FBI Forensic Examiner Stephen Flatley Calls Apple 'Jerks' and 'Evil Geniuses' for Encrypting iPhones

[nt5672]

Government naturally corrupts itself. It's unfortunate, but natural. Government tends to attract people who love power. The only thing those types of people love more than power, is more power, and that's how we got where we are. Limited government is a great idea, but nearly impossible to maintain in the long run. Governments are formed, corrupt themselves, die, and are formed again. History has shown that cycle countless times. The only difference is how much time the various governments throughout history have needed to complete the cycle.

The other difference now, at least for the time being, is that the internet does not allow the government to control all information. The government is trying, and they almost had it with Net Neutrality laws. But fortunately, it was eventually defeated.

 

[phillipduran]

People should be able to have locked up privacy. More and more we are seeing things get compromised and leaked. If someone is breaking the law, then law enforcement will just need to find the way to catch people in the act instead of relying on unencrypting or brute forcing things.

People first. Law enforcement second. We did not creation this nation to provide for a more perfect police force. This nation is for the people. I don't care one bit if law enforcement is hard, it should be. I'd rather see criminals get away with crap than see everyone else suffer just to make law enforcements job easier.

 

[Scottsoapbox]

Coming from a LE family, I totally support the FBI in its life-or-death struggle with Trump.

Also coming from a family with historians and lawyerly members, I don’t, however, support the FBI on the encryption issue.

I don’t support this agents sentiments or comments.

I don’t care if better encryption makes his job harder. I hope it makes his job impossible. Only then will we know our devices are truly safe and along the lines of the 4th Amdt we can be truly secure in our new school possessions and papers.

LE?

 

[jonblatho]

The other difference now, at least for the time being, is that the internet does not allow the government to control all information. The government is trying, and they almost had it with Net Neutrality laws. But fortunately, it was eventually defeated.

I have a question.

What is net neutrality?

 

[NT1440]

LE?

Law enforcement.

 

[tridley68]

Hey Stephen R. Flatley at the Fumbling Bureau of idiots i and other have a right to our privacy stay strong Apple.

 

[brianvictor7]

I agree there is a concern about criminals getting a hold of personal information. However it seems that a large percentage of posters on this thread think that the evil government is lurking at their keyholes constantly looking in.
Frankly i am much more concerned with big companies gathering so much information about me and not having enough checks-and-balances to ensure that it is not used properly or worse; not be accurate.
[doublepost=1515696644][/doublepost]
The problem that law enforcement has with encryption as it currently being implemented is that they can not access the data even with a court order.

Which means they have to have the court order the company provider to unlock it, assuming there is a way to do it. Again, we don't want a back door to data. It will be exploited by hackers and by unscrupulous government agencies.

 

[apolloa]

I totally agree with Stephen Flatley on this. It is ridiculous the encryption methods employed, but it’s worst when Apple goes out of there way it seems in some cases to block any access to the devices, and / or refuse to help access the device in question.

 

[locoboi187]

This is what they want you to think. They of course have some 0-day exploit in their back pocket. And if its patched, I'm sure it won't be long until they either discover another 0-day or buy the 0-day.

 

[IbisDoc]

Nothing new here. By now, most of us know that current Apple leadership consists of a group of jerks.

 

[CrystalQuest76]

Just because you're not doing anything wrong doesn't mean you should want your whole life opened up.

You make very good argument. My solution to avoiding it being an open book is by not putting things into digital communication. I don't store the information on my devices. Those reasons along with not being a criminal are why i am not worried about law enforcement seeing my information.

 

[kemal]

Apple need to make the pause after 11 tries ramp up to days, weeks and months by the 20th try. And have the Secure Enclave store the attempt count in its RAM and on the NAND. If at any time there is a mismatch, wipe the data partition, not just the partition with the partial keys.

An angry Stephen Flatley is a good thing.

 

[DoctorTech]

The NSA, arguably the most technologically advanced intelligence agency in the world, can't even keep their "digital arsenal" out of the hands of hackers.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paular...ow-brokers-about-to-be-unmasked/#543c5f9c3936

But if Apple is forced to build a back door into hundreds of millions of iPhones and iPads, the FBI promises they will keep the key to the back door safe. All I want to know are the names of the FBI officials who will spend the rest of their lives in prison when the key to the back door is hacked? Yeah, I didn't think so.

