EV cars blowing past gas cars in lower cost-per-mile and maintenance.

[SuperMatt]

in twenty years or less not only would this be deemed incredibly unethical, you'd probably get major fees for being so wasteful.

The truth is that we need a massive light rail system in this country yesterday, and that single car ownership is still borderline unethical as it currently stands. EV's are just a band aid on the bigger problem which is that most people shouldn't own vehicles because of climate change. Personally, I'm about to upgrade my vehicle to a Prius, and in ten years I'll get a EV, but most of my time I'll be biking.

if you actually care about this planet, you'll have to do the same.

You should buy an EV now. Having owned one for 4 years, I can tell you that the range anxieties disappear when you actually start using it for a couple months. You can't build a rail system yourself, but you can switch to an EV. Figure out one with a range that gets you to and from work in your typical week. When it comes to a road trip, if the range would be an issue on that specific trip, just rent a gasoline-powered car for that trip. My car has ~100-mile range, less than half of what many EVs have now, and it hasn't been an issue at all. Gas - $0, Maintenance - $10 for windshield washer fluid. This thing has saved me tons of money and it's good for the environment.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Toyota isn’t selling an EV because they thought hydrogen was the future.

Arguably I’m not sure their hydrogen project was more than an experiment. They bet big on hybrids and succeeded in that regard until now. It was a reasonable move at the time considering the battery technology. Hydrogen has long been known as a rather impractical solution. Building a hydrogen powered car is more of a technical achievement.

With the exception of Tesla obviously, all the brands have been hesitant to get into electric on a large scale. Toyota has been slow to adopt even turbochargers, I presume because reliability and longevity is one of their top concerns. I doubt they’ll sell BEV cars until they can really perfect the technology and create a product that meets their standards. And I doubt they’ll put out many BEV models until there is more than a tepid interest.

 

[pshufd]

Arguably I’m not sure their hydrogen project was more than an experiment. They bet big on hybrids and succeeded in that regard until now. It was a reasonable move at the time considering the battery technology. Hydrogen has long been known as a rather impractical solution. Building a hydrogen powered car is more of a technical achievement.

With the exception of Tesla obviously, all the brands have been hesitant to get into electric on a large scale. Toyota has been slow to adopt even turbochargers, I presume because reliability and longevity is one of their top concerns. I doubt they’ll sell BEV cars until they can really perfect the technology and create a product that meets their standards. And I doubt they’ll put out many BEV models until there is more than a tepid interest.

Tesla has a huge platform advantage with their Superchargers that can charge at rates of up to 75 miles/5 minutes. Other carmakers would have to do a big spend on infrastructure to match that. I've seen calls to make Tesla's supercharging stations available to all EVs but I don't think that's practical with all of the plug types out there and I don't know that other carmakers' systems have the hardware and software to charge at those rates.

Tesla had the advantage of being able to throw huge amounts of money at EVs with Wall St not caring about profits for a long time. Conventional companies don't have that luxury. Toyota is know for getting it right on quality and that includes the support and maintenance infrastructure - if they don't think that it's ready yet, then I certainly trust them on that. If I were to get an EV now, it would be a third vehicle - something that we certainly don't need or want.

 

[4sallypat]

I've driven Toyotas for the past two decades and it's easy to get spoiled by Toyota quality. I would buy an EV from Toyota that sells a lot of units per year. That they don't have one tells me something about what people want and what technology can deliver. My last fillup on my Camry had MPG of 48.5. I drove 600+ miles on about 12 gallons of gasoline. So absolute range is probably close to 800 miles. Gasoline is about $1.70 at my local station.

At the moment, the most convenient is the Hybrids and they get better and better.

On Tesla tech - I would hope that Toyota will license some of it from Tesla. Tesla is state-of-the-art but they also have those SOTA bugs.

That's funny - I was looking at the Toyota PHEV RAV4 that was coming out this year as a 2021 to be a second PHEV in the family since my BMW was getting aged....

Price tag of the RAV4 PHEV before the federal tax credit, state & local rebates still puts it way out in cost compared to my Honda Clarity PHEV.

