European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

[crassusad44]

Maybe this analogy is more relevant: I wanted to buy an SLR camera. There are many different manufacturers out there, each with pros and cons. I realized before making my purchase that I'm buying more than a camera, I'm buying into a company who is the sole source of lenses, flashes, and other add-ons for that camera. I bought Canon which means I cannot buy Nikon, Pentax, etc. Should I expect Canon to somehow enable me to use Nikon lenses? Absolutely not, I bought into an entire line of camera products, I can blame nobody but myself (and I blame nobody, I am very pleased).

And this analogy is more relevant because...? The difference in physical and electronic technology in Canon and Nikon mounts, makes it difficult to create interoperable lenses, flashes etc. But I can readily buy a Tamron or Tokina lens for my Canon EOS body. And I can buy an adapter ring to use old Zeiss lenses for Nikon F-mount on my Canon. File formats are built on the same technology (0's and 1's). Apple should licence (not open up as many here assume the EU countries are asking fore) its Fairplay DRM, so that players from Creative, Samsung, Sandisk and others can play songs you bought from iTS. That's your music that you have bought, and you should not be bound to one music player. It makes sense for Apple's buisness, but not for me as a consumer. If I buy $500 worth of music to play with my iPod, but then want to buy a Sandisk Sansa instead, why should I have to buy that $500 worth of music again? If it were a different technology (eg. cassette vs. CD, IBM chips vs. Intel chips) I would understand it, but a music file format should be able to play on all computer electronics. Apple IS restricting you to buy iPods and not Creative. It should not be like this, and I honestly cannot understand the hyper-Apple-zealots in this forum that thinks this is a good idea. Yes, I do know music bought from iTS is restricted, yes I DO have a choice to buy or not to buy from Apple. But I think Apple (and MS, and others) should give me the opportunity to use the music where I WANT. It will be interesting to see what Apple does when the music industry moves towards a more open DRM scheme (they ARE talking about it). If Apple continues to not licence Fairplay, this will tell more about Apple than the music industry...

*end of rant*

 

[Dunepilot]

I'm not a fan of DRM exactly, but I'm intrigued to know how tying one file to a device is any different from UMDs only playing on Sony PSPs?

 

[whooleytoo]

As much as it would pain me, it would serve the EU right if Apple shut down the stores. I've several iPods, and have purchased several albums from iTMS, but at no point was I deceived into thinking I could play the tracks on any other generic MP3 player. If it mattered that much to me, I would have bought the album on CD and ripped it.

Forcing Apple to open FairPlay, is pandering to all those companies that have flagging sales, and to all the people that are too lazy to do enough research on the products they are buying, or rip CDs themselves.

Ultimately, Apple's current position is not a monopoly, as we do have a choice. We are not forced to use iTMS, just because we have an iPod. We are not even forced to buy an iPod.

It will be amusing to see what happens when people who have bought the Zune want to move their music, and can't. Oh, that's right. M$ have already done that, and got away with it. Where was the uproar then?

On Zunerumors.com?

I don't think an open Fairplay will hurt Apple, I think it'll actually benefit them, and the music industry as a whole. iTunes and the iPod are best-of-class products, I think they'll both do fine on their own.

The reason for the uproar from consumers is because Apple and Microsoft are taking something - music - which has always been open (from sheet music to vinyl records, to tape, to CDs) and restricting our usage of it. Is it any wonder people are upset?

I really can't understand people who argue against this. "Less choice is good"?

 

[Kullenius]

I think most of you who defend iTunes have missed the essence of the complaints. You state that if a consumer don't like DRM, they can go somewhere else - true. But you fail to see that most consumers don't have the slightest ideas about DRM. They think that buying music from iTunes will work just like any other music they buy, and in all fairness, why should they thing differently? THIS is the reason why some countries have put pressure on iTunes. The ombudsman in the Scandinavian countries actually just represents angry consumers, and not the governments.

And another point. The analogies for defence of iTunes in this tread has to be the worst I have ever seen. Quite a laught though.

 

[Stella]

What are you really saying is:
"Until I have the same point of view to yours, I won't 'get it'."

Get real.

1. If I buy any music (phillips standard ) CD I can play it on any CD player.
2. I buy a (phillips standard ) CD but can only play it on 'Manufacture A' CD player.

If (2) were to occur there would be consumer outrage, just like there was deep unhappiness about DVD region-ing.

well...ok...le sigh right back at ya...

