Fake products - why do you support the sellers?

[onlineretailer]

I am new to the forum and have noticed a lot of talk about Fake Vapor Pro's and other Fake products. I question why there would be so much support and positive reviews here for counterfeit products.

I understand the pricing difference between a $30 Fake Vapor pro and a $129 original but come on if pricing were an issue wouldn't we all have android phones and samsung netbooks? An authentic Element Case is Made in the USA - does that not mean anything?

I operate a few websites primarily focused on the sale of iPhone and Android cases and accessories and really want to understand this issue and get your feedback. We sell a fair amount of Authentic Element Cases, we do not sell any of the counterfeits but i am sure the counterfeit sales online outnumber the authentic.

 

[Atomant669]

I am new to this forum and I must say I'm surprised to see the overwhelming response to fake products here as well. But oh well, I'm still learning.

 

[eba]

Wondered the same thing myself. I assume it's just the age-old story of people wanting something for as close to nothing as they can get it, even if it means bending the law to get it. Of course, supporting counterfeiters only discourages innovation so there's less cool stuff in the long run, but I guess people rationalize that their individual purchase doesn't really do any harm. Short-sighted, but sadly all too common.

Of course, MacRumors could adopt a policy against allowing posts supporting counterfeiting - like they already do against copyright infringement. That certainly would help. After all, would they allow threads reviewing counterfeit iPhones? You'd think with the recent Megaupload case, they'd be more sensitive to the risks (not to mention the ethics) of allowing people to use this site to openly support counterfeiting.

So, MacRumors, what's up with that, anyway?

 

[Daveoc64]

An authentic Element Case is Made in the USA - does that not mean anything?

I'm always confused by this.

Americans are very pro-capitalism, yet they're willing to support an idea that is very anti-capitalistic - i.e. buying something that might cost more or is inferior simply because it's made in the USA.

Obviously that's not too relevant when you're talking about fake/counterfeit goods, but I think it's a valid point.

 

[eba]

I'm always confused by this.

Americans are very pro-capitalism, yet they're willing to support an idea that is very anti-capitalistic - i.e. buying something that might cost more or is inferior simply because it's made in the USA.

Obviously that's not too relevant when you're talking about fake/counterfeit goods, but I think it's a valid point.

Capitalism means a free market. Which means competition. Which means choice. Which means some people will willingly pay more for Apple products. And some will willingly pay more for USA-made products. Same concept. Nothing anti-capitalism about it.

 

[billycuth]

for me personally, a $22 mistake > a $150 mistake.

If I buy the Vapor Pro case and I hate it, I don't want to deal with the hassle. For $22, it's not a huge deal if I hate it and can't send it back.

Element Cases are way overpriced. And their prices seem to be getting higher and higher. Soon they'll be more expensive than the phone itself!

 

[eba]

Element Cases are way overpriced. And their prices seem to be getting higher and higher.

I wonder why that is?

They spend money to innovate and create a great case that everyone wants. Then people go buy cheap, illegal counterfeits. So to recoup their investment, they raise their prices. Next time, they may decide not to innovate at all.

That's the economics of piracy.

 

[billycuth]

I wonder why that is?

They spend money to innovate and create a great case that everyone wants. Then people go by cheap, illegal counterfeits. So to recoup their investment, they raise their prices. Next time, they may decide not to innovate at all.

That's the economics of piracy.

That's their choice. People flee to "piracy" when prices get out of control. Some of us don't have the disposable income to throw $300 or $450 + on cases (for those that like to have different looks). Alternatives become available and people take advantage. There's maybe something morally wrong with that, but buyers aren't the ones making copies.

Oakley deals with this a lot as well, but Oakleys cannot be accurately counterfeit in my opinion because the lenses are what makes the glasses. Cheap crappy lenses are easy to spot and don't provide real benefits to the user.

But we're talking about a case here. All people are really going for (well at least me) is a certain look for their phone. If a counterfeit can come close enough to the look the user wants, we already know the price is right, so people will buy them without losing sleep at night.

