Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Fake products - why do you support the sellers?
- Thread starter onlineretailer
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
No, we're talking about people buying knock-offs. Those people AREN'T buying the stuff they can't afford or more realistically, stuff they refuse to pay that much for. So again, your argument is moot and arrogant.
Oh trust me, I get what you're trying to say. You just have the wrong idea about the debate at hand and my responses.
I'll give you credit for this comment. You have a valid point. I've long said that I wish these knock-offs would stop using the brand names and just make them blank or call it something else. And actually, surfing those sites, I see that they have begun to make their own generic aluminum cases that resemble the real thing. Like Hyundais.
I don't support anything of the nature. The people who buy these knock-offs in mass bulk without being able validate authenticity are the ones who really support the knock-offs. The people who buy in bulk to intentionally deceive buyers are the ones that support it. All of us on this forum can stop buying them and they will still continue to exist because of the above mentioned. That's just me being realistic. I can boycott Wal-Mart all I want (and I actually do), but I know it won't change anything.
And you're absolutely wrong about women making fun of fakes. Yea, if the fakes are pure crap and blindingly obvious. What you're probably witnessing is women making fun of other women they are jealous of or hate or mistakenly accusing them of having a fake. Women can be real spiteful towards one another.
But never mind all of what we just discussed. You have yet to address my point that these Element knock-offs are free advertisement.
Is an iPhone "necessary"? Why not get a mid-range Android phone? We're on an Apple forum; how many people do you think would argue that most Apple products are "showing off luxury"? Tell me that at least a portion of the price of Apple products are not attributed to excellent design, and to a lesser extent (though much more so in the past), a level of brand exclusivity.
Really?
If you can't afford a Mercedes just don't get a Hyundai and slap a Mercedes emblem on it. I have absolutely no problem with cheaper versions of products; however, direct rip offs that are meant to replicate an item in which they are not and meant to miss lead others to their true colors are a joke.
Knockoff Element Cases are NOT what a Hyundai is to a Mercedes and you know that. A fake Element Case is a crappy quality case that 100% rips off the design and effort of the Element Case brand
How many people complain on these forums about "fake Macbook Pros"? At least these aren't branded Apple:
Also Hyundais are actually pretty nice cars now.
Most people who consider a fashion a hobby (as most here would consider technology / Apple products a hobby) would be able to spot a fake Louis Vuitton bag a mile away. Moreover, most of the people that get ripped off by fakes are those that care more about the brand than have a passionate for say, horology.
Getting fake products like those simply say: "I can't afford the real thing but I really want it." There is nothing wrong with not being able to afford the cream of the crop; however, there's a certain level of personal insecurity that is portrayed in those that purchase numerous fake products and then try to flaunt them.
Are you seriously comparing an accessory to the iPhone itself? Let's play along with your analogy... why not get an Android? Okay, why not get a cheaper knock-off version of a ridiculously expensive aluminum bumper?
Apple's prices aren't that different from the competition. Unsubsidized maybe, but that's not what the majority of customers are spending on it. And quite frankly, I didn't get the iPhone for the image. I skipped out on iPhones until the 3G and I got that because there were no arguments as to the superiority of that device in those days. I'm locked in now because I'm grandfathered in to an unlimited data plan via AT&T on top of the fact that I'm quite attached to some of my apps. I would lose progress on those apps if I transferred to a Droid since the accounts on the apps in question do not carry over.
If you actually took the time to read my response, you would know that I concede to this point. I have always agreed with that point. The knock-off manufacturers are plenty capable of churning out these designs with minor tweaks and without copying the brand name itself. Which they do now (though they still make the knock-offs too).
I know Hyundais are nice now. They have a great warranty and really managed to turn the company around after that huge strike in Korea over a decade ago. However, they have long copied designs of other companies. The Genesis still to this day looks like a Mercedes. But yea, at least they aren't slapping the Mercedes emblem on it... not that they can get away with that if they wanted to anyway.