First, you have consumer freedom now. You are not "locked in" to iTunes or any other music service. Go. Shop around. It's your freedom...which you already have. Did I mention you already are free?
<snip>

Apple have a real chance to make Fairplay to be a standard. But the boat will be leaving behind Apple as microsoft take that prize. Why won't Fairplay become a defaco-standard? Because of Apple's refusal to license out. iPod will not last for ever, and even now, there are other great devices on the market now that have a great chance of taking market share.


I would love to be able to play back microsoft DRM media ( video and audio ) on my Mac, but unfortunately I can't. Unlike Apple who had to really port iTunes to Windows - 95% of consumer market there - microsoft have little incentive - to support such a small percentage of users ( <5% ) - not much business sense to invest in such a small market. microsoft are beginning to cripple Word for Mac - i.e., no VBScript in Office 2007.

 

[IscariotJ]

On Zunerumors.com?

I don't think an open Fairplay will hurt Apple, I think it'll actually benefit them, and the music industry as a whole. iTunes and the iPod are best-of-class products, I think they'll both do fine on their own.

The reason for the uproar from consumers is because Apple and Microsoft are taking something - music - which has always been open (from sheet music to vinyl records, to tape, to CDs) and restricting our usage of it. Is it any wonder people are upset?

I really can't understand people who argue against this. "Less choice is good"?

Zunerumors.com I like that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against FairPlay being open. I just don't think it will happen this way.

What is beginning to grate, though, are the number of people claiming that they are being restricted to buying an iPod. Why? No-one buys an iPod just for iTMS, nor does it require one. The choice is still there.

Want your music portable and unencumbered by DRM? Buy a CD, and rip it yourself.

 

[IscariotJ]

I think most of you who defend iTunes have missed the essence of the complaints. You state that if a consumer don't like DRM, they can go somewhere else - true. But you fail to see that most consumers don't have the slightest ideas about DRM. They think that buying music from iTunes will work just like any other music they buy, and in all fairness, why should they thing differently? THIS is the reason why some countries have put pressure on iTunes. The ombudsman in the Scandinavian countries actually just represents angry consumers, and not the governments.

And another point. The analogies for defence of iTunes in this tread has to be the worst I have ever seen. Quite a laught though.

The problem lies then, not with DRM but with un-informed buyers.

 

[eenu]

The problem is, what if you used iTunes and an iPod, and spent $1000 on music in the iTunes Store. Two years later, your iPod breaks and you want to buy an mp3-player from LG. Only you can't because it won't play your $1000 worth of music, so you're forced to buy another iPod.

THAT'S the main problem here.


Edit: lets rephrase the question.

What if you're using Windows and a Zune. You buy $1000 worth of music on Microsofts music store. Then a year later you want to switch to Mac and kill your Windows PC crap. But you know you can't, because you'd have to spend $1000 on the same music all again. And that would make your iBook cost $2099! So you're forced to buy a new crappy Dell instead, with the extremely bad OS Windows Vista! Can you honestly say that this is how it should be??

Sorry but you clearly have not understood what is being said!

Firstly when you purchased your iTMS content you know that you will not EVER be able to use it on another player. THEREFORE its your own problem two years down the line when you no longer want an ipod as you knew from day one what the situation was.

And your switching from windows to mac sounds a bit dodgy to me as you can just move the files to your mac and use your zune with your mac whether its natively or through bootcamp (windows) or parallels (windows) so that analogy is blown right out the water as being wrong.

 

[Stella]

So... you won't mind, when the iPod killer comes out and you buy it, repurchasing all your digital music again?

( alternatively you can spend a lot of time burning -> ripping your existing iTunes music and enjoying sub standard quality )

Sorry but you clearly have not understood what is being said!

Firstly when you purchased your iTMS content you know that you will not EVER be able to use it on another player. THEREFORE its your own problem two years down the line when you no longer want an ipod as you knew from day one what the situation was.

And your switching from windows to mac sounds a bit dodgy to me as you can just move the files to your mac and use your zune with your mac whether its natively or through bootcamp (windows) or parallels (windows) so that analogy is blown right out the water as being wrong.

 

[aLoC]

I don't know why individual Norwegians can't decide for themselves whether they want to buy music that will only play on their iPod.

 

[IscariotJ]

So... you won't mind, when the iPod killer comes out and you buy it, repurchasing all your digital music again?

( alternatively you can spend a lot of time burning -> ripping your existing iTunes music and enjoying sub standard quality )

I don't think anyone is denying that having iTMS purchases tied to iPods is a PITA. However, if you were the sort of person to run out and buy any iPod killer, I think it unlikely you'd have much in the way of purchases from the iTMS ( or cash, after buying the Zune, the Dell thing, the Creative... .

 

[crassusad44]

Sorry but you clearly have not understood what is being said!