When (not if) the key is leaked online and hundreds of millions of innocent people are put at the mercy of criminal hackers and identity thieves, not one single government official will take the blame, get fined or go to prison. NOBODY will be held legally responsible for the tremendous financial loss they will cause to innocent people by weakening today's encryption.

Keep fighting the good fight Apple.

 

[25ghosts]

So Apple is evil because FBI cannot easily crack a user's password.

That is like a thief whining over the difficulties in stealing.

Great stuff on Apple's side. Thumbs up !!!

 

[MistrSynistr]

Coming from a LE family, I totally support the FBI in its life-or-death struggle with Trump.

Also coming from a family with historians and lawyerly members, I don’t, however, support the FBI on the encryption issue.

I don’t support this agents sentiments or comments.

I don’t care if better encryption makes his job harder. I hope it makes his job impossible. Only then will we know our devices are truly safe and along the lines of the 4th Amdt we can be truly secure in our new school possessions and papers.

This post makes no sense. Does LE mean Law Enforcement? Then you support Trump, who supports LE and is fighting th corrupt crooks using the FBI for political power lol. Not the other way around.

 

[-BigMac-]

I guess this firms up how good Apple’s encryption is. It’s nice to have a little peace of mind knowing that.

Depends how you perceive the long standing FBI/Apple war.

This, and all previous "public appearances" regarding the lack of access for FBI into iOS devices could be a distraction from an actual backdoor which the FBI and NSA could have been using for years. Spectre anyone? Giving iOS consumers false comfort, while they mine your private data away. The governments may be corrupt, they might be intrusive, but at the end of the day - they arent dumb. They know what they are doing, and everything is done on purpose.

 

[scrapesleon]

Privacy my friend that’s why we buy Apple

 

[gr8tfly]

Well, he certainly sounds professional and all that, what with his diligent use of "jerk" and "evil geniuses".

 

[nt5672]

I have a question.

What is net neutrality?

My use referred to the Obama FCC rules that laid the groundwork for the FCC to arbitrarily regulate the internet in the future.

 

[shplock]

He's good at roping all of you in.

The truth is we've been selling the FBI and others tools since 2008 that allow simple investigation on iOS.

But keep thinking you're safe if it makes you feel good.

Except that those tools worked then, NOT now!
[doublepost=1515717042][/doublepost]

You have no idea the setup they and others have. It's FAR beyond what your typical hacker has access to. There's no comparison.

The FBI isn't full of themselves at all. Show me another group that has a system capable of cracking something like FileVault in under an hour. Please, enlighten us.

Yes the FBI ARE full of themselves. They said that Apple did not co-operate in the San Bernadino shootings. Yes they did. They said that they did not change the password to the account..yes they did. The FBI also said it was only about the iPhone 5c..then said oh wait, we have more iPhones we need unlocking. They kept apparently telling lies. They then eventually unlocked it only to find that it contained what every normal person said it would contain..which was...nothing!
For your info Hackers are intelligent, dynamic and forward thinking. They tend to be ahead of the curve. I mean wasn't it a Federal department that got HACKED a year or so ago. A department that kept details about federal employees including names and addresses etc.
So that does not scream that the FBI or other federal agencies are better than the hackers, more like the other way round
[doublepost=1515717184][/doublepost]

Some of those crime fighting techniques included getting warrants to open mail and tap traditional phone lines to listen in on the criminal conspiracies that were taking place. Since people have moved over to encrypted text messages those old techniques no longer work. Those law enforcement employees are asking for tools that will keep up with the changes in techniques that criminals are using.

The difference being that back in the old days the FBI(and law enforcement) would obtain warrants etc for people they knew or had solid reason to believe were criminals and conducting criminal enterprise.
Whereas today the FBI and others just want to snoop on everybody just in case some turn out to be criminals conducting criminal enterprise.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

Except that those tools worked then, NOT now!

Those tools work wonderfully now. In fact, they work even better than they did back in 2008, as they now have an additional 10 years development and we now store far more useful information on our devices.

If you don't have an intimate knowledge of the computer forensic industry (myself, I have over 10 years experience and have educated government agencies around the world), you might not want to make comments that only serve to show how little you know about the subject.

