European Countries Up Pressure On iTunes, FairPlay

[Rustus Maximus]

You might have known, but the ordinary consumer don't. That's the essence.

Well, this more than explains your apparent backwards economic and social philosophies to a T. The lack of personal accountability. I am pretty sure that's why they have you click the accept button on those EULA's.

It's sad that you can't seem to see the difference between physical hindrance and artificial ones. Your analogies would improve drastically if you did.

No, no. His analogy is legitimate and correct. The Office dilemna would also be a software hinderance primarily which is why they can rewrite office for the Mac and then charge poor eenu for a new copy.

Poor, poor eenu. If only he weren't "locked in" by those nasty corporations.

 

[Stella]

I'm still baffled, given the two below scenarios, people would actually prefer the 1st option:

1. iPod - iTunes lock in.
2. No iTunes - iPod lock in. You can play iTMS music with any player you like - even the iPod killer than comes out 'tomorrow', or your perhaps, music orientated cell phone - that you like to use to play your music on occassionally.

* when i mean play - no time consuming, highly inconviencing burn -> rip.

 

[rubberduck007]

And why is that? Sorry, I don't buy the "just buy an iPod" answer either. It's DATA on my COMPUTER and MY MUSIC PLAYER. I should be able to play it where I want to.

Also, answer this: why is it I can play SOME of my music anywhere, but not ALL of it? How is this a good user experience? Isn't a "great user experience" supposed to be the hallmark of Apple?

Hold on - if i buy a "diesel" car I can only put diesel in it - your analogy says that i should be able to put any fuel in it cos you own the car so you should be able to put "unleaded" in it... don't work like that - you buy music from iTunes - only works on an iPod - simple - want to use it on another device buy the CD and use it as you need!

 

[IscariotJ]

I'm still baffled, given the two below scenarios, people would actually prefer the 1st option:

1. iPod - iTunes lock in.
2. No iTunes - iPod lock in. You can play iTMS music with any player you like - even the iPod killer than comes out 'tomorrow', or your perhaps, music orientated cell phone - that you like to use to play your music on occassionally.

* when i mean play - no time consuming, highly inconviencing burn -> rip.

It's not that people are saying that they prefer option 1, just that the arguments used by people wanting option 2 are not substantial enough.

 

[Stella]

It's not that people are saying that they prefer option 1, just that the arguments used by people wanting option 2 are not substantial enough.

If you go back and read the posts, you'll actually find that they prefer to be locked in.

No argument will ever be enough - that is, until, Apple do license out Fairplay and then these same people will sing a chorus of Apple praise saying its the right thing, and how Apple are so good that they let iTMS be used with non Apple devices - how consumer friendly.

 

[cortolemos]

French competition council decision

In France they decided that Apple's DRM was legal and offered no restrictions to the consumer whatsoever because:
1) the digital musica market it's a small part of the music market as a all
2) there are convenient work-arounds to strip the music bought in iTS of the DRM
3) there are other mp3 players that offer support of Microsoft's WMA DRM as an alternative to the consumer

http://www.conseil-concurrence.fr/pdf/avis/04d54.pdf (sorry but this is in French)

 

[Kullenius]

Well, this more than explains your apparent backwards economic and social philosophies to a T. The lack of personal accountability. I am pretty sure that's why they have you click the accept button on those EULA's.

Hmm, Sweden has a kick as economy, how is it with the US now again?... Scandinavia don't really have begging and people sleeping on the streets, how was it with US now again? Scandinavian countries are always on top on any charts for standard and best living, clearly that is proof of backward economy and social philosophies to a T.

By the way, do you know that laws differs in different countries? That's why it doesn't matter much what EULA states if it's not according to the law of the country you going to use it in. Norway for example have stated that iTunes EULA isn't legal, so why would a Norwegian be interested in reading that EULA?

No, no. His analogy is legitimate and correct. The Office dilemna would also be a software hinderance primarily which is why they can rewrite office for the Mac and then charge poor eenu for a new copy.

Poor, poor eenu. If only he weren't "locked in" by those nasty corporations.

No, it's not valid. If you play a music file it works on any device as long as you don't hinder it with DRM. A windows file only works on that os, and since the api's changes from time to time, it might not even work on older ones. To make it work with other companies os and there api's requires a lot of extra work - spelled money. Extra work to lessen the value, or extra work to make it even possible.