Firstly when you purchased your iTMS content you know that you will not EVER be able to use it on another player. THEREFORE its your own problem two years down the line when you no longer want an ipod as you knew from day one what the situation was.

And your switching from windows to mac sounds a bit dodgy to me as you can just move the files to your mac and use your zune with your mac whether its natively or through bootcamp (windows) or parallels (windows) so that analogy is blown right out the water as being wrong.

And you clearly don't get it either. What this case is about, is that several European countries believe that digital music customers, like you and me, SHOULD be able to switch between player, without needing to re-buy their music catalouge. They believe it is unfair for customers that the company that produces the most popular mp3-player in the market to tie that player with music bought in one digital store and vice versa. They don't argue that you have a choice to not buy music from iTS, but that iTS (and logically all other digital music stores as well) should be more open to other players, so that customers that want to buy from iTS (because it is convenient, has a large music catalouge, is easy to use or for whatever reason) have more choice in buying music players. Would you buy CDs with DRM that excluded you from playing that CD on other portable CD-players than Sony discman? Would you, really? Now what if Sony discman was the most popular portable musicplayer around, even though it cannot use CDs from other vendors (such as MS DRM CDs), and you got one from your girlfriend for Christmas. Would you still think it is fair that you only can use Sony CDs and not other DRM CDs? Wouldn't you like to use all your CDs on any player (it need not to be without DRM only that the DRM is open to other vendors)? This is what the case is really about.

And BTW: Isn't it a bit unpratical to be forced to install Windows on your Mac just to play the songs that you bought with your old Windows PC? Your arguement is mute and ad hoc.

 

[eenu]

So... you won't mind, when the iPod killer comes out and you buy it, repurchasing all your digital music again?

( alternatively you can spend a lot of time burning -> ripping your existing iTunes music and enjoying sub standard quality )

I'm find it very hard to understand why you can't grasp anything anyone says!

I DECIDED TO BUY THE IPOD KNOWING THE LIMITATIONS! Therefore i won't be purchasing the ipod killer....and yes if i am that desperate to leave iTMS and iPod i will go the CD route.

Whilst i (believe it or not) am very much for open source and open formats and strive to do so in all my files i whole heartedly disagree with the EU this time and don't think apple should be forced to open this up! Next they will be forced to sell OSX to PC users because they have locked that to their hardware too! Its absurd!

 

[eenu]

And you clearly don't get it either. What this case is about, is that several European countries believe that digital music customers, like you and me, SHOULD be able to switch between player, without needing to re-buy their music catalouge. They believe it is unfair for customers that the company that produces the most popular mp3-player in the market to tie that player with music bought in one digital store and vice versa. They don't argue that you have a choice to not buy music from iTS, but that iTS (and logically all other digital music stores as well) should be more open to other players, so that customers that want to buy from iTS (because it is convenient, has a large music catalouge, is easy to use or for whatever reason) have more choice in buying music players. Would you buy CDs with DRM that excluded you from playing that CD on other portable CD-players than Sony discman? Would you, really? Now what if Sony discman was the most popular portable musicplayer around, even though it cannot use CDs from other vendors (such as MS DRM CDs), and you got one from your girlfriend for Christmas. Would you still think it is fair that you only can use Sony CDs and not other DRM CDs? Wouldn't you like to use all your CDs on any player (it need not to be without DRM only that the DRM is open to other vendors)? This is what the case is really about.

And BTW: Isn't it a bit unpratical to be forced to install Windows on your Mac just to play the songs that you bought with your old Windows PC? Your arguement is mute and ad hoc.

I know what the case is about, don't speak down to me like some kind of idiot!

And no its not impractical as when you bought those songs on the PC you knew they were locked to windows! It was your choice when buying.

What this whole argument is about is people are now crying that they can't abide by a decision they made when purchasing their music whether it from Apple, MS or others. If you can't live by the sword and die by it then you shouldn't own a credit or debit card and shouldn't be buying digital music. Sorry but i can't excuse stupidity.

 

[Kullenius]

The problem lies then, not with DRM but with un-informed buyers.

One way of seeing it. Or, you could say that un-informed consumers isn't a problem had there not been DRM. And do you actually have to set yourself into anything before buying? Would you expect the bread to be different from how it's always have been? Music had never been a problem before. Most persons buys it just like they always have and not reading through every small letter sentence to see if anything changed, and then read up on what the heck that meant, is in your words "un-informed". Had Apple clearly stated on purchase something like "Warning! This music is not going to be playable on anything except on your iPod and up to three computer (or how many it now is), don't forget to learn how to register and un-register your computers, or your purchased music may not be playable anylonger" I would be ok with it - but how many would buy? As it is today, Apple - and for that matter anyone else who deals in DRM damaged goods - try to lure the consumers into that it is business as usual. Ombudsmannen have been informed because it has slowly started to be an outcry from ordinary people noticing that they might/have been locked out from there legally purchased music, and that they suddenly can't listen to it how they want to.