Again, you guys make a claim that has 0 evidence. Though this is just in my own life... in my nearly 32 years on this planet, I've never ran into people saying "Look at that fake LV she's carrying". I have however ran into several people who admitted to having a fake LV/Coach/Gucci/Rolex. Here's the thing, unless it's a person who got ripped off, people that search for these types of knock-offs shop for the ones that you absolutely cannot tell without examining. I'm sure people who can eyeball a fake no matter how good the replication exist, but I will bet money that they are exceedingly rare. Even then, they probably take other variables into account. You know, someone has an LV bag, but is wearing jeans from Target. Pretty safe to say it's a fake.
With all that said though, this is a poor analogy anyway. People buy these knock-off name brands because they want to feel like they are in that 1%. They want to show off these fashionable items to get some social points. I'm going to guess that the majority of knock-off iPhone case buyers aren't in that same category. These cases aren't widely known. There's absolutely no social status gain from having it with the few exceptions of people that do know about them. This is a matter of people having a set budget in mind and stumbling across this forum or others that happen to have links and reviews of the knock-offs which are within their budget. Now these people are enticed, not because they have social status to gain for cheap, but because they can get a cooler case for the budget they had in mind.
That's all this is folks. People are buying knock-off iPhone cases because they rather have that for their money than some other less cool case. For the most part at least.
And I can tell you from personal experience that people can spot fakes on people. Girls love to play spot the poser with the fake purse.
And people buying a knock off because they would rather have a cooler case for that money than some other less cool case is exactly what it is about. Just like some guy would would rather have a cooler watch for his $20. Same deal.
What you don't touch on is the fact that supporting this isn't victimless. People are getting ripped off on eBay. People do get duped all the time by counterfeit goods. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need to produce all the fake packaging to go along with it. Think about it. For everyone selling the fake cases for $20 each, there are those selling them at $100 each. Hey, $50 off retail seems like a great deal, and a plausible discount. But the buyer is getting a $20 case. And the packaging is good enough they don't know the difference except they think the quality of the product is crap.
There are some things you just can't buy safely online because of the fakes. I wouldn't dare buy beats headphones from eBay or used because the fakes are that good. My fiancée almost bought a pair of Tory burch shoes today except I pointed out that a seam was in the wrong place. Fakes are everywhere and people are not just selling them cheap. They're passing them off as real for some serious profit.
Inferior? What product made in the USA is inferior than the knockoff made in China
I always prefer to buy US made stuff if the cost is not that much higher, it supports jobs in this bad economy and quality tends to be so much better than chinese.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. We are running in circles. In particular, you keep ignoring some of my comments... especially the parts where I'm actually in agreement with you.
As I already stated, when these girls play "spot the fake", they are taking other variables into account. Also, I'm completely excluding the horrible fakes that are blindingly obvious. I'm talking about customers who actively seek out ones that look as real as possible. This is like the man-made diamond vs real diamond issue. People claim they can tell the difference, but the majority can't without the right tools.
And how do you know those girls are correct about spotting fakes anyway? Just because they are collectively making fun other girls with what they claim to be fake? By the way, what kind of rotten group of girls are these anyway?
Here, let's play a game. Though I'm sure you're not as "expert" as those girls you speak of...
Which one is real? This should be easier than in real life since it's in your face. One disclaimer though, this picture came from a store in NY that held a giveaway for people that could tell the real from the fake. Even though customers were able to examine it, still 1/3 got it wrong. So for you to suggest that a group of girls can spot a fake consistently sounds pretty unbelievable.
Something more up your alley... spot the fake:
Inferior? What product made in the USA is inferior than the knockoff made in China
I always prefer to buy US made stuff if the cost is not that much higher, it supports jobs in this bad economy and quality tends to be so much better than chinese.
Common misconception that leads to ignorant nationalistic pride. Fact of the matter is, and take any Economics course if you don't believe me, imports help our economy. Even outsourcing helps (as annoying as it is). The real enemy is off-shoring. That's when businesses pack up and move their facilities out-of-country. Now that hurts.