 

[cortolemos]

iTS it's not, and it never was an universal music store. It's a store that enables iPod owners with an easy way (and legal) to buy and download music in order to listen to it in their iPods. Now in the futur, if the evolution of market, and if the music industry companies let that happen, the iTS will off course offer unDRM'ed music or else disappear...

To those of you that think that the Music Companies will strike on Apple and start selling unDRM'ed mp3, I just have one question: What prevents them from doing that just right now? They own the music, they can sell it to whoever they want and in the format they want...

 

[Rauha]

This whole thing is obviously a cleaver plot to find the dumbest and most absurd car analogy ever invented.

 

[BuzWeaver]

It's not as cut and dry as that. Businesses should have rights too or else I would be lobying for free products from every business out there because that's what I want. Are you saying that if you got enough citizens to lobby for that the government should step in and make it so?

P-Worm

You're dealing with a socialist mentality (yes, I'm generalizing). When the US exerts its will its tyrannical, oppressive and imperialistic, when the EU exerts its will its to level the playing field and make things 'fair'(we don't like being inconvenienced), but that's a whole other subject. You are correct people often times fail to realize that business and private entities have rights too.

The Music industry is simply looking after their business, which music now is a commodity and Apple is looking after its interest. Will Apple yield, this will depend on save face measures that will also open avenues to revenue. I wouldn't have a problem if Apple puts its foot down just to spite the EU, as the EU practically goes out of its way to spite or thwart the US.

 

[Stella]

iTS it's not, and it never was an universal music store. It's a store that enables iPod owners with an easy way (and legal) to buy and download music in order to listen to it in their iPods. Now in the futur, if the evolution of market, and if the music industry companies let that happen, the iTS will off course offer unDRM'ed music or else disappear...

To those of you that think that the Music Copmpanies will strike on Apple and start selling unDRM'ed mp3, I just have one question: What prevents them from doing that just right now? They own the music, they can sell it to whoever they want and in the format they want...

They are letting some smaller stores sell DRM free music, already!

Your first point is exactly what those Euro countries do not like:
iPods and iTMS have become so popular, they see it now that Apple are abusing their position by locking in consumers to the iTunes - iPod by using Fairplay.

These countries want iTMS to be interoperable with other digital devices. They want flexibility for the consumer. Your point of how iTMS started out is a good point, and true, but due to its popular position, they want iTMS to go beyond this. From reading the article, from what I read, because of its popularity, iTMS should be able to support non Apple devices ( not necessarily by stripping the DRM!)

 

[Kullenius]

This whole thing is obviously a cleaver plot to find the dumbest and most absurd car analogy ever invented.

If I have a red car with blue seats, a red haired person would only be able to sit in the left front seat. Had it been a yellow sport car, only blond persons would be able to sit on the roof. Hence oranges are green!

 

[Rauha]

If I have a red car with blue seats, a red haired person would only be able to sit in the left front seat. Had it been a yellow sport car, only blond persons would be able to sit on the roof. Hence oranges are green!

I should have known that it would be a swede who comes up with the dumbest one.

 

[Rustus Maximus]

What are you really saying is:
"Until I have the same point of view to yours, I won't 'get it'."

Get real.

1. If I buy any music (phillips standard ) CD I can play it on any CD player.
2. I buy a (phillips standard ) CD but can only play it on 'Manufacture A' CD player.

If (2) were to occur there would be consumer outrage, just like there was deep unhappiness about DVD region-ing.

Which is the same thing you are saying about my point of view, that's the nature of debating. So, no, until you agree with my correct point of view...no...you won't get it .

Second, we aren't talking about CD's or DVD's. We're talking about iTunes, iPods and Apple's digital music files. It's Apple's product and they can do what they please. Had the CD manufacturers' wanted to do the same thing they could have.

Apple have a real chance to make Fairplay to be a standard. But the boat will be leaving behind Apple as microsoft take that prize. Why won't Fairplay become a defaco-standard? Because of Apple's refusal to license out. iPod will not last for ever, and even now, there are other great devices on the market now that have a great chance of taking market share.

It already is the standard. They have an 80% ± market share and what is that about Microsoft? Are you referring to the Zune? Um...good one? The Zune is the joke it is precisely because of Apple's Fairplay. It's called a smart business model. Don't like being locked into iPods with your iTunes purchased music? then don't use it. The iPod still plays other formats (not the wonderfully open WMA though). Plus, if there are all these other wonderful new devices on the market already, these "iPod killers" then, what's your beef?