Just imagine that the newspaper tomorrow only could be read on your red chair, and only when you hadn't had a shower - oh, did your forget to read that rules changed since last time you ordered newspaper? How un-informed of you...

 

[eenu]

All your arguments are mute as our Scandinavian friend puts it. Hell i am going to write to the EU parliament today and complain that i bought Office 2003 for my PC then when i switched to Mac i had to buy office for mac! Its a disgrace i can't believe these monopolies can get away with it!

All the thousands of £'s worth of software i had to repurchase because i switched. Whilst you will moan its not the same as its more than just a block put on the same type of media......i disagree! I knew that when i purchased it on PC that it would become obsolete when windows progressed and i also knew it tied me to windows and that if i wanted to switch i would have to buy it all again!

I knew the same when i bought my stuff from iTMS and my iPOD.

 

[eenu]

I notice how most of the moaners here are Scandinavian! Maybe steve should just withdraw from there and have done!

 

[Kullenius]

[...]
I DECIDED TO BUY THE IPOD KNOWING THE LIMITATIONS!
[...]

You might have known, but the ordinary consumer don't. That's the essence.

 

[eenu]

You might have known, but the ordinary consumer don't. That's the essence.

As i said above 'I can't excuse stupidity'. There is plenty of information out there to know what the limitations are! If people don't want to read that to know what they are purchasing then its their own problem.

Do you just buy things without knowing anything about it? if you do more fool you...

 

[Kullenius]

All your arguments are mute as our Scandinavian friend puts it. Hell i am going to write to the EU parliament today and complain that i bought Office 2003 for my PC then when i switched to Mac i had to buy office for mac! Its a disgrace i can't believe these monopolies can get away with it!
[...]

It's sad that you can't seem to see the difference between physical hindrance and artificial ones. Your analogies would improve drastically if you did.

 

[crassusad44]

I know what the case is about, don't speak down to me like some kind of idiot!

It doesn't always sound like it from your reasoning

And no its not impractical as when you bought those songs on the PC you knew they were locked to windows! It was your choice when buying.

Yes it is unpractical... People do change their minds you know...

What this whole argument is about is people are now crying that they can't abide by a decision they made when purchasing their music whether it from Apple, MS or others. If you can't live by the sword and die by it then you shouldn't own a credit or debit card and shouldn't be buying digital music. Sorry but i can't excuse stupidity.

Again, no. This whole case is about whether or not people should need to make such a decision in the first place. If you read the statements by the Norwegian Ombudsman, or actually forbrukerombud, they have criticized Apple not because of the poor poor people that are so sad that they cannot live by their choices, but because Apple ties you to only one software/player solution, and that Apple should provide a licence/open up its DRM to other vendors.

 

[Poff]

Sorry but you clearly have not understood what is being said!

Firstly when you purchased your iTMS content you know that you will not EVER be able to use it on another player. THEREFORE its your own problem two years down the line when you no longer want an ipod as you knew from day one what the situation was.

And your switching from windows to mac sounds a bit dodgy to me as you can just move the files to your mac and use your zune with your mac whether its natively not - zune store DRMed files won't work natively on Mac. or through bootcamp (windows) or parallels (windows) so that analogy is blown right out the water as being wrong.

Hmm.. maybe that's how consumer laws work in the US (to the manufacturers favour), but that's not how they work in Europe. (to the customers favour)

I'll give you credit on using bootcamp or parallels to run windows. BUT you'd probably have to buy a new license for Windows as the one you had was probably OEM. (Only legal to use on the computer it came with. Ever.)

But what if you finally realized your Zune was a piece of crap, and you wanted to buy an iPod or iPhone? You'd still have to keep using your Zune as a music player or buy the $1000 worth of songs again.

 

[Poff]

I know what the case is about, don't speak down to me like some kind of idiot!

You get what you give..

 

[Poff]

And no its not impractical as when you bought those songs on the PC you knew they were locked to windows! It was your choice when buying.

Can you guarantee that you will stand by everything you've ever said when you're 60 years old? Because that's practically what you want the others in here to do.

 

[IscariotJ]

You might have known, but the ordinary consumer don't. That's the essence.

And that's Apple's fault ( and the fault of all the others running stores that are tied to their product )? At some point, consumers have to accept responsibility for their purchases.