.

If you want your software available to all PC consumers, do you have to release your game on Steam?
No.

The issue isn't that you can't get it. The issue is that you don't want to get it because then you know your point has been refuted. To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his premise depends on his not understanding it.”

 

[Ethosik]

This is not relevant here because...

We don't have just Target and literally one other store in the world (say Walmart for the sake of example).

If the only stores that sold all of these essential products were Walmart and Target -- we'd have big issues (as we do here with Android & iOS)

Again, it is not Apple's fault for only two platforms. We should not advocate opening up iOS just because only Android exists - thus punishing Apple for lack of more competition in the smartphone space.

 

[Maximara]

No you're not because the app is still available to those consumers. They may choose not to buy your software because of the way you've chosen to distribute it, but it is still available to them, should they so choose. Not the case with iOS and iPhone.

Same is true of any console game and in fact many time the PC ports are purposely crippled to make the console version better.

 

[nastysailboat]

Then let me explain, it's simple, Apple is now a monopoly or monopoly-like, and now it needs to share with others. It's too big and has too much influence. This is to the detriment of the population.

It's like copyright laws (well - as intended anyway) - you get your exclusive rights for 20, 25 years, then it needs to be considered public. If something experiences amazing success during that time, the creator and original holder will benefit greatly, but at some point, it is in the public interest to release their works into the wilds.

This is not to take anything from anyone, but the system was designed like this to both benfit society at large, and to give enough benefits to individuals to create new things. I think it's very much fair like that.

Of course in reality copyright law, like most other laws, have been made into a farce, where Disney extends its mickey mouse copyright forever and ever through various tricks and bribes, same for other big brands.

At this point Apple must be considered a quasi monopoly in phones - just like Microsoft once was (and still is in PC operating systems).

It is therefore in the interest of society at large to let other people build on top of the platform. 3rd party app stores are more or less a no brainer.

For example, if I want to create software that runs on people's phones, but the one company that makes half of all phones does not let me, but they also legally and technically prohibit me then that's anti-competitive behavior.

Take the example of Cydia - it is a working app store; why should Apple be allowed to use all sorts of technical tricks to lock them out? I don't think Apple needs to go out of its way to support them - but going out of their way to remove all competition when you are a monopoly is not acceptable.

That's like Microsoft wiping out the competition with Word, by adding intentional incompatibilities with 3rd party apps into the code.

Oh cool you’re a lawyer!

 

[Ethosik]

If you want your software available to all PC consumers, do you have to release your game on Steam?
No.

Actually yes. I know far too many people to count that will NOT buy/download ANY PC game that is NOT on Steam. So no, I won't have access to ALL CONSUMERS. That is not really a good argument here. I am one of them. As much as I completely LOVE Final Fantasy 7 Remake, it is not on Steam and I will not install it. So yes I do get it because I know a lot of people that will not use anything other than Steam.

 

[nastysailboat]

According to people Apple should only sell inside it's company.

Should stop selling to China because they copy everything, should get out of India market because of work condition ... then there was EU for their warranty policies then there was Russia because they steal data... you understand that if they withdrew from any market they have some issue with it will be the end of Apple.

If Apple did what you suggest it would only lose money.

It's a corporation, not a 2-year-old picking up its ball and leaving going home.

Yeah if they wanna develop for apple

 

[boss.king]

I really wish people would stop being so condescending on this site. So explain to me how you are absolutely forced to develop for iOS in the first place? I asked the same thing earlier, marketshare percentage was brought up. So I countered it with Steam, which has a MASSIVE install base. So with the same logic applied, I need to release on Steam.

That's fair, I'll do my best to drop all condescension.

Firstly, that's not what I said. I said if you want your app to be available to the widest audience, you're forced to distribute via the App Store.

The issue I have with what you're saying is that you appear to be conflating awareness and access. You could put an app on the App Store and still get 0 downloads if no one knows about it, or choose not to put it on the App Store and even if it's the most popular game on Earth you'd be missing a massive chunk of the market.

Whereas a PC game dev could sell their next game solely from their site, never once touching a game store, and 100% of the PC gaming market would be able to access it.

EDIT: I'm trying to be as clear as possible so I've edited this a couple of times.

 

[vipergts2207]

Not necessarily. Many gamers won't install anything outside of steam (I am one of them and so frustrated I can't install Final Fantasy 7 Remake). So I don't have access to the SAME consumers.

No, you still have access to those users, those users have simply chosen not to buy what you're offering because they don't like how you've chosen to distribute it. They could still buy it if they wanted to though.

 

[clevins]

Then let me explain, it's simple, Apple is now a monopoly or monopoly-like, and now it needs to share with others. It's too big and has too much influence. This is to the detriment of the population.

No it isn't. Want the ability to side load apps? Use Android. Boom, done.

"But I think Apple should... "

Too bad. It's not new that iOS apps are only available via the App Store.

 

[Ethosik]

That's not what I said. I said if you want your app to be available to the widest audience, you're forced to distribute via the App Store.

You're conflating awareness and access. You could put an app on the App Store and still get 0 downloads. Whereas a dev could sell their next game solely from their site, never once touching a game store, and 100% of the PC gaming market would be able to access it.