 

[shplock]

To say you're completely ignorant to the work the FBI does would be the understatement of the year. You seem to believe that though technology has changed the entire world, the FBI should still be operating as they did 30 years ago.

Here's a case they worked in which the use of technology to crack an iPhone was the key to saving a child and putting a very bad person in jail.

Some years ago, a 6 year old went missing in the southern United States. There was little in the way of evidence in the case and things went cold after a month or two. It likely would have gone unsolved if it wasn't for the FBI and their continued investigation on another case. They came across pictures of another child, which lead them to the suspect in question.

Most of the evidence in this case was digital. In your mind, they shouldn't even be bothering with it and would have left things as that, moved on to something else but thankfully they kept pushing. They secured a warrant and were able to gain access to the suspect's iOS device. What they found were hours of recordings. This guy didn't get off on the rape of the missing child but rather on listening to the recordings he made of those rapes.

With this evidence and more contained on that phone, along with further digital records obtained elsewhere, they were able to make an arrest, locate the child and return him to his parents 2 years after his abdication, and put this guy away for a very long time.

So when you say that they should go back to using "real crime fighting techniques" you're completely missing the fact that the entire world has gone digital and they're out there doing hard work that no other law enforcement agency is doing. They're putting away very bad people and helping to fix broken families.

You quote about the apparent case not withstanding it is you who is missing the point!
Firstly I agree that the world has changed and therefore the FBI and law enforcement needs to change as well. However what the FBI and others want is to snoop on everyone just in case a few people happen to actually be terrorists.
They show no targeted approach or any willingness to attempt to protect an individuals right to privacy.

No matter what you do in life, some bad people will always hide behind technology. That therefore does not mean that technology should be banned or altered in anyway that leaves innocent people vunerable to criminals.

Have you ever been under surveillance ? Had your every move watched and recorded, everything you do in your own home recorded and spied upon? Your texts intercepted?
All this despite the fact you are innocent of any crime and the only reason this is happening is because of corrupt law enforcement deciding to help their criminal paymasters because you were trying to get the same criminals held to account for their crime.

Those in power who would hold the keys of security can not be trusted to keep them safe. You seem to believe naively that they are 100% trustworthy. A year or so ago a Federal agency that looks after employees details of other federal agencies got hacked!!!! All the details of those employees from their names and addresses to social security numbers were obtained by the hackers.
Their security as lax and non existent. So that proves my point.
[doublepost=1515718322][/doublepost]

I don't have anything illegal in my house so i am not concerned if they saw what was lying around. i agree with others that i would not like the key to be acquired by criminals that would steal things from the house.
I do not live in a constant state of fear, nor do i have my home surrounded by cameras and visible alarm systems. Having lots of cameras and security around my house is just a signal to the criminals that there is something worth stealing. I grew up with neighbors on either side of my house that had fancy visible alarm systems and status symbol cars and they were constantly robbed. Our house was never touched.

You may not have anything in your house that is either illegal or worth stealing but many people do. Plus there are many things that you need to protect. Your identity, your banking, your work etc etc.
So you seem to be rather narrow in your thinking.
You think that the old addage is true that if you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about. WRONG!!!!!!!
It depends who decides what is wrong and I mean, the authorities can always be trusted right???
I mean they have never EVER abused their powers have they?????
I want to protect myself from threats, not just criminals but arrogant, power hungry corrupt authorities.
[doublepost=1515718493][/doublepost]

Prior to cell phones, criminals used traditional mail (that could be intercepted at the post office with a warrant) and landline phones that could be tapped. The criminals then knew that when they communicated, to do so face-to-face. Law enforcement at the time required snitches (or people like Donnie Brasco) that were in the rooms.
If we want law enforcement to protect us from the organized criminals and organized terrorists we must expect them to be able to keep up with what those bad people are doing. Otherwise, don't complain when you and your children are victimized.

Like i keep telling you people. The FBI and others just want to snoop on everyone just in case a few people turn out to actually be terrorists. In the old days they had to prove or show with reasonable assurance that the person or persons they wanted to target were doing something wrong. These days you only need to come from a largely Muslim country and the US president wants you banned from entering the US because you MIGHT be a terrorist.
[doublepost=1515718664][/doublepost]

It makes them like everyone else. They use the best tools available. Your company IT guys don't make their own firewalls or design their own networking equipment. Instead they go with someone that's far far better than they are at creating those things.
[doublepost=1515694413][/doublepost]

He is.