The Clarity was a steal at net cost of $14,700 after: $3000 dealer discount, $7500 federal, $1500 state, $1000 local, $500 CA govt employee discount, and a HOV exemption sticker to boot!


I don't think the Toyota RAV4 PHEV will be even close as the state reduced it's rebate.....

 

[pshufd]

That's funny - I was looking at the Toyota PHEV RAV4 that was coming out this year as a 2021 to be a second PHEV in the family since my BMW was getting aged....

Price tag of the RAV4 PHEV before the federal tax credit, state & local rebates still puts it way out in cost compared to my Honda Clarity PHEV.

The Clarity was a steal at net cost of $14,700 after: $3000 dealer discount, $7500 federal, $1500 state, $1000 local, $500 CA govt employee discount, and a HOV exemption sticker to boot!

I don't think the Toyota RAV4 PHEV will be even close as the state reduced it's rebate.....

I think that Toyota is using Hybrid as a feature and a selling point to increase margins. I have looked at the RAV4 but it's hard for me as I'm used to really great mileage and not just pretty good.

 

[4sallypat]

The Toyota PHEV RAV4 Prime is brand new and about to come out later this year I am looking forward to seeing it.

It's not the standard hybrid RAV4 - this PHEV Prime RAV4 qualifies for federal, state and local rebates as well as the coveted carpool exemption sticker in CA.

https://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/rav4prime/

It does not have the same EV range as my Clarity but then the electronic AWD is very attractive as I fish for winter steelhead and fall salmon and need a higher clearance crossover....

 

[SuperMatt]

Toyota doesn't sell EVs because it wouldn't be that profitable for them. EVs are not very popular in the US. Gas is cheap, and the Trump administration hasn't done anything to extend the EV tax credits or to pressure manufacturers to create EVs. I think it's too bad. Maintaining an EV is easier than a gas-powered car, and it just so happens to be better for the environment.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Tesla has a huge platform advantage with their Superchargers that can charge at rates of up to 75 miles/5 minutes. Other carmakers would have to do a big spend on infrastructure to match that. I've seen calls to make Tesla's supercharging stations available to all EVs but I don't think that's practical with all of the plug types out there and I don't know that other carmakers' systems have the hardware and software to charge at those rates.

Tesla had the advantage of being able to throw huge amounts of money at EVs with Wall St not caring about profits for a long time. Conventional companies don't have that luxury. Toyota is know for getting it right on quality and that includes the support and maintenance infrastructure - if they don't think that it's ready yet, then I certainly trust them on that. If I were to get an EV now, it would be a third vehicle - something that we certainly don't need or want.

Tesla does have an advantage of SuperChargers and access to batteries. Not just Wall Street, but the US government. I commend them for developing a mainstream purpose built luxury market car and marking EV's desirable. I think the failure of previous attempts are largely because the cars were relatively expensive and designed to be like economy cars- small and not well appointed.

Most of the other automakers have banded together to form a unified charging standard, which will continue to grow as more EV's become more prevalent. The idea that every car in the future will be an EV made by Tesla is not going to be the case. I don't think a single company could ever scale to the size of being the sole auto manufacturer (not that anti-trust laws would ever allow that to happen either). Eventually, I imagine everyone will be on the same standard. Governments could always force a law that all EV chargers must be compatible with all brands... which would really throw Tesla's current business model. It's not something I would be surprised to see happen eventually, especially in Europe where they like universality and accelerating green technologies.

I've always thought Tesla would do much better licensing their technologies to companies who actually know how to build cars and if anything only producing their own vehicles like the Roadster 2. They'd probably be a generation ahead had they not tried to reinvent the auto manufacturing process automating everything that contradicts long established and proven techniques. And despite Tesla being able to manufacture cars, the quality of the vehicles coming out of their factories evidently is not so good- anecdotes and actual reports indicate this.

If I ordered a car and this is what I got, I would be furious. I've known people to blacklist companies for far less.

 

[Sydde]

Interesting Ars article on the beginning of a move toward structural batteries.

