European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

[Kullenius]

You still have to pay for your windows license which you were arguing a few posts up was unacceptable for those with music on a windows platform if they wanted to move to mac! Your going round in circles.

Maybe reading would help. I'm stating, and have done so all the time, that people are used to being able to play there music anytime anywhere, they don't think those things have changes just because they did the mistake of not reading smallprints, and then searching forums to find out what those thing meant to them, before ordering from iTunes (and it's likes).

Read my post above about software, and it might say pling to why I'm not even bother saying in which ways you state me wrong. And once again, it's oranges and apples.

 

[eenu]

You are paying for a Windows licence when you buy a Dell as well. The price of the licence is included in the price you pay Dell. If you want to run Windows on a Mac, you can, but the price of Windows is not (and why should it) included in the price of the machine.

Re read what i said you have not understood. I never said that the license for windows was included! I was saying that your fellow ascandanavians argument about running windows on the mac was flawed as you still had to pay for it. This was in response to his moan that people with Zunes who move to mac shouldn't have to pay to use windows to get their music on the mac via windows. Yet his argument about not being locked into OSX on mac hardware was that you could run windows! His argument went round in circles where hecontradicted himself.

Software is NOT, repeat after me, NOT, the same as media files with DRM. A Word created by Eminem with DRM would. Apple does not hold the copyright to the media files, and should not limit you to where you can and cannot use them.

BEEP! Wrong answer! Apple does indeed not hold the copyright but the copyright holders have agreed to license that music to iTMS under apples restrictions and terms. Those restrictions and terms belong to apple and are therefore apples choice to do with as they please. The Copyright holders are happy and so is Apple and hence the EU is pissing in the wind with this one.

 

[crassusad44]

INCORRECT! I couldn't take my software! Some of your files may not work as they were made in mac specific software, pictures are free you took them yourself (therefore no expense involved and you own the copyright ) and i'm interested to know how you have movies on your machine (if you refer to commercial ones) without them at this point in time being locked to a specific platform unless of course they are DVD rips which is illegal. Mind you it appears that in Scandinavia you don't care about the legalities of things and are that liberal to think that DVD ripping would be fine and within your rights. Hell i can't wait to see you lot moan that the Blu-ray or HD-DVD disks you bought can't play on the rivals players! And god forbid you buy the losing format!

If anyones argument is flawed its yours! I have to use both platforms so i know the ins and outs of a conversion and there would certainly be a large amount of cost and inconvenience caused if i wanted to move back to a PC. Not that i care because i knew that when i moved to Mac....I MADE AN INFORMED DECISION! and if i change my mind....its my own tough ****

You are comparing apples to oranges here. That is why your argument is flawed. No, I cannot use my software when (not that it is going to happen) I buy a Windows PC. But software is something other than media files with DRM. One cannot expect Apple Aperture, than uses OS X only technology quite heavily, to be able to run on Windows, but you should expect your media files to do so. Blue-Ray and HD-DVD are two different technologies, but they are open for different vendors to use, and some clever geniouses have already designed and shipped players that support both formats. Apple's DRM should be open for others to use (of course they will have to pay a fee), so that it could be implemented in other products than only those from Apple. If you come up with valid arguments, I will listen to you. But right now your logic has gone bye-bye...

 

[eenu]

But software is something other than media files with DRM. One cannot expect Apple Aperture, than uses OS X only technology quite heavily, to be able to run on Windows, but you should expect your media files to do so.

If i make a timeplan in Mac Software A i run a large risk of it not opening in Windows Software B. I took that risk its tough ****. Same with my media files.

 

[Kullenius]

Is that the consumers of Norway or the lawmakers of Norway? Can you post a link to the these official findings? I honestly want to read it. I understand there are PARTS of the EULA that the Scandanavian countries disagree with, but EULAs are still honored (if legal), right?

I doubt that Apple+RIAA would ever allow a single song to be sold in the Land of Lutefisk without covering themselves legally.

http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.93136
Sorry for having it in Swedish, but it goes something like this:

Norway's "forbrukereombudet" is stating that the music service iTunes is illegal, because the music that is bought from them only can be played with Apples own iPods and not with other brands. Apple have to 1st of October, and have no changes been done by then Apples faces trials where fees and removal from the Norwegian market threatens.

Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and France also have iTunes in one way or another under it's loop.

Not only should the files be opened for other music players, it is also stated that the iTunes EULA have to comply with the laws in the country the user resides, and that iTunes will not be allowed to change the EULA afterhand.

