EU Accuses Apple's App Store Steering Rules of Violating DMA and Opens Investigation into Developer Fees

[MilaM]

And Google Burger does everything that the EU is trying to force Apple Burger to do. And, in the EU Google Burger has over 70% of the market share. But you and others keep screaming there is NO COMPETITION and developers are "forced" to develop for iOS.

Becaus you are forced. You can't develop an app for Linux and then tell your customers that they should ditch their iPhone or Android and use your app on a Linux PC at home.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Becaus you are forced. You can't develop an app for Linux and then tell your customers that they should ditch their iPhone or Android and use your app on a Linux PC at home.

Right? I don't understand their line of logic when it comes to this.

If I only make an Android App, my customers aren't switching platforms to use my app. I have to make an iOS app because market forces demand it. I'm not Adobe, Apple, Google, Microsoft. I am in no position to demand my customers use a certain platform.

The issue becomes that Apple is taking egregious advantage of this position. But I'm sure I'll be told in this thread that I should just go out of business if I don't like it.

The corporate bootlicking in here deeply concerns me sometimes. We can like the product and the company while disagreeing with them.

 

[Ethosik]

Multiple countries require a smartphone app for e-governance authentication. Tanax 's example of BankID is just one —without it, you do not have Swish and, hence, cash in Sweden. Smartphones were also used for COVID vaccines certificates.
Another example—which the government faced backlash—was UK's requirement for Android phones the 'Settle In' status that 3 million EU citizens living in Britain needed. The reason for this requirement was that the NFC reader was not accessible on iOS devices.
In Spain, you need a smartphone (with a camera) for various authentication services and meetings with gov. officials.

Smartphones are a must and increasingly so. Even the most stubborn anti-smartphone people I know have now bought one.

That doesn’t seem legal. How do not as wealthy people function? Not everyone can spend 1,000 on the iPhone. I know many in the US that do NOT have a smartphone.

 

[surferfb]

Right. And Apple charges for their tools in the form of the developer fee. If Apple wanted to do the right thing and make money, they would increase the price charged to developers upfront.

I don't think it's clear at all Apple charges for their tools in the form of the developer fee. I think, if anything, the low developer fee has been subsidized by Apple being able to charge a 15/30% commission on paid apps and in-app purchases. And if Apple suddenly hikes the price of developer accounts to $100 for free apps, $5k for less than $200k in revenue, $25k from $200k to $1million a year in sales, and then $100,000 for over $1 million all of you will be complaining about greedy Apple crushing small developers.

Remember, when the 30% cut was originally announced in 2008, developers CHEERED because developers were used to getting less than 30% of sales through the traditional channels, and now were getting 70%.

Except that no one wants to do this to the App Store. Developers want to be able open a Target, not be forced to sell at Walmart.

Did you read the article? Apple is being charged for not allowing developers to say the price is cheaper elsewhere. Which frankly, I personally would prefer Apple allow. But I have an ideological problem with forcing them to when they have <30% of the market.

 

[Xiao_Xi]

If I only make an Android App, my customers aren't switching platforms to use my app. I have to make an iOS app because market forces demand it. I'm not Adobe, Apple, Google, Microsoft. I am in no position to demand my customers use a certain platform.

The Netherlands forced Apple to change its conditions based on similar reasoning.

Various dating services exist on the Dutch market, which offer their services through apps. Since most consumers own an Android-based smartphone or an iPhone, most dating apps use the Google Play Store and Apple’s App Store. In order to maximize their reach, dating apps must therefore be available in both of these stores. After all, consumers also wish to reach other consumers with different types of smartphones.

On iPhones, dating apps can only be offered through the App Store, which makes dating-app providers highly dependent on Apple. Dating-app providers thus have little choice but to accept Apple’s conditions. ACM therefore establishes that Apple has a dominant position.

ACM obliges Apple to adjust unreasonable conditions for its App Store | ACM

The ACM has ordered Apple to adjust the unreasonable conditions in its App Store that apply to dating-app providers. The District Court of Rotterdam has partially suspended the order subject to periodic penalty payments that ACM had imposed on Apple.

www.acm.nl

 

[iToph]

Please don't arrogantly assume that you are so wise and speak for everyone… I for one I'm all in favour of the regulation to cut Apple dumb practices…

Well. Then you are the best example for a non thinking EU citizen.