I don't have statistics for element case sales vs. the knock offs, but I bet the knockoffs outsell the originals by far. And to me, that says the price is just too high.

If a Vapor Pro White case was available from Element Case for $75, I would make that purchase. But at $150, I don't lose sleep over ordering a $22 case from Hong Kong and neither should anyone.

 

[xdbuix]

all valid reasons, but when there's high cost, there's bound to be fake products. That's with every product.

 

[eba]

That's their choice. People flee to "piracy" when prices get out of control. Some of us don't have the disposable income to throw $300 or $450 + on cases (for those that like to have different looks). Alternatives become available and people take advantage. There's maybe something morally wrong with that, but buyers aren't the ones making copies.

Oakley deals with this a lot as well, but Oakleys cannot be accurately counterfeit in my opinion because the lenses are what makes the glasses. Cheap crappy lenses are easy to spot and don't provide real benefits to the user.

But we're talking about a case here. All people are really going for (well at least me) is a certain look for their phone. If a counterfeit can come close enough to the look the user wants, we already know the price is right, so people will buy them without losing sleep at night.

I don't have statistics for element case sales vs. the knock offs, but I bet the knockoffs outsell the originals by far. And to me, that says the price is just too high.

If a Vapor Pro White case was available from Element Case for $75, I would make that purchase. But at $150, I don't lose sleep over ordering a $22 case from Hong Kong and neither should anyone.

There are as many rationalizations for piracy as there are poseurs who support it.

And with the proliferation of companies that practice it (and countries that let them get away with it), plus the relative anonymity of the internet, it's increasingly difficult to combat.

But it is just as unethical to tacitly support it.

People want cool stuff for cheap. Fine. But let's not pretend it's anything other than the illegal activity it really is.

(I wonder how long a thread entitled "Fake iPhone Reviews" would last here? Why the double standard?)

 

[guccigucci88]

I don't have statistics for element case sales vs. the knock offs, but I bet the knockoffs outsell the originals by far. And to me, that says the price is just too high.

umm and where did you pull that out of? This statement rules everything you say invalid. Sorry

 

[entatlrg]

The American shopper is selfish, wants it cheap as possible, and has no morals or loyalty.

Hence you have the very, very serious problem with the American economy ...everything is catching up with you FAST. You owe just about more than you're worth, 15 TRILLION. A lot of that debt is to China

The consumer isnt forward thinking or simply doesn't care. Walmart prices win, who cares if it bankrupts every small business in the area, I want my toothpaste conveniently and I want to save .10 cents a tube if I can.

The result of this no loyalty to your country's economy and buying knock offs is that we'll ALL be working Walmart type jobs in the future. The big companies win, our wages and quality of jobs will get worse, the middle glass disappears and by the time the average person 'gets it' its too late. But we'll still have just enough money to buy our treasures at Walmart, the dollar store etc.

That's what we're in the middle of now. Boatloads of junk from China can't hit the American shores fast enough. It's cheap and nearly 100% of the time you sacrifice a lot in quality.

Canada is in the same position we're just moving that direction a little slower.

Knock off's suck, they hurt your fellow countrymen. Does the consumer care, even if you take the time to explain it to them? No, they want cheap and want to buy as many material things as their dollar with get them.

It's a serious situation, from clothes, electronics, even food ingredients ... all coming from China made in under horrific labor conditions ... But who cares, long as we can save a dollar. Sad.

 

[eba]

The American shopper is selfish, wants it cheap as possible, and has no morals or loyalty.

Hence you have the very, very serious problem with the American economy ...everything is catching up with you FAST. You owe just about more than you're worth, 15 TRILLION. A lot of that debt is to China

The consumer isnt forward thinking or simply doesn't care. Walmart prices win, who cares if it bankrupts every small business in the area, I want my toothpaste conveniently and I want to save .10 cents a tube if I can.