And the last part for all Apple fanboys out there: Apple says they will not comply without a fight.

 

[eenu]

http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.93136
Sorry for having it in Swedish, but it goes something like this:

Norway's "forbrukereombudet" is stating that the music service iTunes is illegal, because the music that is bought from them only can be played with Apples own iPods and not with other brands. Apple have to 1st of October, and have no changes been done by then Apples faces trials where fees and removal from the Norwegian market threatens.

Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and France also have iTunes in one way or another under it's loop.

Not only should the files be opened for other music players, it is also stated that the iTunes EULA have to comply with the laws in the country the user resides, and that iTunes will not be allowed to change the EULA afterhand.

And the last part for all Apple fanboys out there: Apple says they will not comply without a fight.

Good Apple should fight and win and if not just withdraw from your countries and tell you to stick it.

 

[Kullenius]

If i make a timeplan in Mac Software A i run a large risk of it not opening in Windows Software B. I took that risk its tough ****. Same with my media files.

Yes, Mac software A will not be opened by Windows software B. But Media is C and work on both Mac and Windows (and a million other devices and OS). C with DRM don't work, but most people don't even know what DRM is, and belives that there C DRM will work just like all there other C's.

 

[Kullenius]

Good Apple should fight and win and if not just withdraw from your countries and tell you to stick it.

I know, it's pure horror that we think that consumers also have rights.

 

[eenu]

Yes, Mac software A will not be opened by Windows software B. But Media is C and work on both Mac and Windows (and a million other devices and OS). C with DRM don't work, but most people don't even know what DRM is, and belives that there C DRM will work just like all there other C's.

Again, this is not Apple's problem! Consumers should make informed decisions before buying!

Look i love open formats and the freedom to do as you please with your data. My gripe with this is, apple has never hidden the fact its stores tunes will only work on an ipod and apple isnt the only store out there....consumers still have choices and alternatives!

 

[whooleytoo]

What is beginning to grate, though, are the number of people claiming that they are being restricted to buying an iPod. Why? No-one buys an iPod just for iTMS, nor does it require one. The choice is still there.

Want your music portable and unencumbered by DRM? Buy a CD, and rip it yourself.

It's not just an iPod though, the problem is music, which once was widely and freely usable now is a fragmented market of different DRMs some more restrictive than others, but all incompatible with each other.

It's a mess, and I genuinely believe it's hurting the digital music market. And it's such a shame, digital downloads are such a fantastic service: a huge selection (compared to what's available in stores here), almost instant purchase, ability to preview before you buy.

But the problem is, it's two steps forward, one step back: if you want all these benefits, you limit your choice of music player, because of customer lock-in.

Ultimately though, what may cause Apple (specifically) problems if it goes to court is the fact that they pro-actively and deliberately broke compatibility with Real's Harmony on the iPod. It will take one hell of a spin from Apple legal to convince anyone that's not anti-competitive behavour.

On your last point - I have no problem with DRM per se, it's the mess of incompatible DRM schemas that I hate. If we can have the benefits of digital music distribution without the ball-and-chain of customer lock-in, I'm all for it. Why wouldn't I be?

 

[Rustus Maximus]

Hmm, Sweden has a kick as economy, how is it with the US now again?... Scandinavia don't really have begging and people sleeping on the streets, how was it with US now again? Scandinavian countries are always on top on any charts for standard and best living, clearly that is proof of backward economy and social philosophies to a T.

How is it with the US...um...how about an economy that is 45 times larger than yours...with a labor force that is 33 times the size of yours and yet has an unemployment rate of 4.5% compared to one of nearly 9% in Sweden. The US has a debt to GDP ratio of around 35% compared to Sweden's at 50.3%.

Sweden has no homeless people? Hmmmm?

Scandanavian countries are also on the top of the charts for something else...taxation rates. Probably due in part to all those wonderful social programs ie. spreading the wealth. Which in turn probably explains the projected slowdown of GDP growth in Sweden due to occur by 2010 as well as the higher prices you have there and a host of other "great" things about living in your redistributionist paradise.

By the way, do you know that laws differs in different countries? That's why it doesn't matter much what EULA states if it's not according to the law of the country you going to use it in. Norway for example have stated that iTunes EULA isn't legal, so why would a Norwegian be interested in reading that EULA?

I am well aware that laws are different in different countries. However if Norway or Sweden or any of the other Scandanavian paradise lands begin to choose what parts of Apple's legal EULA they like and which parts they don't like...then maybe Apple needs to think about just how much music those 10,000,000 Swedes are going to buy and cut their losses in favor of principle. Their is nothing illegal in Apple's Fairplay, I don't care what the wise sages in Scandanavia say.