Life of all would be better if the whole world wouldn’t be overregulated. I wish you lots of fun with sideloading, no Apple Intelligence, paperstraws and plastic lids tied to coke bottles & milkbottles.

Congrats.

 

[The_Gream]

Your comparison is hilariously fitting.

And I mostly agree with it.

Mostly?

I have most of my adult working life in retail. Brick and Mortar company A does not have to put in signs for Brick and Mortar Company 2.

To me it is unfair over all to dictate what a company does and does not do with their store. Yes, there is an issue with limited stores on the iOS, yet used their capital to invest in building how they wanted.

Any number of companies could have spun up their own ecosystem (and could have used Android as a base). Samsung has in someways. Google has attempted multiple times and failed. Companies in China do it.
The EU could have invested in a local tech and helped them do the same.

Apple’s biggest issue is cultural…

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Did you read the article? Apple is being charged for not allowing developers to say the price is cheaper elsewhere. Which frankly, I personally would prefer Apple allow. But I have an ideological problem with forcing them to when they have <30% of the market.

Companies do this all the time. Ever order something on Amazon and the product has a flyer inside with a promo code for the brand's website? Anker does this, for example.

The issue isn't so much their market share, it's the way they exploit that share.

 

[spazzcat]

Seems to be like 99% of users on here whenever this topic is brought up. Apple can do no wrong according to them

This is an Apple fan site, not sure what you are expecting.

 

[surferfb]

Right? I don't understand their line of logic when it comes to this.

If I only make an Android App, my customers aren't switching platforms to use my app. I have to make an iOS app because market forces demand it. I'm not Adobe, Apple, Google, Microsoft. I am in no position to demand my customers use a certain platform.

The issue becomes that Apple is taking egregious advantage of this position. But I'm sure I'll be told in this thread that I should just go out of business if I don't like it.

The corporate bootlicking in here deeply concerns me sometimes. We can like the product and the company while disagreeing with them.

And I don't understand your line of logic.

I build a shopping mall, and say "hey, anyone can come sell their stuff here, they just have to pay rent." Customers start flocking to my mall because of all the great stores. Then you come in here and say "I want to sell to these customers and not pay rent." There's a perfectly fine mall across the street where they don't charge rent. But customers don't flock there. Rather than think "well, I'd prefer to not pay rent, but some money is better than none" you say "I deserve to be able to sell to the mall's customers without paying rent."

And to be 100% clear, I actually wish Apple would do a lot of the things the DMA is asking them to. But I have serious issues with REQUIRING them to do so. Especially in a law that is so poorly written, with a "you try to comply, then we'll tell you if you did or not" enforcement mechanism.

 

[MilaM]

Remember, when the 30% cut was originally announced in 2008, developers CHEERED because developers were used to getting less than 30% of sales through the traditional channels, and now were getting 70%.

Fun fact. Even Apple execs thought at some point, that the cut is too big and that it should be lowered. There is evidence from the Epic trial on public record.

 

[platinumaqua]

Let’s be honest: Apple sells many products and services in Europe at prices that are 25% higher than in the US and much of the rest of the world.
If you want to back up data, iCloud is the only option.
If you want to download an app, the App Store was the only option until recently.
Apple has been dictates for decades how its products are used, creating and maintaining a monopoly by forcing users to use their products and services.
I’m not saying this needs to stop, but either offer prices comparable to the competition or continue charging high prices like now but open up to competition.

Local backups to computer still exists despite Apple's push for iCloud

 

[spazzcat]

But they didn't buy my product from Tim's store, they bought it from mine. This would be like Foot Locker getting a cut of Adidas sales made from the Adidas store.

You are missing the point, several people got a cut of those shoes before they made it to the shelf including the rent Adidas had to pay to be in the mall.

 

[spazzcat]

Fun fact. Even Apple execs thought at some point, that the cut is too big and that it should be lowered. There is evidence from the Epic trial on public record.

