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I didn't know Apple is in any NFT business.

Apple Pay uses a standard NFT chip. It’s nothing special. The day NFT terminals came to Europe we have been able to use apple pay.
Wait. So you're saying that if iPhone business were sold to a subsidiary of Apple, these rules wouldn't apply to them?
Hahahahahahahahaha

Those rules are so poorly written and so much is up for interpretation... I already explained here.
If apple made a: apple iPhone subsidiary, then these rules would apply to the apple iPhone subsidiary. The results would be exactly the same.
So how much revenue is "enough"?
the undertaking to which it belongs achieves an annual EEA turnover equal to or above EUR 6.5 billion in the last three financial years, or where the average market capitalisation or the equivalent fair market value of the undertaking to which it belongs amounted to at least EUR 65 billion in the last financial year, and it provides a core platform service in at least three Member States.

And it provides a core platform service that has more than 45 million monthly active end users established or located in the Union and more than 10 000 yearly active business users established in the Union in the last financial year
 
Those rules are so poorly written and so much is up for interpretation... I already explained here
They are purposely written to give them some leeway - so as not to allow gatekeepers easy circumvention. Competition law is never written with 100% clear-cut definitions about what’s acceptable and what’s not. It’s by interpreted regulators and, if necessary, courts of law.
Apple Pay uses a standard NFT chip. It’s nothing special. The day NFT terminals came to Europe we have been able to use apple pay.
NFC, not NFT ;)
 
Those keys will now be open and easy to steal! It would take me less than 1 day to infect your phone (if you owned an iPhone) and own you!
This is pure stupidity !
No.

This is the basis of cryptography. I’m speaking as someone who is in that field.

There are specific algorithms to exchange keys securely or general PKI. Again your post is completely incorrect.
 
Apple Pay uses a standard NFT chip. It’s nothing special. The day NFT terminals came to Europe we have been able to use apple pay.

If apple made a: apple iPhone subsidiary, then these rules would apply to the apple iPhone subsidiary. The results would be exactly the same.

the undertaking to which it belongs achieves an annual EEA turnover equal to or above EUR 6.5 billion in the last three financial years, or where the average market capitalisation or the equivalent fair market value of the undertaking to which it belongs amounted to at least EUR 65 billion in the last financial year, and it provides a core platform service in at least three Member States.

And it provides a core platform service that has more than 45 million monthly active end users established or located in the Union and more than 10 000 yearly active business users established in the Union in the last financial year

You don't even know what an NFT is...
 
It doesn’t take two seconds to look this stuff up. The reason why I said it is BECAUSE previously I took the few seconds to look it up previously (when someone else had said the same thing). :0)

“[SMS] allows users to send and receive messages of up to 160 characters (when entirely alpha-numeric) to and from GSM mobiles. Although most SMS messages are sent from one mobile phone to another, support for the service has expanded to include other mobile technologies, such as CDMA networks and Digital AMPS.

It was, initially, GSM only because only GSM had it as a feature. Other non-GSM networks adopted it and, with it as a firmly expected feature, all future iterations have included it as well.

Google, since it now controls RCS, (which is merely a standard) does not require a mobile network. In fact it circumvents it entirely and routes the data to Google’s servers… but hey, maybe I’m getting too technical for you.

Google does not control RCS. TWO seconds using Google’s search engine would show…
“RCS is a new online protocol that was chosen for adoption by the GSM Association in 2008 and is meant to replace the current texting standard SMS (Short Message Service), which has been around since the 1990s.”
That’s the GSM Association that were a part of the creation of SMS that have created a new protocol to replace… the current texting standard… SMS.

I feel that your interest in RCS might even come close to mine. When I first heard about it, it seemed like something that was on the edge of being rolled out by the GSMA and being great. Since then, carrier after carrier has refused to but in the effort/money to make it a thing (as they’d all have to do it for it to be worth it). At the carrier level, it would have been SMS, the next generation. That Google has picked it up ISN’T a sign of strength. That carriers are willing to “let Google handle that RCS thing” isn’t a ringing endorsement of the solution. It’s a recognition by the carriers, that they can literally “do nothing” and continue to make big money on shuttling tiny text messages around.

Google’s solution is, because it’s not at the carrier level, is “just another app”. Like WhatsApp, like Signal, like Telegram. And, as a result, it’s no better than any of those, it’s just one more icon with data that’s secured within itself and not shared with any other network. My fear is that Google’s efforts are the last gasp of RCS and that, once they fail at it like they’ve failed at literally every messaging effort they’ve tried, the carriers aren’t going to be proposing anything even remotely as close to the ubiquity of SMS anytime soon (not without first figuring out how to seriously upcharge for it).


