Raking it in ... while forking over more and more massive fines?
Not sure that's really a path Apple wants to take
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
EU Accuses Apple's App Store Steering Rules of Violating DMA and Opens Investigation into Developer Fees
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Raking it in ... while forking over more and more massive fines?
Not sure that's really a path Apple wants to take
After decades of tax dodging by American tech companies, maybe it's time to recoup some of that lost revenue 😉.
Apps in the App Store are already being charged the 70/30 split, which covers the cost of Apple's ongoing iOS development (i.e. Core Technology). Why would you charge the CTF for developers on top of the fees already being charged?
Again, if someone is unhappy with these purely voluntary arrangements, they are welcomed to go develop on other platforms, or create their own OS to develop on.
But I thought you guys want competition? But somehow Ireland is not allowed to compete on corporate taxes but has to charge the same high tax rates like other countries?
Talk about being hypocrites.
It was purchased by the U.S. company Priceline Group in 2005. Doesn’t change that booking dot com was established and founded in the Netherlands and is still operating from there independently, but as a subsidiary.
booking holdings isn’t being regulated, and nether are Priceline.com, Agoda, Kayak, Cheapflights, Rentalcars.com, Momondo, or OpenTable.
I have nothing but respect for Europe. From philosophy to economics to science to religion, they have given us so much on which to build a society on. We are truly indebted to the continent and its contributions. I say this upfront to make clear I have no interest in making this an EU vs US debate.
So, do you have an example we can work with where Apple is rent seeking?
That problems with this statement have been refuted endlessly, including by EU regulators themselves
Not really, your rights vary by country. Per the ECC:
Europe wanted to protect consumers because it is often difficult to provide proof of a defect, by resorting to an expert assessment, which can be costly. Therefore, for at least 6 months, any defect is presumed to have existed at the time of delivery and you do not need to prove the defect to invoke the guarantee, unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.
In France and in Portugal for example, this reversal of the burden of proof lasts for the entire duration of the guarantee. Thus, you do not have to prove to your seller a defect that would appear within two years of delivery of the product: it is presumed to have existed upon delivery and it is up to your seller to demonstrate that the product was in conformity. In Slovakia and Poland, for example, this period is one year.
Since January 1st 2022, you do not have to prove anything during the first 12 months after delivery. In France and Portugal, the period is still 2 years.
As with everything, it is not as simple as it seems, for example there are additional rules for hidden defects in France. I would suspect most manufacturers would simply fix it unless it is obvious the user caused the damage; but they don't automatically have to; and some smaller sellers however may take a different stance.
Of course, because they have an EU presence. It's also the reason some companies, while you may be able to access there web site, won't ship to the EU and others simply block EU access to their website. The later is a PITA when I want to ship something to a US address but am in the EU. Fortunately, VPNs come to the rescue.
True. Sometimes it's cheaper for me to buy in the EU and sometimes in the US. Getting back the VAT is a nice bonus.
However, manufacturers can say "Sorry. You need to go back to the selling country since we do not have a worldwide warranty on that item," even if they sell the same thing in the EU.
I suspect it is the same for the stuff I buy in the EU and take abroad, I'll have to take it back to Portugal to get the 2 year statutory guarantee honored; even though most of the companies have a US branch, even if I bought it direct from the manufacturer.
My point was the statutory guarantee is not free. It's all baked into selling prices.
Yes, which is why we buy them.
EU makes sure that companies can't exploit their customers. If Apple then cripples their software or withdraws from EU, that's up to Apple. And if customers still buy Apple if they don't withdraw, that's up to the customers. So yes, customers still have a choice even with the imposed EU rules.
But Apple does NOT have a choice in how they can treat their customers in EU.
I realize that businesses in the US are somehow revered and allowed to do almost anything, but that's not the case in EU.
As long as they're following the rules, customers can choose to buy their products or alternatives.
If they don't, they have to pay the price (or get out of EU, whichever comes first).
Apple in Ireland and others subsidiaries was made by Apple. They where never independent from the start.
In this case, it is not the users who are not liking Apple's practices but the government and they're acting to get make Apple competitive. You cannot deny the government the right.
Apple is not exploiting their customers. It’s a standard practice. All game consoles operate the same way. Maybe they shouldn’t signal out Apple and apply the same rules to everyone.
According to the DMA, they cannot self-preference their Appstore over third-party appstores. If an app that is in the 3rd-party has to pay CTF, then the same is applicable to apps on the store. We're talking about the free apps like Netflix, Facebook, etc here. On a 3rd-party Appstore, they will attract CTF while they do not in the Appstore.