And the same way I can access Android apps by purchasing Android products. I don't think you realize just how common it is for PC Gamers to stick to JUST Steam. Dozens of people I talked to, and all people they talk to say "If its not on Steam I won't buy it".

 

[Maximara]

It will be up to the developer, not me. As provided in an earlier post by me. I want Final Fantasy 7 Remake on PC. I am forced to use Epic Games Store.

As I said before Epic's whole argument falls apart when you realize Epic has this ultimate 'one store to rule them all' ala Sauron goal for everything console and PC alike.

 

[Ethosik]

No, you still have access to those users, those users have simply chosen not to buy what you're offering because they don't like how you've chosen to distribute it. They could still buy it if they wanted to though.

And you STILL have access to ME with an Android app by getting an Android tablet or Phone.

 

[clevins]

Nope, my viewpoint has been rock-solid and unwavering. Apple should not be able to restrict devs from accessing a large percentage of mobile app users.

They aren't restricting devs at all. Any dev is free to upload apps to the App Store.

Some of you need classes in basic logic.

 

[Maximara]

And the same way I can access Android apps by purchasing Android products. I don't think you realize just how common it is for PC Gamers to stick to JUST Steam. Dozens of people I talked to, and all people they talk to say "If its not on Steam I won't buy it".

And yet Epic has this mad dream they will replace Steam. You can stop laughing now.

 

[Ethosik]

And yet Epic has this mad dream they will replace Steam. You can stop laughing now.

Not sure what you mean about me laughing? The only way Epic can compete is by purchasing exclusivity rights - As in Borderlands 3 limited and Final Fantasy 7 Remake to name just a very small couple in a quite large list already.

 

[I7guy]

If you want your app available to all smartphone consumers, do you have to develop for iOS?
Yes.

So youre not forced to develop for iOS, you’ve chosen to do so.

If you want your software available to all PC consumers, do you have to release your game on Steam?
No.

The issue isn't that you can't get it. The issue is that you don't want to get it because then you know your point has been refuted. To paraphrase Upton Sinclair, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his premise depends on his not understanding it.”

Agree many can’t get past their biases.

 

[vipergts2207]

Same is true of any console game and in fact many time the PC ports are purposely crippled to make the console version better.

I don't understand what your point is here. Feel free to expand upon it.

 

[glockenSquish]

"Pay us 30% or you don't get access to 60% of U.S. consumers." "Only the kind of apps we say, are allowed to be installed on iPhone."

Those terms.

Bro! My big shot businessman dude, you strike a hard bargain! It was fine for everyone else but ok.

Are you making 1M on your app? Try 15%. I consider it a huge service to allow me to sell on the App Store. 15% to reach 60% of people is absolutely trivial.

If it was possible to side load an Epic Store onto iOS right now, I guarantee you’d be reaching a percentage much, much smaller than 60% of people, just to get that extra 3% profit. I don’t see your logic.

“Only the apps we say” . . . Do you mean a QA checklist to ensure that the app works and does at least what it advertises itself to do? You’re right! Even Epic turns down games on its platform based on criteria that’s not entirely disclosed to the public.

---

Look. To you and all the other Epic warriors, try to realize that you’re going to bat for a company who makes billions (that’s not the point, as Apple makes trillions), iOS being the source of hundreds of millions of those billions, and who is upset it wasn’t making hundreds of millions + 30%. Guess what, they make a lot more money on Fortnite from PlayStation and Xbox sales, the stores of which also charge a fixed 30% (no 15% or 12% for selling under $1M). Countless developers have been just fine with those terms.

Using Sony and MS, here’s a hypothetical of how backwards Epic’s thinking is. Sony has a rigorous checklist of QA to make sure everything it sells on PSN is going to work well on their hardware and not make them look bad and not piss off their customers and disappoint developers. Imagine if Microsoft now was allowed to make their own store on PlayStation, bypassing Sony’s QA, training their employees on Sony’s architecture I guess (!?), running their own “QA” to ensure it runs well on their competitor’s platform (!?). Are you hearing it now?

The takeaway: Epic is whiny and entitled… and good heavens for what reason?

 

[turbineseaplane]

So youre not forced to develop for iOS, you’ve chosen to do so.

You're forced to -- or you forego a huge portion of smartphone customers.

And...Smartphones have largely become life/work essential devices.

Businesses increasingly need to reach people everywhere (both platforms)

 

[vipergts2207]

Actually yes. I know far too many people to count that will NOT buy/download ANY PC game that is NOT on Steam. So no, I won't have access to ALL CONSUMERS. That is not really a good argument here. I am one of them. As much as I completely LOVE Final Fantasy 7 Remake, it is not on Steam and I will not install it. So yes I do get it because I know a lot of people that will not use anything other than Steam.

You as a consumer choosing not to buy something is in no way the same thing as that thing being unavailable to you. Those are two different things. You could choose to buy a beat up 1993 Honda Civic, but that you choose not to doesn't mean it's unavailable to you.

 

[boss.king]

And the same way I can access Android apps by purchasing Android products. I don't think you realize just how common it is for PC Gamers to stick to JUST Steam. Dozens of people I talked to, and all people they talk to say "If its not on Steam I won't buy it".

I've since edited that previous post for clarity.

The difference in what you're saying is that this choice made by the user, not one forced on the user by the OS vendor.