Source: worked in computer forensics for over 10 years and have worked with a lot of government agencies around the world, selling them many of the tools they use.

The best tools available..the only tools are the FBI themselves.
[doublepost=1515718820][/doublepost]

If you were the FBI and had easy access to iOS data, would it make more sense to tell people you could do so, or would it be better to lead them to believe that you couldn't access such data?

If you tell them you can access such data, they'll take every step they can to make it more difficult for you.
If you tell them you can't access such data, they'll think they're secure and do nothing to make it harder for you.

What does the FBI gain by publicly stating that iOS is preventing them from accessing data? It only serves to make them look incapable. That'd be a very dumb PR move. But if making that statement makes more stick with iOS and not bother increasing the security of their information, then the tradeoff of appearing incapable is well worth it.

You are assuming that the FBI are smart, well they are not.
They don't tend to think things through properly. I mean they are American after all and no offence but America elected Donald Trump, need I say more!

Plus your statement would suggest that Apple and other firms are idiots. They are very capable and would not take what the FBI said on face value. They would make sure their product is a secure as they want it to be.Regardless of who says what.

 

[shigzeo]

Stephen Flately flatly calls Apple...

 

[shplock]

Well said. By him saying this statement, he's telling terrorists and criminals to use iOS because we have our thumbs up where the sun don't shine. Now, all of the criminal and terrorist organizations know what to use.

Except that the criminals and terrorists already were using IOS etc. Plus if they are really paranoid(and most now are) they will not use ANY electronic device. They will use Moscow rules.

 

[shplock]

No it wasn't. A warrant is present in every single case when an electronic device is searched. Why do so many fail to understand that? They think the FBI is violating their rights by searching a phone. They aren't. They have a warrant granting them the right to do so. They have every right in this country to do so.

Yes but ONLY if that phone owner is suspected of committing a criminal act and in which case the POLice/FBI/etc would need to demonstrate that they either have proof or have good reason to suspect that person.
They can not just say "Well hey we suspect that maybe one day OldSchoolMacGuy might commit a crime or that he might be a terrorist, so let us have access to every area of his life. Lets start with his iPhone and keep digging until we find some dirt to justify why we did this".
[doublepost=1515719496][/doublepost]

As I said, if the FBI really can't crack iOS (which they can I can say for absolute fact as I've sold them the tech to do so since 2008), why would it be smart for them to tell criminals "Hey use iOS if you don't want us to be able to investigate you!", as you're suggesting.

If instead they have the ability to crack it (which they do), then lying and telling people "Oh it's totally secure, you should really use it cause it's secure and we can't get at your information." is a brilliant play. It makes people feel comfortable and complacent. It means they won't take additional steps to secure their data because they'll feel it's already safe, even if it's not.

Firstly the criminals are not all dumb and fall for such a basic ploy that came straight out of a Kojack episode.
Secondly any tools able to crack IOS in 2008 do not work now.
Period and no false claims you make change that. if you really can crack any iPhone then surely you were the person who unlocked the San Bernadino iPhone 5c?
NOpe, didn't think so.
If you say you are then I am Keyser Soze lol
[doublepost=1515719621][/doublepost]

My evidence is that since 2008, we've been selling the US government and other governments around the world computer forensic software to allow them to easily extract data from Macs and iOS devices. We've worked with Apple directly to sell it (along with Apple systems to run investigations) and helped numerous agencies with training and cases.

B***s**t!

The sort of tools you talk about DO NOT UNLOCK OR CRACK IOS! they merely offer basic data that is of no value at all in relation to data contained with apps that would be of use to the FBI and others etc.
Outdated and useless.
[doublepost=1515719767][/doublepost]

Oh in no way am I saying they're compromising your privacy. They have warrants and have every right granted by the justice system in the United States to do so. There's no right to privacy on the behalf of the person being investigated at that point.

Apple's government guys in Hermdon do assist the government frequently.

No. That is exactly what you are saying. That the FBI should have the right to investigate everyone just in case some people turn out to be terrorists.
That has been your main point all along.