Yes - the DMA is ACTIVELY MAKING PRODUCTS WORSE FOR USERS in the name of "competition" while ignoring there is already fierce completion in the markets it is regulating. Apple only has 27% of the smartphone market in Europe, their main competitor allows installing software from anywhere, but because Spotify wand Epic want to use Apple' IP for free, we get this regulation mandating Apple turn iOS into Android.
And not just Apple. Look at these comments from EU citizens about Google search getting worse thanks to the DMA:
And of course the EU has the right to do this. Doesn't mean 1) it's a good idea 2) Apple shouldn't push back on overly burdensome regulations 3) it's fair.
At this point, Apple deserves it for staying over there. You know they hate success. You know they think others should profit for free off your work. If you accept that, then that's on you.
Who wants a race to the bottom for corporate taxes? This race has no winner.
Besides, the tax dodging took place on both sides of the Atlantic.
A game console is not an essential piece of technology you need to basically.. live in our modern world.
A smart phone is. You need it to even be able to do banking in Sweden because everything here relies on BankID (a central way of identification for mainly banking).
So that is hardly the same.
A more apt comparison is Android, which by the way does allow alternative app stores, alternative payments, etc.
The problem with Android IMO is the lack of cohesion within the OS.
But that's not the problem of allowing alternatives but more because Android itself doesn't really provide good built-in solutions for those that don't want the "alternatives".
Apple already have a well established system solution for payments for instance, as well as App store.
Allowing alternatives is a good thing for those that wants it.
A smart phone is not either. A cell phone is. A dumb flip phone is all you NEED in the world. Need here equates to truly needing it like food and water.
Regardless on that point. So the EU doesn’t care about the “exploiting their customers” then.
They should, for any app they charge the CTF on 3rd party stores; and offset it by any revenue they get from the app on teh App Store. That way, it is a level playing ground and Apple is not disadvantaged by getting a commission plus CTF which would make the App Store more expensive.
Which has apparently resulted in more cyber criminals stealing from bank accounts.
Of course, and countries are happy to give tax breaks or other incentives to get companies to locate there.
As long as it is legal it is avoidance, not dodging; it's no different than an individual using every legal method to lower personal taxes.
And there’s fierce competition in the market of smartphone hardware, and completely outside the scope of the DMA.
Epic and Spotify etc aren’t asking to use any IP for free. And nothing in the regulation warrants it ether. If Apple wants to get payed for their IP, then they likely need to actually list the explicit IP that the CTF actually covers and the 99€/year fee isn’t already included or already payed by the customer who purchased the product and is installing other developers software.
Except there’s nothing in the DMA that forced Google or anyone to do anything worse. And this has been happening for a while.
You’re mistaking legal requirements and boneheaded product designs.
Well it wasn’t Apple that broke the law, but Ireland that broke the law according to EU for giving preferential tax treatment to specific companies.
Apple has no competition in the iOS Appstore. Everyone knows this but Apple trots this logic that the OS is not the monopoly. The EU is aware of these shenanigans and hence went the Gatekeeprs route so that they took the stupid argument away from Apple. They are not content with the competition between Apple and Google. They want competition within these ecosystems, that means competition with Apple within iOS. They will not leave without achieving it.
All I am seeing is iOS getting better by allowing emulators and alternate browsers. Once Apple wholeheartedly implements the required changes, things will get better. However, Apple is throwing tantrums like a spoiled child, which is the reason for this mess.
Everything will get better once the BigTech knows there is no way to stonewall these changes. Either they do better or their competition will. Currently, they have no competition and hence they are doing what they want.
If burdensome regulations are needed to get Apple to follow the rules, then so be it.
The only reason CTF does not hold is because the App Store prices it at 0 for the same use case. Just check for instance Apps such Facebook et al. So any other value applied to any other distribution / sales channel will be considered steering.
As it stands, the CTF and Web Publishing policies make it financially unviable certain classes of Apps to be deployed and sold outside of the App Store in comparison.
I am astonished Apple let this drag for so long instead of leading the inevitable. I think they would have profited more in the long run and be for way longer in control of developers cash registers when it comes to Apps, if they have been way more proactive and reasonable.
Last edited:
The DMA ABSOLUTELY made Google get worse. Doesn't mean Google wasn't already getting worse, but Google was absolutely forced to make product changes JUST for the EU that makes Google worse for the users. Just read the thread I linked to.