Excluding knock-offs, many imports are of higher quality than American-made products. Cars are great example of this. Though I'd say American cars have finally caught up in quality nowadays. But it took a colossal failure for the Big 3 to clean up their act. All that buy American bravado and the Big 3 go bankrupt. Then people conveniently placed the blame on imports. They totally ignored the fact that companies like GM made countless horrible decisions like nixing the EV1 electric car. In the 90's, they had in their hands, the first electric vehicle. It received positive reviews as a concept and as a limited production release. Yet, GM decided to cease further production. Why? Basically, they got greedy. SUV's were rapidly on the rise in popularity. Gas prices were cheap in those days as well. Well, we all know what happened when Toyota released the Prius. And that car still dominates the hybrid market.
But yea, none of this is the fault of American-made products. Let's blame the people who buy imports. Another ignorant part about that (at least with cars)? Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Hyundai, etc... all have American plants. Guess who they employ?
Some job loss is obviously going to occur due to off-shoring. But you have to wonder... how much of a role does bad decision making by top level execs play? Your employees are losing their jobs and you're flying in a private jet while still receiving millions of dollars. But who cares right? BUY 'MURICA!!!!
The one on the right is fake. Wrong symbol on the bottom, and the seam and stitching alignment is off. LV prides itself on perfection. Notice how the stitching on the one on the left cuts through the star symbol on exactly the same place each time? On the right it's slightly sloppier, over the dot on the right and thought the dot by the time you get to the left. Similar story with the bottom seam.
That being said, excellent fake.
The one on top is definitely fake. Logo size/placement on the side is off as well as the insert fitting.
Bottom one is better, can't tell from that picture.
Frankly, even in your example, if the guess rate was 66% right on the purses and the odds were a straight 50/50, I'd say that it shows that women are quite good at spotting fakes. If they couldn't, there wouldn't be such a strong deviation. And that's from a very very very very good counterfeit. If they are that good at spotting a near perfect copy, then they are probably much better at the garden variety fakes. Girls know their stuff.
There's a lot of variations in fakes and a lot of price variation. You can spend $50 on a fake Rolex that can be spotted a mile away, or near a thousand for one that you'd almost have to crack the back to tell. Still a fake. Still wrong.
----------
Oh, and to get back on topic,
Fakes are not "free advertisement"
If you make a quality product, the last thing you want is people making a crap ton of second rate fakes and slapping your name on it.
If people know its a fake, it damages your brand. If they don't know it's a fake, then it damages your reputation.
It hurts the consumers when they get fooled by unscrupulous dealers and it hurts the manufacturers.
Tell me you didn't Google the LV thing. A guy knows about the Diamond pattern in the center on the bottom of all their bags? LoL.
As for the cases, both are fake.
In my example, the guess rate was high because as I stated, they got to examine the bag. Something they can't do in real life. If they simply eyeballed it from a distance on someone's body, that percentage would surely drop and be truer to the 50/50 chance. But even in this little game that the shop played, the numbers weren't completely convincing. 1/3 of fashionable people couldn't tell even after molesting the bags. So when you say people can eyeball it at an accurate rate, I call BS on it all day every day.
As for the cases, look... even you didn't know for sure if they were fake or not. And these pictures were close-up shots. Again, that's not going to be the situation in real-life. You're going to see it laying on someone's table or in their hands likely from a comfortable distance.
And again and again... I agree with you on your point about consumers that get duped. So please stop bringing that point up.
As for free advertisement... with the Element cases... it is. Like I said, for the people who aren't duped... bystanders that see you with your fake Element case... all they see is a cool aluminum bumper they know nothing about. That's is the majority of the situations. I know, I used to own a fake and have gotten countless comments like "Cool case man... is that metal? What is it?" None of them asked to hold it. They just asked what it was. All of those people now know about Element and nothing of the knock-off. Nor do they know anything about the quality because they never touched it.
How is this hurting Element?
Want to know what really hurts Element? The people who buy knock-offs in bulk and cheat people. The businesses that do not do their proper research before ordering quantities of these knock-offs. Those are the ones that keep the knock-off industry running. Not the people who come on this forum an buy a couple. Yes, there are hundreds of people who buy knock-offs on this site, but the majority of them order one at a time or maybe a few. The knock-off companies don't make enough profits from these individual orders to sustain their business. International shipping is not cheap even for a business. That's why most of them won't even let you order single orders.