Sigh... where to even start with your terribly incorrect post. It does take 2 seconds to look this stuff up. It really isn't difficult.

First, yes - it first came available on GSM. Like I keep saying -- it uses the paging line to keep your phone connected to the tower. So a lightbulb went off with other techs, including dAMPS - 1G if you will - and they said "gee whiz, we can do that too since there's excess bandwidth there"... and since it's INHERENTLY THERE on any network type, lo-and-behold it worked. It isn't, and never was, a GSM feature. Just someone looking at the connection and seeing some open space. And since GSM died at 2G, it was something repeated, over and over again.

And Google ABSOLUTELY controls RCS. 100% controls it. All servers are Google servers on the current iteration. You seem to be very confused on the difference between a set of specifications adopted by the GSM Association and who actually runs the show. Did you know that the 3GPP developed the specifications for UMTS out of W-CDMA, then LTE, and now NR? They sure did... and Qualcomm owns virtually every patent on the radio technologies - they seemed to have successfully sued Apple for not paying royalties; Samsung barely ever uses its own chipset outside of Korea because of the patents. See how that works?

Google runs RCS, they circumvented the carriers who all had their own closed-off systems. Even Samsung had their own prior to pairing up with Google -- it was a big deal that Samsung dropped their own messaging app for Google. Google Chat RCS doesn't talk to T-Mobile Advanced Messaging. It doesn't talk to Verizon Advanced Messaging. It doesn't talk to AT&T Advanced Messaging. It doesn't talk to any global networks singular deployment of RCS, period. And none of them talked to one-another either. See the problem yet? Because RCS doesn't require a centralized system, each carrier set up their own messaging platform, and world, and lorded over it.

Enter Google, with its Chat Universal Profile. It ripped away control from the carriers, made their own app that also worked with SMS, enabled RCS on every Android phone that used this app, and completely circumvented the carriers. There are ZERO third-party APIs to access Google's RCS platform. None. You can't do it. Google controls RCS, and any push for others to adopt it is merely a push by Google to control messaging.

Here's an article from the Android Police calling Google out for this... https://www.androidpolice.com/googles-rcs-drama-with-apple-explained/

I mean, I tried to tell you that you were mistaken, and only explained this... several times. It seems like your interest in RCS simply lacks any level of comprehension, since you seem to fail to understand even the most basic pieces of it. And I particularly appreciate this line from that link, which I've also said at least twice... "it’s all tied to a phone number. (Though we should point out, more recent Universal Profile specifications actually allow that to be decoupled, relying instead on an OpenID.)" -- and that link inside that quote... ouch.

Sorry... I tried...
 
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There are dozens of smartphone manufacturers. There are new companies entering this market all the time.

When was the last time a company established their own country. Stop trying to defend this stupid, ridiculous idea.

This is the last time I'm going to waste time responding to this stupidity.
So, you do think that your suggestion that every developer who wants access to hardware should make their own phones is a smart suggestion?
 
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Yes. And internet lines too.
But they aren’t controlled, locked down and, yes, governed by a core platform provider.

You can literally go to the store, purchase a SIM card, pop it in your choice of phone and begin to provide your own phone sex service. Using the payment provider you like.

I the phone company or manufacturer going to reject your service for its sexual content based on moral standards? No. Do they charge a 30% commission on your subscriptions? No. You just do business on their platform without their interference (though of course you have to obey the relevant laws)

Yes - but not for the broad multi-sidness of services that smartphones do.
Broadly speaking, game consoles are sold to and used by video gamers - only.
Smartphones and mobile apps by “everyone”.

I won’t be getting into a back and forth with you quoting bits of the legislation that also apply to the gaming market to quote others that don’t.


Android is heavily integrated as well, when the developer makes its own (Pixel) phones, operates the (by far) biggest application store (bing the only app store through which apps by most regulated companies are available), internet search and map services etc.
One important part is that games can be sold anywhere. Buy Xbox games online, in store, gift cards pre owned, GameStop, Amazon, Walmart etc etc
 
The game consoles can be used for (1) gaming, (2) communications, (3) streaming movies. That's "multi".

Vertical integration is up for interpretation. How vertical are those Android devices? Do the phone makers develop their own CPUs for those phones? How many of them developed their own OS for their phones?

It just goes to show how poorly thought out and written these rules are. It needs to be tossed in the garbage.
Vertically integrated products aren’t prevented, and it shows you haven’t even read the law. Being a gatekeeper prevents you from doing specific actions and to be classified as a gate keeper you need to meet specific requirements of user base in EU and revenue.