I would love to be able to play back microsoft DRM media ( video and audio ) on my Mac, but unfortunately I can't. Unlike Apple who had to really port iTunes to Windows - 95% of consumer market there - microsoft have little incentive - to support such a small percentage of users ( <5% ) - not much business sense to invest in such a small market. microsoft are beginning to cripple Word for Mac - i.e., no VBScript in Office 2007.

So, let me see if i understand your point. Microsoft is excused from not supporting iPods with the subpar WMA format because of the lame market share excuse. Yet, you place Apple in the 'Evil Despot' category for doing the same thing with the purchased music from their music service?

And...<cry> about the Word tidbit. As you yourself said, Open Office is a viable alternative. Mac users can just switch to that and Microsoft will end up supporting them anyway due to "consumer pressure" I believe you said.

 

[eenu]

Can you guarantee that you will stand by everything you've ever said when you're 60 years old? Because that's practically what you want the others in here to do.

Yes i can.

And to be honest to you two Scandinavians....why do you use a mac? Apple has locked you to their hardware. They are doing exactly the same to you with OSX and your Mac hardware as they are doing to you with protected ACCs and iPods!

If you practice what you preach i'd suggest you take them to court or sell your mac and get generic components and run linux

 

[Kullenius]

Yes i can.

And to be honest to you two Scandinavians....why do you use aa mac? Apple has locked you to their hardware. They are doing exactly the same to you with OSX and your Mac hardware as they are doing to you with protected ACCs and iPods!

Eh, no they haven't. I can run OS X, I can run any Windows or Linux on it. Have you missed out the event that Apple switched to Intel? Would I have bought a Mac before? Nope, but now I had the choice. Smart of Apple.

 

[Stella]

Which is the same thing you are saying about my point of view, that's the nature of debating.

I'm not saying that you don't get it - you are quite free to have your own opinion. You do 'get it' even if its a view than mine - and ofc, I respect that. Debating is fun!

So, no, until you agree with my correct point of view...no...you won't get it .

LOL. ;-)

Second, we aren't talking about CD's or DVD's. We're talking about iTunes, iPods and Apple's digital music files. It's Apple's product and they can do what they please. Had the CD manufacturers' wanted to do the same thing they could have.

I don't see any different between CDs and digital music. Digital Music it just a a different music format to CDs that shouldn't be locked in to any devices.

It already is the standard. They have an 80% ± market share and what is that about Microsoft? Are you referring to the Zune? Um...good one? The Zune is the joke it is precisely because of Apple's Fairplay. It's called a smart business model. Don't like being locked into iPods with your iTunes purchased music? then don't use it. The iPod still plays other formats (not the wonderfully open WMA though). Plus, if there are all these other wonderful new devices on the market already, these "iPod killers" then, what's your beef?

I'm referring to microsoft audio and video formats - with or without DRM. I'd love to play microsoft-format content on my Mac - but unfortunately there isn't the Mac marketshare for microsoft to bother porting the DRM or support the latest version of its digital formats on Mac - so it remains unplayable.

No, your not understanding my point, it was a tad off topic, so I won't further it .

quote:
So, let me see if i understand your point. [/QUOTE]

 

[rubberduck007]

Yes i can.

And to be honest to you two Scandinavians....why do you use a mac? Apple has locked you to their hardware. They are doing exactly the same to you with OSX and your Mac hardware as they are doing to you with protected ACCs and iPods!

If you practice what you preach i'd suggest you take them to court or sell your mac and get generic components and run linux

hear, hear!!!! end of thread me thinks!

 

[Call42350]

Norway for example have stated that iTunes EULA isn't legal, so why would a Norwegian be interested in reading that EULA?

Is that the consumers of Norway or the lawmakers of Norway? Can you post a link to the these official findings? I honestly want to read it. I understand there are PARTS of the EULA that the Scandanavian countries disagree with, but EULAs are still honored (if legal), right?

I doubt that Apple+RIAA would ever allow a single song to be sold in the Land of Lutefisk without covering themselves legally.

 

[Rustus Maximus]

So, no, until you agree with my correct point of view...no...you won't get it .

LOL. ;-)

I thought you'd like that

 

[eenu]

Eh, no they haven't. I can run OS X, I can run any Windows or Linux on it. Have you missed out the event that Apple switched to Intel? Would I have bought a Mac before? Nope, but now I had the choice. Smart of Apple.

You still have to pay for your windows license which you were arguing a few posts up was unacceptable for those with music on a windows platform if they wanted to move to mac! Your going round in circles. I hope apple tell the Scandinavians to stick the iTMS where the sun isn't shining and i am appalled the UK has its name on the list of countries complaining!

