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spazzcat

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2007
3,680
4,767
more like. Apple blocks our app's spying too much... so we hate them. also...

yep, freedom to install is a right. if you spend $1k on a phone or iPad. ought you not be able to install software you choose to? without an Apple Pay wall? many say "HELL YES!"

You knew what you were buying before you bought it...
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
34,222
23,963
Gotta be in it to win it
Do you cross shop between the iOS App Store and the Google Play Store? Does anyone?
Can't be proven either way for those multi-device households. Could be yes, somewhat and/or no.

The answer is no. Therefor, they're in separate markets and don't compete.
My opinion, that is an incorrect answer.
Yes, they sell many identical items, but that doesn't make them the same market. Just like many of the same things can be bought in the US and Canada, that doesn't mean that the US and Canada are within the same market.

This isn't like Walmart and Target, or Home Depot and Lowes, or Walgreen and CVS, where I can easily look for a product in one, then cross the street and look for a product in the other, then buy from whichever sounds like a better deal to me.

Android phones and the iPhone are within the same market, so the iPhone itself is not a monopoly. The iOS App Store, however, is.

If someone wanted to sway my opinion on this, I think a good angle to look at would be comparing the iOS App Store to a concession stand... except no, that still doesn't work. I was going to argue that once I decide to see a movie in one theater, I'm going to use their concession stand, but that's nonsense - I, like most people, smuggle most of my candy in from other stores in the area. Something which can't be done on iOS - I can't smuggle an Android app onto my iOS device.
The ios app store being a monopoly is a narrow definition. One maybe the courts will address or not.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,715
Nope it would be the worst thing possible.

It would mean that parental controls on budget use are gone (or do you think those selling berries at 1000$ a pop would care to implement self-control if they don't have to in order to be allowed on the app store?)

It would mean that we all have to use dozens of different stores as all the big ones would rather have their own store than to pay Apple or anybody else.

It would mean the small developers would lose out big time as the big developers leave the apple store and hence they won't get the economy of scale there is now that allows them to get everything they need for 99$ a year.

It would mean the Apple app store become less relevant as the big ones disappear rom it and it would hurt the small developers big time as the Apple app store becomes less relevant to users. I wish them good luck on finding another app store that's going to be as fair to the small devs as to the huge ones as Apple is today.

It would mean you need to upgrade apps from every possible app store every time. You'd have to track down which app store has what app today for yourself, ...

It would mean much more uncontrolled access to all the sensors on our phones and that will lead to much more massive privacy violations.


The moment Apple stops being the gatekeeper to my phone by allowing another app store on it, is the moment I sell my iPhone and buy the dumbest phone I can find instead.
Or maybe just uninstall every last 3rd party app on it till it needs replacement.

If I wanted an android device, I'd have bought one.
It would also mean Apple will focus less on APIs and improvements in the development area if they get much less of a cut. The iPhone cost alone won't make up for it, especially now that phones have matured to the point where I really don't notice that much of a difference between an iPhone 6 and the iPhone 11. I am not a photographer, so all the constant talk year after year about camera this, pictures that just does not interest me at all.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,715
Being kicked out of Walmart isn't too big a deal - you can continue selling your product at Target, Amazon, Best Buy. Your customers can keep shopping at Walmart and they can also enter those other marketplaces to buy your product.

Being kicked out of the iOS App Store is not the same. It's like being kicked out of the country. You can no longer sell in the US. You can continue selling in Canada, but most people don't cross back and forth between the US and Canada. Most people within the US won't enter Canada ever, period.

Speaking out against Apple and the iOS App Store is a BIG deal. You risk being kicked out of the iOS App Store. This is an enormous risk because the iOS App Store is a monopoly - if your app isn't there, people with iOS will likely never buy it. It doesn't matter how much they want it - asking people to switch to Android is like asking people from the US to move to Canada. Some people will. Most people won't.

If the iOS App Store wasn't a monopoly, people wouldn't be afraid of speaking out against it. But it is a monopoly, and so people are afraid. With each person willing to say it, it requires less courage - Apple can't afford to have every big name leave. Epic started this, and as the risks go down, more people are willing to join in.