Not a single android phone manufacturer meets these requirements, except google.
Not necessarily. Facebook, Signal etc would not have to make themselves communicate with iMessage, just the other way around. Apple must give them that option.

It makes far more sense for them to want to keep their apps separate.
If signal asks apple to share iMessage application communication access, then it goes both ways
It's unfair that Epic is a gatekeeper in Fortnite. I want to be able to side load weapons from Apex Legends and vehicles from Mario Kart.

They should all be interoperable.
You don’t know what a gatekeeper is.
 
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Vertically integrated products aren’t prevented, and it shows you haven’t even read the law. Being a gatekeeper prevents you from doing specific actions and to be classified as a gate keeper you need to meet specific requirements of user base in EU and revenue.

Not a single android phone manufacturer meets these requirements, except google.

If signal asks apple to share iMessage application communication access, then it goes both ways

You don’t know what a gatekeeper is.

Screen Shot 2022-07-06 at 7.06.47 PM.png
 
“Other characteristics of core platform services are very strong network effects, an ability to connect many business users with many end users through the multi-sidedness of these services, a significant degree of dependence of both business users and end users, lock-in effects, a lack of multi-homing for the same purpose by end users, vertical integration, and data driven-advantages.”

Where does that ban vertical integration?
 
And if I want to use a platform that isn't fragmented across multiple app stores and payment systems? If the utility of a smartphone is in the applications it supports but I no longer have a choice of platform that gives me a full spectrum of applications through a common, trusted portal?
Then don’t use those options. Nothing forced me to use any other storefront than steam. Today thousands if not millions of applications aren’t available on iOS because the developer refuse to release it on iOS.
My ability to choose a platform that meets my needs has been curtailed just so we can have yet another android look-alike. Android is open sourced-- go fork it and create the OS you want. If there was a demand for it, someone would have.
It’s a macOS lookalike. And android can’t be made to look like iOS as apple own the patents.
I always need to figure out legitimate payment methods online. I focus my transactions through a very limited number of trusted portals.
Sounds terrible, and I have never had to do that as my bank or any EU bank forces you to verify any online purchases.
This is where a citation would be useful.
Vivendi SA is a French company.
SAP is a German company
Zalando is a German company

They all fit the DMA definition as gatekeeper and are.

EU rules include EU companies.
Punishment should fit the crime. 20% of worldwide annual revenue is not fitting. It's more than the total revenue Apple draws from the EU. Overreach plain and simple, and a cash grab.
Notice how the law say up to 10%.
And if you’re a repeat offender it’s up to 20%. And if you continue it will be broken up or be banned from imports.

It’s only a cash grab if you intend to break the law. The requirements are almost crystal clear and impossible to break unknowingly.
Why not prevent import of the products? Even when they discus "other remedies" they only discuss solutions that don't prevent import of or access two the "illegal" products and services. The reason is that they know banning imports will anger their constituents deprive them of a revenue stream.
Why would the ban imports? It’s a free market.
You can sell chicken in EU, but you can’t sell chlorinated chicken. (You) but why don’t they just ban chicken…
 
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So, if Apple wants to play by its own rules it should have to make all of its own software/apps? An iPhone App Store should only have Apple developed software??
I suppose that is a legitimate possibility in today's climate. Not really what Jobs envisioned, but maybe the way things are going, that is the direction Apple should move into. Fix the browser so it's more open and most apps wouldn't be needed.
 
Today thousands if not millions of applications aren’t available on iOS because the developer refuse to release it on iOS.
Oh, it’s not just developers.
It’s also Apple that refuse approval of certain apps from public distribution.
I suppose that is a legitimate possibility in today's climate. Not really what Jobs envisioned, but maybe the way things are going, that is the direction Apple should move into
They’d be screwed if they do. You can develop web apps as well and polished as you like - they will feel second-rate to native apps especially in gaming apps. Which happen to be Apple biggest revenue drivers on the App Store.

Can I see Apple implementing conformance to EU on EU App Stores only? Yes.
Can see them trying to circumvent the legislation and fight implementation details in court? Yes.
Can I see them using technical means to restrict access to EU App Stores from non-EU countries? Yes.
Can I see them sell an EU iPhone edition and be conformant on these phones (that were distributed in the EU) only? Yes.

Does it make any sense to neuter is biggest software/services revenue driver by discontinuing distribution of native gaming apps?
👉 The idea is just inane (beyond the retaliatory phantasies of fanbois).