They can make fairly thin layer electrical energy storage using carbon fiber mated with lithium ion transfer chemistry that could be integrated into body and possibly frame components. This would eliminate the battery pack, making the car itself the battery, reducing overall weight, thereby increasing range and reducing the particulate emission (dust) issue.

There is a downside or two. Collisions could be problematic, unless they can figure out how to cellurarize/modularize the storage system. And, the whole vehicle being the battery means that once it gets old, you have to replace the whole thing instead of just swapping out the pack.

Still, I could see this idea catching on.

 

[stylinexpat]

Interesting Ars article on the beginning of a move toward structural batteries.

They can make fairly thin layer electrical energy storage using carbon fiber mated with lithium ion transfer chemistry that could be integrated into body and possibly frame components. This would eliminate the battery pack, making the car itself the battery, reducing overall weight, thereby increasing range and reducing the particulate emission (dust) issue.

There is a downside or two. Collisions could be problematic, unless they can figure out how to cellurarize/modularize the storage system. And, the whole vehicle being the battery means that once it gets old, you have to replace the whole thing instead of just swapping out the pack.

Still, I could see this idea catching on.

This is why one should have been buying NIO shares

 

[senseless]

Clever idea to swap batteries!

 

[pshufd]

Clever idea to swap batteries!

Tesla looked at this several years ago.

 

[diamond.g]

Tesla looked at this several years ago.

Tesla claimed that folks didn't want to use it, though they only had 1 swap station and it wasn't open long, and you had to return to get your own battery.

NIO is doing it right with leasing packs. That allows the vehicle driver to not worry about the things that Tesla owners fret about. Namely pack health.

 

[pshufd]

Tesla claimed that folks didn't want to use it, though they only had 1 swap station and it wasn't open long, and you had to return to get your own battery.

NIO is doing it right with leasing packs. That allows the vehicle driver to not worry about the things that Tesla owners fret about. Namely pack health.

I personally like Tesla's approach with supercharger stations. I would be more inclined to buy one of their cars with one.

At my last two tennis practices, there was my Camry (gasoline), a Prius, a Tesla, and an electric bike. So I was the odd one out. A strong charging network with a station nearby would give me a lot more confidence in getting power quickly when I need it.

 

[diamond.g]

I personally like Tesla's approach with supercharger stations. I would be more inclined to buy one of their cars with one.

At my last two tennis practices, there was my Camry (gasoline), a Prius, a Tesla, and an electric bike. So I was the odd one out. A strong charging network with a station nearby would give me a lot more confidence in getting power quickly when I need it.

I don’t have a problem with the charging setup Tesla uses, outside of there not being enough of them. Demand Charges make these stations extremely unprofitable. I am not really sure how EA will make money once the penalty payments are done.

 

[Huntn]

I don’t have a problem with the charging setup Tesla uses, outside of there not being enough of them. Demand Charges make these stations extremely unprofitable. I am not really sure how EA will make money once the penalty payments are done.

It appears that gas stations will go through major adjustments as recharge stations pop up all over.

 

[pshufd]

It appears that gas stations will go through major adjustments as recharge stations pop up all over.

One of the benefits of the Superchargers is exclusivity.

EVs have arrived when Costco has fast charging stations.

 

[stylinexpat]

Clever idea to swap batteries!

GoGoro does this in Taiwan for their e-scooters

Check out Gogoro's giant new battery swap stations for its electric scooters

Gogoro has pretty much set the world standard for how battery swap stations for electric scooters should operate. But that...

electrek.co

 

[Eraserhead]

One of the benefits of the Superchargers is exclusivity.

EVs have arrived when Costco has fast charging stations.

Lots of supermarkets do have fast (50kW+) charging stations here . One of the pub/restaurant chains is rolling them out too.

 

[4sallypat]

Lots of supermarkets do have fast (50kW+) charging stations here . One of the pub/restaurant chains is rolling them out too.

Yes but the myriad of charging station connections makes this difficult at best.

My PHEV uses the SAE J1772 but even they are not as common.
There are so many charger types - AC, HV AC, DC, Fast DC, Tesla SC, etc.....