I do wonder - did Facebook, Microsoft, or Amazon pay Epic to start this? Or did Epic start it on their own accord? The truth will likely come out in a few years, after the dust is settled and Apple's monopoly is a memory.
Being kicked out of iOS is exactly the same. You have the Android environment. You can keep selling on Android just like you can keep selling at Target.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,715
Think of the Mac or Windows if you could only install applications through the respective official store and for each transaction the company would take 30%?

Would feel pretty crazy right? Hard to even imagine.

Disclaimer: I deliver apps through the Mac App Store because I find it convenient and I get some downloads with the organic search. Still good to have options I think, both for devs and consumers.

You do realize Windows has a version like this right? Windows 10 S. We specifically got that for my Grandma because our entire family got sick of dealing with malware every week.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
12,825
6,880
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I think it’s outrageous that Apple wouldn’t waive the 30% fee for Online Events, since they’re just taking that money from struggling small businesses. That being said, Zuckerberg criticizing literally any company for anything is beyond laughable. Facebook is the most immoral, greedy, invasive, petulant, criminal company in tech, and it all comes from the guy at the top.

why would a struggling company enter a deal with facebook to have an event where FB takes their revenue then hands it to them?

see how asinine that really sounds?

I threw house parties and showed the event on FB and in NO way did I use Fb to handle my money or the funds for the venue or to pay the DJs!

post an announcement with calendar date and an RSVP. Don’t involve FB for anything related to payment - it would be foolish.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,715

Because apple doesn't have 90+% of the smartphone market, like Microsoft did with the PC market

Here we go again. Its not because of marketshare. I agree with you m11rphy that its not the same as the Microsoft case. Here is why.

79. Microsoft's first response to the threat posed by Navigator was an effort to persuade Netscape to structure its business such that the company would not distribute platform- level browsing software for Windows. Netscape's assent would have ensured that, for the foreseeable future, Microsoft would produce the only platform-level browsing software distributed to run on Windows. This would have eliminated the prospect that non-Microsoft browsing software could weaken the applications barrier to entry.

143. Decision-makers at Microsoft worried that simply developing its own attractive browser product, pricing it at zero, and promoting it vigorously would not divert enough browser usage from Navigator to neutralize it as a platform. They believed that a comparable browser product offered at no charge would still not be compelling enough to consumers to detract substantially from Navigator's existing share of browser usage. This belief was due, at least in part, to the fact that Navigator already enjoyed a very large installed base and had become nearly synonymous with the Web in the public's consciousness. If Microsoft was going to raise Internet Explorer's share of browser usage and lower Navigator's share, executives at Microsoft believed they needed to constrict Netscape's access to the distribution channels that led most efficiently to browser usage.

And also complaints from Sun Java.


MICROSOFT'S RESPONSE TO THE THREAT POSED BY SUN'S IMPLEMENTATION OF JAVA

386. For Microsoft, a key to maintaining and reinforcing the applications barrier to entry has been preserving the difficulty of porting applications from Windows to other platforms, and vice versa. In 1996, senior executives at Microsoft became aware that the number of developers writing network-centric applications in the Java programming language had become significant, and that Java was likely to increase in popularity among developers. Microsoft therefore became interested in maximizing the difficulty with which applications written in Java could be ported from Windows to other platforms, and vice versa.
 
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Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,715
That's no true. I can't write an x-rated app for iOS. Other types of apps aren't allowed. Apple most definitely is keeping people out as they try to force their morality on everyone.

And no, everyone is not on the same level. If I'm Amazon, I can use my own payment processing system and avoid paying Apple any commission on the things customers buy using my app. If I'm Epic, I must use Apple's payment processing system and pay 30%. Why? Because Amazon is selling a "physical" good and Epic is selling a "digital" good. Neither of which rely upon any Apple infrastructure. Is there really such an inherent difference between a physical and digital good that one does not deserve a commission? Or is it just because that's what Apple says, therefore it's fair and just?
I can't produce an x-rated website on Squarespace. "So move to a different host" you might say? What makes my response to you "Move to android" any different? Squarespace has a monopoly on the Squarespace engine that I prefer to use, I just want to make an x-rated website with their tools and features!

(not really, just making a point)
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,797
6,715
"Monopoly" is a diction-defined term:
Any business can be a "monopoly" if you define the relevant market narrowly enough. For example, BMW has a "monopoly" on car sales that take place inside BMW dealerships. But we'd all agree that the "market" in that context should be broader than BMW showrooms, right?