I have no issue with open music and play it on what you want. I do have an issue with ANY COURT IN ANY COUNTRY telling a company like Apple or MS that they need to allow other music players to play music bought in their stores. As i and countless others have said, you knew the rules and limitations you bought and entered into the purchase under those conditions!

Maybe i should ring up MS and tell them i changed my mind about using Office 2003 cos i wanted to move to a mac and that i think they are legally obliged to provide me with the mac version now! I can't cos they aint and nor should they be!

 

[crassusad44]

Yes i can.

And to be honest to you two Scandinavians....why do you use a mac? Apple has locked you to their hardware. They are doing exactly the same to you with OSX and your Mac hardware as they are doing to you with protected ACCs and iPods!

If you practice what you preach i'd suggest you take them to court or sell your mac and get generic components and run linux

Now that is a bold statement... Please check back when your 60, and lets hear what you have to say then...

Your logic is really, really streched to its limits with your last argument. Selling a machine with propertary hardware and OS X is not the same as music files. If I wanted to, I could switch to a Windows PC and take with me all my files, pictures, movies and tunes. I would have no problem using these files on my Windows PC. I stay on OS X, however, because I find myself being more productive on a Mac, and I like the OS a lot more than Windows. Now (sorry for introducing a new analogy) you don't expect to be able to use all your parts for your Nissan when you buy a BMW. But you do expect your CDs that played nice on your Nissan to also work on the CD-player that comes with your BMW. Again, your argument is at best ad hoc...

 

[eenu]

Now that is a bold statement... Please check back when your 60, and lets hear what you have to say then...

Your logic is really, really streched to its limits with your last argument. Selling a machine with propertary hardware and OS X is not the same as music files. If I wanted to, I could switch to a Windows PC and take with me all my files, pictures, movies and tunes. I would have no problem using these files on my Windows PC.

INCORRECT! I couldn't take my software! Some of your files may not work as they were made in mac specific software, pictures are free you took them yourself (therefore no expense involved and you own the copyright ) and i'm interested to know how you have movies on your machine (if you refer to commercial ones) without them at this point in time being locked to a specific platform unless of course they are DVD rips which is illegal. Mind you it appears that in Scandinavia you don't care about the legalities of things and are that liberal to think that DVD ripping would be fine and within your rights. Hell i can't wait to see you lot moan that the Blu-ray or HD-DVD disks you bought can't play on the rivals players! And god forbid you buy the losing format!

If anyones argument is flawed its yours! I have to use both platforms so i know the ins and outs of a conversion and there would certainly be a large amount of cost and inconvenience caused if i wanted to move back to a PC. Not that i care because i knew that when i moved to Mac....I MADE AN INFORMED DECISION! and if i change my mind....its my own tough ****

 

[crassusad44]

You still have to pay for your windows license which you were arguing a few posts up was unacceptable for those with music on a windows platform if they wanted to move to mac! Your going round in circles. I hope apple tell the Scandinavians to stick the iTMS where the sun isn't shining and i am appalled the UK has its name on the list of countries complaining!

You are paying for a Windows licence when you buy a Dell as well. The price of the licence is included in the price you pay Dell. If you want to run Windows on a Mac, you can, but the price of Windows is not (and why should it) included in the price of the machine.

I have no issue with open music and play it on what you want. I do have an issue with ANY COURT IN ANY COUNTRY telling a company like Apple or MS that they need to allow other music players to play music bought in their stores. As i and countless others have said, you knew the rules and limitations you bought and entered into the purchase under those conditions!

Courts and governments have been telling companies what to do and not to do for ages. And again, Forbrukerombudet in Norway has started this whole thing because they believe that it should be possible to use media files bought digitaly on more than one device, just as CDs and DVDs can be used on more than one type of CD/DVD-player. They did not start this case to stand up for people who do not read EULAs and then gets shocked that their tunes will not play on an iRiver.

Maybe i should ring up MS and tell them i changed my mind about using Office 2003 cos i wanted to move to a mac and that i think they are legally obliged to provide me with the mac version now! I can't cos they aint and nor should they be!

Software is NOT, repeat after me, NOT, the same as media files with DRM. A Word created by Eminem with DRM would. Apple does not hold the copyright to the media files, and should not limit you to where you can and cannot use them.

 

[dejo]

Apple does not hold the copyright to the media files...

Ah, but neither do you...