No, it's not valid. If you play a music file it works on any device as long as you don't hinder it with DRM. A windows file only works on that os, and since the api's changes from time to time, it might not even work on older ones. To make it work with other companies os and there api's requires a lot of extra work - spelled money. Extra work to lessen the value, or extra work to make it even possible.

Lessening value...hmmm...which is exactly why Apple doens't want to allow their tracks from iTunes to be played just anywhere. It increases the value of their iPods. Requires people to buy one if they want to have access to purchased music through iTunes. Sounds like good business to me and I believe the sales numbers and market share speak for themselves on this one.

 

[jimmyh03]

This is the big problem:
Everyone's thinking all technical like, not in a moral way, why should iTunes have to do this fairplay thingy? Apple users have been discriminated (extreme word I kno) most of their life by Windows software/hardware manufacturers and users, it's a simple case of "Do as I say not as I do" such as seen in "negotiations" between the US or UK and numerous countries to the east of the Atlantic.....yeah i'm sooo off subject now so i'll shut up lol 4 Lyf

 

[scott523]

In a music perspective, I have no problems with FairPlay since I have an iPod shuffle. However, I am a little disappointed that I can't watch movies purchased from iTunes on my TV by burning it onto a DVD. This is where the new TV (more $$$) comes into play...

 

[eenu]

In a music perspective, I have no problems with FairPlay since I have an iPod shuffle. However, I am a little disappointed that I can't watch movies purchased from iTunes on my TV by burning it onto a DVD. This is where the new TV (more $$$) comes into play...

To be honest Scott this may change in the future.....the movie store is only available in the US and very much in its infancy.

 

[danp]

This is a highly amusing thread to read.

DRM as a concept isn't a great fit to the current digital landscape. DRM was a response to the p2p networks -- essentially Napster-era technology (late 90s). Things have moved on. They're thinking about rules and laws that support digital content distribution on the Myspaces and Youtubes of the digital world.

The big music labels aren't thinking in terms of DRM anymore - its all about blanket licencing for unprotected content, potentially charged at the ISP level.

Cases like this prove that governments and law makers are also thinking the same.

So why are a handful of zealots getting so hot under the collar over it? Purely because someone dare attack their precious Apple?!

Don't assume they're exclusively bashing Apple. If this law goes through on a wide scale, it will have ramifications for all other digital music vendors. Europe are simply targetting the biggest (iTMS) to make their point.

Furthermore, Apple have operated the most successful DRM-laden music store in the world. There is no reason to assume they won't also operate the most successful non-DRM-laden music store. The end-to-end iPod-iTunes-iTMS solution will be just as strong, only without pesky DRM in the mix. Chill out a bit!

 

[maxp1]

It's not just an iPod though, the problem is music, which once was widely and freely usable now is a fragmented market of different DRMs some more restrictive than others, but all incompatible with each other.

This isn't true. Music has always been restricted by the format that it was delivered in. When music moved from LP to CD many people had to re-buy their whole music collection on CD. Did you hear them bitching about about it? Well, yes. But nobody said "I should be able to play my old LPs on my new CD player" Let's not even get into tape.

Format conversion is always a possibility. It's a bit of a pain and requires a couple extra steps but that's always been the case. I just don't see what's wrong with this.

 

[eenu]

This is a highly amusing thread to read.

So why are a handful of zealots getting so hot under the collar over it? Purely because someone dare attack their precious Apple?!

Don't assume they're exclusively bashing Apple. If this law goes through on a wide scale, it will have ramifications for all other digital music vendors. Europe are simply targetting the biggest (iTMS) to make their point.

You clearly haven't read the whole thread after writing that. As i have clearly said TIME and TIME again! I love my files to be in ISO standards and open to do with as i please. The point is Apple and other distributors have sold music with restrictions to their hardware or too a platform player. As a consumer you buy into these restrictions and that is your choice to do so. It is not for a European court to say to Apple you can't do that as LEGALLY it is fully entitled to do so.

 

[Stella]

If an E.U Court finds that Apple is acting against the local law, then it has every right to keep Apple in line.

It is not for a European court to say to Apple you can't do that as LEGALLY it is fully entitled to do so.

 

[eenu]

If an E.U Court finds that Apple is acting against the local, then it has every right to keep Apple in line.