Same principle here. Apple can only be a "monopoly" if the relevant marketplace is defined as the iOS platform. But that's a stupidly narrow definition for market in this context.

Now, to your point, Apple may yet be found to be in violation of anti-trust laws. But they aren't a monopoly by any meaningful definition of that term.

Yep. Its like saying Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Games. Or Sony has a Monopoly on PS4 games. Or Netflix has a monopoly on Netflix originals.
 

anson42

Contributor
Mar 13, 2014
1,064
979
Oakland, CA
Really don’t understand how the EU is so quiet on this. They r usually really picky with these kind of things

The EU has more encompassing privacy laws that the US at the moment. I can see conflict there between perceived anti-monopolistic behavior vs the ecosystem's privacy-friendly stance. But who knows, it may just be the calm before the storm.
 

Karllake

macrumors regular
Jul 15, 2012
229
300
WOW! That’s deep?. Does anyone know if this has ever been done before? On Google Play or other? Who paid how much to whom?

... and wouldn’t it only be all inception if the app store within the app store on the App Store would enable side loading??
Side loading of another AppStore? ?
 

UBS28

macrumors 68030
Oct 2, 2012
2,893
2,340
Yep. Its like saying Microsoft has a monopoly on Xbox Games. Or Sony has a Monopoly on PS4 games. Or Netflix has a monopoly on Netflix originals.

BS.

You can buy and install games bought outside Microsoft their app store for the Xbox one X.

Microsoft does not force people to do it, like Apple does.
 

Arbuthnott

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2008
185
274
I think it’s outrageous that Apple wouldn’t waive the 30% fee for Online Events, since they’re just taking that money from struggling small businesses. That being said, Zuckerberg criticizing literally any company for anything is beyond laughable. Facebook is the most immoral, greedy, invasive, petulant, criminal company in tech, and it all comes from the guy at the top.
It was a Facebook initiative that Apple hadn’t signed up to - so why would Apple effectively provide financial support? If Zuckerberg feels so strongly, perhaps Facebook could pay Apple’s fees - now that would be a demonstration of commitment.
 

Arbuthnott

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2008
185
274
more like. Apple blocks our app's spying too much... so we hate them. also...

yep, freedom to install is a right. if you spend $1k on a phone or iPad. ought you not be able to install software you choose to? without an Apple Pay wall? many say "HELL YES!"
Frankly I don’t care what you choose to install on your iPhone. There are jailbreak options out there right now that will let you install what you want. Just don’t expect to be able to change the rules in a way that makes the rest of us less secure. Your “right” does not trump everybody else’s!
 

Onelifenofear

macrumors 6502a
Feb 20, 2019
699
1,326
London
more like. Apple blocks our app's spying too much... so we hate them. also...

yep, freedom to install is a right. if you spend $1k on a phone or iPad. ought you not be able to install software you choose to? without an Apple Pay wall? many say "HELL YES!"

Off you got to Malware Ridden Security hole that is Android outside the playstore. It's like the Wild West but with machine guns. I am a dev and happily give my 30% to Apple ( and playstore ) for security for me and my customer. I stopped developing for Windows because despite the reasonable sales 80% of users were on pirated copies and then a malware version got out - and I got the grief.. probably me saying serves you right on the forums :)

Apple win NEVER sacrifice the security. They of course want your 30% but also offer free apps where they don't make a penny. The thing with Epic they want ALL apples customers and goodwill for free and to ables to sell for free and also a backdoor to your data.

It's like if you set up a bricks and mortar store...it become popular then Epic comes along and DEMANDS to be able to set up a stall inside and also not pay a penny to you.
 

Onelifenofear

macrumors 6502a
Feb 20, 2019
699
1,326
London
Things I will never do:
1. Buy anything Facebook sells. Unfortunately mean Oculus is out.
2. install any Facebook Apps. FB / Instagram / WhatsApp - Facebook is on my borrower and completely locked down and every privacy option checked - but they change them and reset them without you realising - especially the advertising. The apps reset for me every update... and they give it away because the annoying in-app notification sound comes back.

Facebook is basically the most evil company out there. Those leaked Zuckerberg mail from years ago showed how little he cares about users and actually sees us as cattle to be milked, then slaughtered. All he care about is how he can package us up and sell us. And people just blindly walk into that hole for him.
 
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