That is a fairly standard fee structure used by several online stores.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

I build a shopping mall, and say "hey, anyone can come sell their stuff here, they just have to pay rent." Customers start flocking to my mall because of all the great stores. Then you come in here and say "I want to sell to these customers and not pay rent." There's a perfectly fine mall across the street where they don't charge rent. But customers don't flock there. Rather than think "well, I'd prefer to not pay rent, but some money is better than none" you say "I deserve to be able to sell to the mall's customers without paying rent."

That option isn't a real option and you know that. The situation as of now is akin to a town having one mall, and if I don't want to pay their rent I have to open up a store in another town an hour away. Switching to Android is not frictionless, no matter how much you pretend that it is.

Nobody is switching platforms for an app, just like no one is moving for easier access to Victoria's Secret.

 

[spazzcat]

Right? I don't understand their line of logic when it comes to this.

If I only make an Android App, my customers aren't switching platforms to use my app. I have to make an iOS app because market forces demand it. I'm not Adobe, Apple, Google, Microsoft. I am in no position to demand my customers use a certain platform.

The issue becomes that Apple is taking egregious advantage of this position. But I'm sure I'll be told in this thread that I should just go out of business if I don't like it.

The corporate bootlicking in here deeply concerns me sometimes. We can like the product and the company while disagreeing with them.

We get you want access to a very profitable market for free.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

You are missing the point, several people got a cut of those shoes before they made it to the shelf including the rent Adidas had to pay to be in the mall.

And I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is being forced to sell my shoes in Foot Locker, or pay Footlocker a fee for daring to sell them in my own store.

 

[rishey]

Let’s be honest: Apple sells many products and services in Europe at prices that are 25% higher than in the US and much of the rest of the world.
If you want to back up data, iCloud is the only option.
If you want to download an app, the App Store was the only option until recently.
Apple has been dictates for decades how its products are used, creating and maintaining a monopoly by forcing users to use their products and services.
I’m not saying this needs to stop, but either offer prices comparable to the competition or continue charging high prices like now but open up to competition.

How is it a monopoly? Nobody has to buy an Apple smart phone. You can choose Android and do whatever you want with your phone and your backups and all that.

 

[turbineseaplane]

This is a really great point made over at HN

 

[spazzcat]

And I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is being forced to sell my shoes in Foot Locker, or pay Footlocker a fee for daring to sell them in my own store.

Then you shouldn't be ok with the EU telling Apple how they have to run their business.

 

[AppliedMicro]

build a shopping mall, and say "hey, anyone can come sell their stuff here, they just have to pay rent." Customers start flocking to my mall because of all the great stores. Then you come in here and say "I want to sell to these customers and not pay rent." There's a perfectly fine mall across the street where they don't charge rent. But customers don't flock there. Rather than think "well, I'd prefer to not pay rent, but some money is better than none" you say "I deserve to be able to sell to the mall's customers without paying rent."

You are, among others, completely failing (again, again and again) failing to recognise that the competitive situation for both shops in malls is not the same as for digital content and services on mobile devices.

Little shops in malls aren‘t App Stores. And your little (or not so little) neighbourhood mall doesn’t control 25% or 50% (of all revenue) of the nationwide market.

But I have an ideological problem with forcing them to when they have <30% of the market.

…and again, ignoring how Apple commands more than half of the market (as a share of revemue/mobile app spend).

 

[Zest28]

This is a really great point made over at HN

View attachment 2391586

Do you see advertisements in Aldi saying that the same chicken is cheaper in the Lidl?

And do you see in the Lidl advertisements from Aldi saying what the commission fee of Lidl is?

This all is common business practise and it is not something that only the "evil" Apple does.

 

[JordanCautious]

The EU gets a lot of things right, especially in terms of food regulation. But they are absolutely not right in terms of their attempts to regulate technology. I might be biased since I live in the US, but it seems like they made the DMA just to reduce the influence of American Tech Companies on the group's countries. It just so happens that Apple is one of the largest

 

[turbineseaplane]

I might be biased since I live in the US

It's possible, yes

but it seems like they made the DMA just to reduce the influence of American Tech Companies on the group's countries.

Yet nobody but Apple has any issues complying


It's almost like Apple is the problem here

 

[MilaM]

I build a shopping mall

Citing evidence from physical retail stores is really bad logic. There is a reason why it's called DIGITAL MARKETS ACT.