But anyway man, I get your point dude. No need to debate anymore. You are the bigger man. You won't buy this stuff. I commend you.
You treat this like I treat Wal-Mart.
Fake products - why do you support the sellers?
I take an interest in fakes because I don't like getting duped. I've had experience with the LV thing, so, yes, l know about the symbol placement. They also never cut the LV on a seam, and unless it's a continuous panel bag they'll never be upside down. And the stitching is always perfect down to the number of stitches on a tag. So, yea, I know.
And that is for a near perfect fake. Most fakes aren't that good. Fake Gucci, fake Coach especially.
I dunno. From my perspective I got the first one dead right and the second one I correctly doubted despite you putting two fakes up as a trick. Batting 2.5/3 even with deception is pretty damn good in my book.
You're supporting the industry that makes the fakes. That's how. Brand dilution. That's how. And, as I've seen, when the paint chips off the fake in flakes and it looks like crap, reputation. You may not let them handle your phone, but other people do. People can tell quality when you handle it.
You want to think it's a victimless crime, fine. You want to think you're actually helping them? Borderline delusional. You're not doing them any favors.
I take an interest in fakes because I don't like getting duped. I've had experience with the LV thing, so, yes, l know about the symbol placement. They also never cut the LV on a seam, and unless it's a continuous panel bag they'll never be upside down. And the stitching is always perfect down to the number of stitches on a tag. So, yea, I know.
And that is for a near perfect fake. Most fakes aren't that good. Fake Gucci, fake Coach especially.
I dunno. From my perspective I got the first one dead right and the second one I correctly doubted despite you putting two fakes up as a trick. Batting 2.5/3 even with deception is pretty damn good in my book.
You're supporting the industry that makes the fakes. That's how. Brand dilution. That's how. And, as I've seen, when the paint chips off the fake in flakes and it looks like crap, reputation. You may not let them handle your phone, but other people do. People can tell quality when you handle it.
You want to think it's a victimless crime, fine. You want to think you're actually helping them? Borderline delusional. You're not doing them any favors.
Me buying it? Yea, victimless crime. I'm doing nothing to cheat anyone. And don't give me the paint chip crap. I've seen the real deals get all dinged up too. It's all all a part of the wear and tear. Even Mercedes goes through paint chips and dings.
Diluting a market? Yea, because I run into people with these cases all day long. I have yet to spot a person in the Detroit area with one. I've met one dude up from this forum and that's about it. What world are you living in that the market is diluted with fake Element cases? Your argument would hold some salt if the saturation of these products were as bad as fashion item knock-offs.
When it comes down to it, you're just holding on very strong to principles. I have strong principles too when it comes to things like Wal-Mart. Not so much when it comes to an iPhone case.
Element is doing just fine and so are their employees. And as long as they keep churning out their quality cases, they won't be hurt. People aren't losing their jobs there.
As for Wal-Mart? There are thousands of employees living on crap wages working under poorly trained managers. They have no benefits because all of them are part-time. To get by, they spend their paychecks at the very store they work at so they can eat.
Again, I'm a realist. I'm not like you. And until you can prove to me that brands like Element are being hurt by this, it's just pure speculation on your part. Go ahead and ask me for proof about Wal-Mart. That would be easy.
So again, I sincerely commend you for standing your ground no matter what. I just don't live my life that way.
And don't call me delusional because I could say the same about you. You seem to live your life like everything is black and white.
I ordered a Vapor case a couple of years ago and paid $130. When I received it, i was NOT wow'd. I wasn't even giving that satisfaction that I just paid for something that is worth that much. They are definitely overpriced. I could have bought like 4 or 5 "counterfeit" cases with that money
Exactly, although I don't mind buying stuff made in the USA since it sometimes represents quality.
Funny you talk about price yet the high end android devices cost just as much as iPhones. Plus made in America means very little anymore, just look at moto x sales and you'll see.
Well after paying for my girlfriends fake boobs I only have money for a fake case.
That a nice and short answer