agree that we have hit a wall here.
The only wall here is that your argument is entirely fallacious
agree that we have hit a wall here.
good ol' Macs fan control works with m4
You are working from a fundamental misunderstanding. All form factors that Apple sells, excepting possibly the Mac Pro M2 Ultra, will cause higher-end chips (Maxes, and some Pros) to "throttle" (terrible word, as I've written before, but it's what we've got). In fact, as a reductio ad absurdum, even baseline M chips are throttled by their cases' design, since none of those cases have liquid cooling, and even base M chips will run faster if so cooled.The important question at this point is why we were given a form factor where performance has to be sacrificed to achieve a lower noise level. I'll accept any answer but I don't think anyone can argue that it wasn't a choice that was made.
Can you confirm Macs Fan Control works with M4? I heard that it didn't work properly on Sequoia (and Sonoma starting in 14.7):
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Mac M3 Pro (Apple Chip) updated with macOS Sequoia 15.0 App not working now · Issue #776 · crystalidea/macs-fan-control
I was using Macs Fan Control for months without an issue. Yesterday I updated the operating system to Sequoia 15.0 and now the app doesn't turn on the fans at any configuration. Not with custom spe...github.com
Based on reports of it not working on system even after downgrading, I suspect the firmware updates bundled with the newer OS break Macs Fan Control.
That's a faulty assumption, and not in a minor way, for two main reasons:I'm assuming that if one were to achieve mimicking the fan/sound-profile of an m4Pro to be on-par with that of an m4, then there's no point in getting an m4pro (aside from folks wanting TB5 and faster read/writes to the SSD), as the benchmarks of the two would likely be on-par due to thermal throttling on the m4Pro.
As I explained above, you might not have to do that... but I think you've just identified an opportunity for an indie developer (no, not me): Make a fan speed tool that ramps down the fans when either:I guess you could define when you're by the m4Pro machine you want it to be silent with the fan control software, and when you step away and give it a crazy long export or render task, that would be useful (if you know you won't hear the noise), but I think this would be more of a hassle in the real-world than just buying the m4 base.
How do you know that the previous form factor wouldn't have the same result?
I've tested M2 Pro and it was silent.
M4 Pro is on N3E - more efficient etc. so it should behave the same if not better
You are just argumentative for the argument sake. Apple clearly showed us (even with Intel) that the physical size matters. The 2013 Mac Pro was perfect example. When you have small package you limit yourself to less options.
Regardless whether it's Intel or AS.
Sure, AS is way more efficient etc. which allows Apple to innovate more but it still generates heat so there is still a limit.
But sure, keep being pedantic about the unknown whilst ignoring the above because that is an easier path.
Let's put it this way, if The studio had M4 Pro, do you think it would produce the same noise or do you think the Form factor of the Studio allows for much better headroom? I think we both know the answer so please apply the same mentality with the Mini here because the same applies here - size does matter!
You are just argumentative for the argument sake. Apple clearly showed us (even with Intel) that the physical size matters. The 2013 Mac Pro was perfect example. When you have small package you limit yourself to less options.
Again, bad argument. The question isn't whether the Studio is better at cooling than the new mini - it obviously is. The question is whether the old Mini is better. You don't know, and so far nobody here does.Let's put it this way, if The studio had M4 Pro, do you think it would produce the same noise or do you think the Form factor of the Studio allows for much better headroom? I think we both know the answer so please apply the same mentality with the Mini here because the same applies here - size does matter!
It's really not... for most values of "markedly better". I mean, is the M4 markedly better than the M3? You're looking at at least that much improvement, though I'm way too lazy to put up some plausible numbers.Unless somebody benchmarks the internal temp of the box vs. fan speed / dB vs. computations performed, I think it’s equally a faulty assumption to say that the m4pro would have a markedly better performance if constrained to the inaudible fan speed of an m4.
Considering that that's 1-3 entire generations of CPU improvement, that's quite a lot.What that fraction of power each cores get against the net computations remains to be seen. Maybe it’s better by 10%. Maybe 50%. Who knows.
Sure. But that leaves open a big space for people who need more grunt than the M4, who don't like noise. Will the M4 Pro Mini work for them? Open question, and the answer will depend on the specifics of their workloads.My point was that to a consumer, if you want a universally quiet mac mini without fiddling with overriding fans and underutilizing / throttling down the cpu, the clear option seems to be the base m4 (unless you want Tb5 / faster SSD)
As far as I'm aware, every processing unit designer has taken full advantage of smaller manufacturing methods by packing more transistors in the same or even larger die size as well as pushing the frequency limits — nullifying the efficiency gain from at least one perspective.I've tested M2 Pro and it was silent.