PS: …as is the idea of withdrawing from the EU market. Especially when the U.S. has similar legislation coming up with regards to sideloading, and other countries do too.
There’s little point in withdrawing from the EU but not the US, when both enact a right to sideload.
 
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Assuming the sales of smartphones per capita are (more or less) similar between the US and the EU (which I still do), the estimate is reasonable. The EU market for Apple is smaller - but not „tiny“ compared to their home market, as was suggested.
No. I’ll leave you to look up what marketshare means, but as it undoes your point, you can just continue to think that, out of EVERY 10 people in the EU, 2 of them currently own iPhones. :)
I‘m not aware of major consumers businesses having withdrawn from the EU.
That’s ONLY because you haven’t looked it up because you don’t want to be aware of any facts that don’t support your position. If only there was some engine for searching across some kind of network of interconnected systems…
That’s not what I said.
Apple is doing it on their platform.

Apple used to sell smartphones. They then created a software application store that today controls („gatekeeps“) effective access to consumers for substantial parts of the economy digital sales and services: ride-hailing, public transit, music and video streaming sales and subscriptions, dating, personal communication, online banking, retail payments - while moving to offer their own products against competitors.

The bundling and self-preferencing of their products needs to stop to ensure competition and innovation - and prevent a duopoly of all-controlling megacorporations that dystopian science-fiction warned us of.
Ah, well, the thing I described is an actual antitrust violation. The thing you’re describing is… not that. :)

Apple didn’t USED to sell smartphones, they still do. Far fewer smartphones than would approach anyone’s definition of actual dominance in the EU. Never fear, though, because EU can happily state that Apple has a 100% monopoly over everything with an Apple’s trademarked logo on it!

Apple needs to open up their platform so that… more competing smartphone platforms can be created… creating more competition in the marketplace? Is that what opening up the iOS platform will do? Create a more vibrant and competitive market for smartphones (again, of which Apple is already at a huge disadvantage)? Seems like to me, if the problem is that the gatekeepers have too much control, then legislating MORE control to them is at cross-purposes. After all is said and done, will there be MORE options for consumers or the SAME options for consumers? If it’s not more, if they’re still buying from an iOS App Store or an Android App Store, then it’s really not accomplishing the stated goals. Which is kinda obvious for anyone that’s not holding a “I wanna see something bad happen to Apple” banner.
 
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Exactly, "if".

If they force Apple to turn iPhones in to "dumb terminals", it will be a race to the bottom where the only thing that matters is lowest price.
Not at all. iPhones started as dumb phones. Apple hardware is notoriously over priced. And still people buy them. Why?

Why would you expect iPhones to do worse than apple selling MacBook Pro or Mac Pro?

iPhones will just become more like macOS. NOT, more like android
 
See definition 1b.


You put “dominance” in quotes to indicate that the definition you’re using is in no way related to the actual definition of dominance, and that’s fair. “Dominance” can be defined in whatever way anyone wants to, they can say a 3 inch worm is “dominant” to a 10 inch worm because “dominance” in that case is being defined as something that’s “considerably smaller”. Dominance, as an english translatable word that may have analogs in other languages does not have the same meaning as the EU’s “dominance”. Which, of course, is why they’re using their made up “gatekeeper” instead.


You do realize that, as a rationale for their recent actions, the EU is indicating that the problem is that Apple has a 100% monopoly on Apple iOS apps, right?

“European regulators tend to take the view that the relevant market is “iOS apps,” and here Apple has a 100% monopoly on their sale and distribution.”

Yes, that's what's being done here. 30% is not dominant, it is not close to monopoly power, and it is not close to being an effective cudgel in giving them a monopoly in another market.

As you say, they're being targeted merely for being successful.

Look up the definition I posted above.

"very important, powerful, or successful"


The problem is the you have zero data showing the breakdown of iPhone users who chose iPhone specifically because it has a single source for apps, iPhone users who chose an iPhone for their primary concerns but still wish they could install from third-party sources, and iPhone users who don't give a crap one way or the other. If that many people actually care about getting their apps from a single place then that will be reflected in the market by hoards of iPhone users refusing to move off of the iOS App Store for their apps and companies responding to that by continuing to offer their app on the App Store.


Not monopoly. Duopoly. Which markets would not consider controlling over 30% of a market enormously successful, i.e. a dominant player? I would imagine the EU sees a company as being able to unilaterally control what 30% of consumers are able to do as a significant issue. Not to mention Apple's actions outside of the EU have the ability to impact businesses based in the EU. If the EU's new law results in Apple making these changes globally and the curbing of Apple's anti-competitive actions in the U.S. where Apple has over half the market then that is potentially to the benefit of EU companies and developers as well.
You’re all wrong in the definition of dominance. Directly sited from EUs legal text.