The issue is that we have too many standards (remember back in the 1970-80s: VHS vs Betamax vs 8mm analog/digital vs VHS-C video recording/playback).

My home uses standard NEMA 6-15 220V AC Level 2 but there are homes that don't use that either.
At work, we have issues all the time because the utility company installed J1772 and CHAdeMO which covers most but nothing for the Teslas.

Teslas have to use an adapter to make the connection but charges much slower than a supercharger would.

And everytime I get a notification of a new charge station opening, 90% of the time, I can't use it.

Frustrating for EV owners for sure - if only one or 2 standards are used the charging network would become so useful!

• Port J1772. Level: 2.
• CHAdeMO. Level: 3.
• SAE Combo CCS. Level: 3.
• Tesla HPWC. Level: 2.
• Tesla supercharger. Level: 3.

 

[diamond.g]

Yes but the myriad of charging station connections makes this difficult at best.

My PHEV uses the SAE J1772 but even they are not as common.
There are so many charger types - AC, HV AC, DC, Fast DC, Tesla SC, etc.....

The issue is that we have too many standards (remember back in the 1970-80s: VHS vs Betamax vs 8mm analog/digital vs VHS-C video recording/playback).

My home uses standard NEMA 6-15 220V AC Level 2 but there are homes that don't use that either.
At work, we have issues all the time because the utility company installed J1772 and CHAdeMO which covers most but nothing for the Teslas.

Teslas have to use an adapter to make the connection but charges much slower than a supercharger would.

And everytime I get a notification of a new charge station opening, 90% of the time, I can't use it.

Frustrating for EV owners for sure - if only one or 2 standards are used the charging network would become so useful!

• Port J1772. Level: 2.
• CHAdeMO. Level: 3.
• SAE Combo CCS. Level: 3.
• Tesla HPWC. Level: 2.
• Tesla supercharger. Level: 3.

Tesla's can charge just fine on J1772 plugs. If you want to spend the loot, they will work just fine with Chademo as well. The only plug it will not work with is the Combo CCS, and we are not sure if that will always be the case as the Tesla has a type 2 CCS adapter in Europe.

For level 2 charging (which is AC charging to be clear) J1772 won. The only car that doesn't have a native port for it is Tesla. For DC charging (which isn't actually level 3 according to SAE) type 1 Combo CCS is the "standard" in the US. Nissan and Tesla are the outliers here.

 

[Eraserhead]

Is J1772 the “type 2” connector?

Because here I have that. And public ones generally use “type 2” for medium speed with CCS and Chademo for fast speed (although CCS has basically won afaik)

 

[diamond.g]

Is J1772 the “type 2” connector?

Because here I have that. And public ones generally use “type 2” for medium speed with CCS and Chademo for fast speed (although CCS has basically won afaik)

Your connector (EU) isn't J1772 (IEC 62196 Type 1), it is J3068 (IEC 62196 Type 2).

 

[Sydde]

Teslas have to use an adapter to make the connection but charges much slower than a supercharger would.

Supercharging is outlier usage, primarily for long road trips. Level 2 is entirely adequate for overnight charging or topping up while you are in the store. The less supercharging you do, the longer your batteries will last (level 2 charging puts less stress on them).

They say the Model X is capable of towing, but the one thing I have not heard anyone suggest is the possibility of an electric trailer. If the trailer had its own battery pack and a load-sensing "zero-inertia" drive system (with built-in self-regen braking), it could have a net positive effect on overall range.

 

[diamond.g]

Supercharging is outlier usage, primarily for long road trips. Level 2 is entirely adequate for overnight charging or topping up while you are in the store. The less supercharging you do, the longer your batteries will last (level 2 charging puts less stress on them).

They say the Model X is capable of towing, but the one thing I have not heard anyone suggest is the possibility of an electric trailer. If the trailer had its own battery pack and a load-sensing "zero-inertia" drive system (with built-in self-regen braking), it could have a net positive effect on overall range.

Safety precautions prevent most EVs from charging while in gear.