I live in the EU and have studied law, i have been researching this whole thing since the thread started and i find it very hard to see how the EU will enforce this! It's certainly not a clear cut case. Apple legal should be able to get their teeth into this!

EDIT - DID you change that from 'EU Law' to 'Local Law'? Since my quote is different to your post and to what i am sure i read.

 

[Stella]

I live in the EU and have studied law, i have been researching this whole thing since the thread started and i find it very hard to see how the EU will enforce this! It's certainly not a clear cut case. Apple legal should be able to get their teeth into this!

EDIT - DID you change that from 'EU Law' to 'Local Law'? Since my quote is different to your post and to what i am sure i read.

yes, I did change it - EU to local law - to make it apparent that I was talking about individual European countrys court and not the EU Court entity.

It may not be a clear cut case - but each side can still give it a go!

 

[maxp1]

What are you really saying is:
"Until I have the same point of view to yours, I won't 'get it'."

Get real.

1. If I buy any music (phillips standard ) CD I can play it on any CD player.
2. I buy a (phillips standard ) CD but can only play it on 'Manufacture A' CD player.

If (2) were to occur there would be consumer outrage, just like there was deep unhappiness about DVD region-ing.

This is going back a ways, but I have to ask you to stop making this anology between CDs and Fairplay/AACS files.

First, when crippled CDs were introduced there was a consumer outrage. They had broken the standard and would not play on any CD player. Something had been promised and then retracted. This is not what's happening with Fairplay/AACS.

Compact Disk is an open standard that anyone can use. It's published by Phillips Electronics and I believe that the only restriction is that to use the term CD or Compact Disk on your music player you have to fully implement the standard and play ANY correctly coded compact disk in your player. Likewise, to produce a compact disk with the CD label you have to correctly implement the standard. With the copy protected CDs that were produced a while back there was actually a lawsuit to force them to remove the CD label for the disks because they had not correctly implemented the standard.

Fairplay is not a standard. It is not open and nobody has the expectation that it is open. Would it be nice if it were a standard? Yes. No doubt about it. But should a government force Apple to make it a standard? No, Absolutely not.

 

[eenu]

This is going back a ways, but I have to ask you to stop making this anology between CDs and Fairplay/AACS files.

First, when crippled CDs were introduced there was a consumer outrage. They had broken the standard and would not play on any CD player. Something had been promised and then retracted. This is not what's happening with Fairplay/AACS.

Compact Disk is an open standard that anyone can use. It's published by Phillips Electronics and I believe that the only restriction is that to use the term CD or Compact Disk on your music player you have to fully implement the standard and play ANY correctly coded compact disk in your player. Likewise, to produce a compact disk with the CD label you have to correctly implement the standard. With the copy protected CDs that were produced a while back there was actually a lawsuit to force them to remove the CD label for the disks because they had not correctly implemented the standard.

Fairplay is not a standard. It is not open and nobody has the expectation that it is open. Would it be nice if it were a standard? Yes. No doubt about it. But should a government force Apple to make it a standard? No, Absolutely not.

Really good post maxp1 with a really good point!

 

[Stella]

Once again, I see no difference between CDs and Fairplay - its still music, just different format. Users shouldn't be locked in.

I won't be able to comply with your wishes.

This is going back a ways, but I have to ask you to stop making this anology between CDs and Fairplay/AACS files.

* And I still haven't heard a good enough argument that will change my mind.

 

[eenu]

Once again, I see no difference between CDs and Fairplay - its still music, just different format. Users shouldn't be locked in.

I won't be able to comply with your wishes.



* And I still haven't heard a good enough argument that will change my mind.

I don't see the difference between windows software and mac software and xbox and PS games. Its still software just a different format.......

EDIT: and yes i know that is very over simplified and there is far more to it that format but you see the point.....on no wait you don't!

 

[maxp1]

Once again, I see no difference between CDs and Fairplay - its still music, just different format. Users shouldn't be locked in.

I won't be able to comply with your wishes.



* And I still haven't heard a good enough argument that will change my mind.

You should read my post then. Open standard VS non-open standard. I just can't see how you can disagree with that argument. What you think it should be doesn't come into it. I am pointing out what IS. The current situation. And the current situation is that CD is an open standard and Fairplay/AACS is not. Your analogy does not hold up.

I am not saying by any means that it's good that Apple has created a non-open music format. There are plusses and minuses to it and overall I think it would probably be better if it were an open standard. But Apple gets to decide. Not me, not consumers, not some govenment organization. They created the format and it is theirs to do with as they please.

Can you tell me why Apple shouldn't be able to control their format?