The dominant position thus referred to by Article [82] relates to a position of economic strength enjoyed by an undertaking which enables it to prevent effective competition being maintained on the relevant market by affording it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of its competitors,

A definition apple fulfill perfectly, and this is a definition made in 2004, when apple was closer to bankruptcy than being a dominant player.
 
NFC is multi-purpose. Why can’t my credit card also carry my debit card number and my hotel key?

Just make a law and sort out the details later? Not sure it’s possible, but the law will make them do it? That sounds like as much thought as the EU put into it…
I would bet the reason is they are physically incapable of storing more data than the card. And apple compete with same vendors, credit cards only compete with other cards.
 
Apple should just sell the iPhones in EU with no OS of software installed. Leave it up to customers to install whatever software and/or OS they like. Like how Raspberry Pis come with no software or OS installed.

iOS should be given away for free via download and users should be free to install it on any hardware they can get it to run on. Who knows... It may install and run on those EU iPhones...

Complete freedom. Zero lock in. Everything is decided by the customers.
 
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Apple should just sell the iPhones in EU with no OS of software installed. Leave it up to customers to install whatever software and/or OS they like. Like how Raspberry Pis come with no software or OS installed.

iOS should be given away for free via download and users should be free to install it on any hardware they can get it to run on. Who knows... It may install and run on those EU iPhones...

Complete freedom. Zero lock in. Everything is decided by the customers.
100% apple would rather go bankrupt than allow other to install a custom OS or run android on iPhone hardware
Fascinating text you have provided. Now where does it say vertical integration is illegal?

Or do use the same mental gymnastics as when I accidentally said NFT instead of NFC?
 
100% apple would rather go bankrupt than allow other to install a custom OS or run android on iPhone hardware

Fascinating text you have provided. Now where does it say vertical integration is illegal?

Or do use the same mental gymnastics as when I accidentally said NFT instead of NFC?

How do you know what is on Apple's mind or what they are willing to do?

Android can already be installed on iPhones.

If you read the text on the Digital Markets Act, you would know that they use vertical integration as a basis to create these rules.

It's not my fault you didn't read the entire exchange and blindly butted in and followed the other guy in saying Apple was in the NFT business. I'm not a psychic. If you say NFT, I think NFT. How the hell do I know you meant NFC?
 
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Apple should just sell the iPhones in EU with no OS of software installed. Leave it up to customers to install whatever software and/or OS they like. Like how Raspberry Pis come with no software or OS installed.

iOS should be given away for free via download and users should be free to install it on any hardware they can get it to run on. Who knows... It may install and run on those EU iPhones...

Complete freedom. Zero lock in. Everything is decided by the customers.

You mean remove preferential treatment of Apple software and allow sideloading, multiple app stores, multiple payment systems, multiple browser engines, etc.?

Gee, why didn’t customers, developers, and regulators think of asking Apple to do that? /s
 
You mean remove preferential treatment of Apple software and allow sideloading, multiple app stores, multiple payment systems, multiple browser engines, etc.?

Gee, why didn’t customers, developers, and regulators think of asking Apple to do that? /s

No, I mean remove everything including OS.

The customers, developers, and regulators didn't ask for that. The EU wants iOS changed. I'm suggesting that Apple should not change any part of iOS. Just ship iPhones with no software and no OS.

Those who want to be able to side load, want multiple app stores, multiple payment systems, multiple browser engines, etc. are free to install some other OS that would allow that.
 
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When the government forces you to give away your tech, it will disincentivize innovation.
Which is why one does not see “Facebooks” or “Googles” or “Apples” coming out of the EU. No company has an incentive to be hugely popular or successful. We can all be assured that the NEXT “Apple” won’t be produced from the EU either. And, if that business decides to operate in the EU region, there’s no doubt they will restrict operations to avoid the “successful” sorry, I must use the EU’s word here for successful… “gatekeeper” status.

I’m wagering that a LOT of companies are glad this happened prior to the rollout of their upcoming next generation technologies. As the next wave of new tech starts to do the same thing to the smartphone that the laptop did to the desktop, these companies will be ensuring that they adhere properly to the new regulations and apply appropriate limits on their operations where necessary. They’ll be trying to make money in the EU without being “successful” or, in the EU translation, “gatekeeper”.
 
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