The result of this no loyalty to your country's economy and buying knock offs is that we'll ALL be working Walmart type jobs in the future. The big companies win, our wages and quality of jobs will get worse, the middle glass disappears and by the time the average person 'gets it' its too late. But we'll still have just enough money to buy our treasures at Walmart, the dollar store etc.

That's what we're in the middle of now. Boatloads of junk from China can't hit the American shores fast enough. It's cheap and nearly 100% of the time you sacrifice a lot in quality.

Canada is in the same position we're just moving that direction a little slower.

Knock off's suck, they hurt your fellow countrymen. Does the consumer care, even if you take the time to explain it to them? No, they want cheap and want to buy as many material things as their dollar with get them.

It's a serious situation, from clothes, electronics, even food ingredients ... all coming from China made in under horrific labor conditions ... But who cares, long as we can save a dollar. Sad.

Yep.

And it certainly doesn't help when high-profile (and otherwise outstanding) websites like this one tacitly condone it.

 

[BillMc40]

I am not defending anyone here. I have read all fo the reviews I can find on the "real element vapor pro case". Element Case has some really bad customer reviews! If you want to charge 100.00 plus for a phone that cost 200.00 you had probally bettter have some great customer service. I own neither the real or knock off. Looks like the knock off sellers go out of thier way to make you happy. Element Case on the other hand not so much.
BillMc

 

[billycuth]

The American shopper is selfish, wants it cheap as possible, and has no morals or loyalty.

Hence you have the very, very serious problem with the American economy ...everything is catching up with you FAST. You owe just about more than you're worth, 15 TRILLION. A lot of that debt is to China

The consumer isnt forward thinking or simply doesn't care. Walmart prices win, who cares if it bankrupts every small business in the area, I want my toothpaste conveniently and I want to save .10 cents a tube if I can.

The result of this no loyalty to your country's economy and buying knock offs is that we'll ALL be working Walmart type jobs in the future. The big companies win, our wages and quality of jobs will get worse, the middle glass disappears and by the time the average person 'gets it' its too late. But we'll still have just enough money to buy our treasures at Walmart, the dollar store etc.

That's what we're in the middle of now. Boatloads of junk from China can't hit the American shores fast enough. It's cheap and nearly 100% of the time you sacrifice a lot in quality.

Canada is in the same position we're just moving that direction a little slower.

Knock off's suck, they hurt your fellow countrymen. Does the consumer care, even if you take the time to explain it to them? No, they want cheap and want to buy as many material things as their dollar with get them.

It's a serious situation, from clothes, electronics, even food ingredients ... all coming from China made in under horrific labor conditions ... But who cares, long as we can save a dollar. Sad.

I understand your point, but this isn't about $.10. I actually agree with you.

What we're talking about here is $125, and the expectation that we're going to get an inferior product.

As was mentioned before, the Vapor case is a luxury item. And its price reflects that. But this isn't about big box versus the little guy. It's about the middle income to low income American buyer getting something he or she wants at an affordable price point. I don't think it is truly eating into Element Case's market because the people buying them could never afford the real thing. All it is doing is creating market where there was none before.

Though, some consumers are stupid, and they will buy the $150 case they can't really afford on credit, and then rack up debt. So when you look at it that way, Element Case's price point on their products are just as much of a problem for this country as the pirated products are for Element Case.

It's a viscous cycle, perpetrated by selfish human nature. Element Case doen't make cases just to make them. They make them to milk as much disposable income as they can out of an average consumer. So let's not just pretend that only one side of this equation is pure evil. It's a never ending debate that neither side can truly win.

 

[eba]

Looks like the knock off sellers go out of thier way to make you happy.

Have you actually read the "Fake" threads? There are plenty of complaints about shoddy quality and poor (or nonexistent) customer service.

There's one reason - and only one - why people buy fakes. And neither "quality" nor "customer service" is it.

 

[billycuth]

Yep.

And it certainly doesn't help when high-profile (and otherwise outstanding) websites like this one tacitly condone it.

Oh, so because macrumors forums allows discussion of pirated products on their website, they condone it?

Is there no such thing as free speech?

 

[eba]

.

Element Case doen't make cases just to make them. They make them to milk as much disposable income as they can out of an average consumer. So let's not just pretend that only one side of this equation is pure evil.

So now Element is "evil" for creating the case in the first place?!!?

Wow.

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Oh, so because macrumors forums allows discussion of pirated products on their website, they condone it?

Yes. Again, are you suggesting that a "Fake iPhone Reviews" thread here would be OK?

Is there no such thing as free speech?

Fraud is speech and illegal. Hate crime is speech and illegal. Marketing counterfeit products is speech and illegal. The law does not protect all speech.

 

[billycuth]

So now Element is "evil" for creating the case in the first place?!!?

Wow.

no more or less evil than the consumer trying to be responsible for their own bottom line and avoid going into debt by buying cheaper products.

If innovation is the name of the game, you should be praising the chinese knock offs. They innovated a way to create a similar case for much cheaper.

----------

So now Element is "evil" for creating the case in the first place?!!?

Wow.

----------



Yes. Again, are you suggesting that a "Fake iPhone Reviews" thread here would be OK?



Fraud is speech and illegal. Hate crime is speech and illegal. Marketing counterfeit products is speech and illegal. The law does not protect all speech.

I may not understand why a fake iPhone Reviews thread might be here, but I wouldn't equate them being here with the site owner condoning the action of purchasing them. That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? Plus, the iPhone itself has a lot more R&D to it than any case for the phone does, so from an intellectual property standpoint, I'd say Apple has a lot more to lose than Element does. You're talking about years of research and design, on a very complex electrical device, versus a block of aircraft grade aluminum shaped by a machine to complement the device. Big difference.

As for the crimes you mentioned - sure - those aren't protected, but talking about someone else who committed them isn't illegal. And buying pirated products isn't illegal either (yet). However, creating them and selling them is. So you enjoy your strawman, but I'd say your way off base.

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I'm sure there's a huge debate on this raging in the Pharmaceutical world, but for all those diametrically opposed to buying counterfeit products better not be buying Generic prescriptions and store brand OTC drugs!! That's all pirated stuff!

 

[eba]

no more or less evil than the consumer trying to be responsible for their own bottom line and avoid going into debt by buying cheaper products.

If innovation is the name of the game, you should be praising the chinese knock offs. They innovated a way to create a similar case for much cheaper.

Then I suppose the guy who opened the fake Apple Store in China is the next Steve Jobs? Interesting.

Let me guess. You probably don't run a business, right?

 

[416049]

Competition never hurts and it might cause expensive case makers like elements to bring their price down or adjust them.

 

[billycuth]

Then I suppose the guy who opened the fake Apple Store in China is the next Steve Jobs? Interesting.

Let me guess. You probably don"t run a business, right?

Wow - you like to make some crazy logical leaps my friend. I never suggested anything of the sort.

 

[eba]

Wow - you like to make some crazy logical leaps my friend. I never suggested anything of the sort.

When you equate counterfeiting with innovation, you do exactly that.

In any event, I've made my point. And it's Saturday and there are better things to do.

It will be interesting, though, to see if either this thread or the "Fake" thread gets locked. And in which order.

 

[billycuth]

When you equate counterfeiting with innovation, you do exactly that.

In any event, I've made my point. And it's Saturday and there are better things to do.

It will be interesting, though, to see if either this thread or the "Fake" thread gets locked. And in which order.

I don't see any personal attacks being thrown. I see little reason for a thread that has gone on for so long (the fake vapor thread) to be closed now.

For people who get so aggravated over piracy, they sure are OK with taking away people's right to discuss openly and honestly with each other.

 

[billycuth]

umm and where did you pull that out of? This statement rules everything you say invalid. Sorry

the word BET indicates that the statement is not fact, but opinion. You're certainly within your right to your opinion about my opinion as well, but it doesn't invalidate anything I have said. Everything I have said is personal opinion - and as they say opinions are like _____... everyone has one.