M4 Pro is on N3E - more efficient etc. so it should behave the same if not better
It is also significantly more powerful from the m2 pro
it also has more cores
The m4 pro could very well require more cooling even in the same form factor
A quick look at some geekerwan numbers:M4 = 4P6E, M4P = 10P4E. Leaving the E cores out as being fairly insignificant (they are fewer, and use much less power), you're looking at running each P core of the Pro at only 40% of the power of the M4 P cores. (Yes, the uncore of the M4Pro will take some of that away, but not that much.) Does anyone have the performance/power curve for the M4 P cores handy?
No coole whine, a little bit of whistling from the fan during high rpm.It sounds like there is also a whistling sound. Is that from the fan or is it some kind of coil whine?
Sorry, but I already returned the Mac mini.@maluba27
Extremely useful! Asking for a lot, but is there any chance you can place your phone as a dB meter maybe 2 ft away and snap a screenshot of your results pre-fan and post-fan (as in your video)?
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Audio Spectrum Analyzer Pro
Audio Spectrum Analyzer is a powerful real-time audio analysis app. Full of features yet very simple to use. Sound level meter (db meter a-weighted, noise rating, noise criterion) included. Feature Highlights: • Octave Band Real Time Analyzer • FFT Plot (Fast Fourier Transform) • Linear...apps.apple.com
Max+Min, 2048FFT, linear
Yes, size does matter, but not the way you think. What matters MUCH more is the cooling capacity, which is in turn constrained by size, but not at all in a linear way.
Imagine that I removed the top of the M4 Pro Mini completely. Now the volume of the case has become the volume of the room I'm in. Do you think that that would help cool it significantly? Of course not. It would likely make the situation worse.
Nearly all of the cooling capacity comes from air being moved across hot surfaces....
So if you want to know if the old or new Minis are better at cooling, what you really need to know is how well they move air across the hot surfaces (which are the heat pipe and/or radiator surfaces). Honestly, I have no idea how they stack up that way, but so far nobody else has had anything meaningful to say about that either.
In a nutshell, the case size has much less of an effect on the cooling performance than the actual case design
You couldn't be more right. And due to a better designed cooler between the M4 and M4 pro, one being copper, a larger heatpipe and double the amount of fins (twice the surface area), then at exactly the same fan speed=airflow=cfm=noise, the cooler in the pro will remove much more heat because it is better designed to do so. Which in turn allows the processor to work harder without generating any extra noise.As you know, size matters because the larger a fan is, the more air it can move (at constant RPM). But that's not the only thing that matters, because good engineering (directing the airflow across radiating surfaces) is far more important. Really bad airflow can completely eliminate the benefit of a fan. Both ingredients are necessary.
No the main issue here is the effective cooling, so b), the case volume is not the issue. Like the example above where in an open room the system will perform much worse, if you moved the internals from the new small mini into the old larger mini, it would perform worse but not as bad as out in the open. Becasue it is the case and thermal design as a whole, not the case size that affects cooling performance. That and also the laws of thermal dynamics are kinda important.then a) we need more volume
b) we need more effective cooling
regardless - the volume is the issue here as old Mini didn't have this problem.
It’s clear that thermals weren’t Apple’s main concern when redesigning the enclosure. Looks like they just took the size of the existing M2 logic board (5" at it's widest) and basically design the smallest possible case around it. Even a slightly larger case, like 6”x2.5” instead of 5”x2” would’ve allowed a much larger, beefier cooling system needed for the Pro chips. But I guess that marketing was really going for a “wow” factor to create the smallest possible desktop machine here.
Why do you think those are "high temps"? Do you know what the expected/correct operating temperature range is for the M4?I am having the opposite issue M4 Mini base exporting video in compressor cannot hear the fan even at high temps.
Well put.The logic in this thread regarding the size of the device housing is not entirely comprehensible. Anyone who has ever assembled smaller (x86) computers knows that it is very difficult to impossible to assemble a really small mini-ITX PC with high-end components that is whisper quiet under load. At the latest when you put in an RTX 4090, the thing will take off during the next gaming session (unless you squeeze in a water cooling system, which then of course requires a larger case). However, if you choose a larger case which allows the assembly of e. g. bigger, slower fans and water cooling components, the noise levels can be whisper quiet even under load. However, to achive this you'll need more space, as the components required to quietly cool the system simply take up more room in the case. Of course, the Apple silicon is much more efficient than a x86 relic, but the chip will still produce some amount of heat under load.
The argument for more space is not about using the freed up air space for cooling by itself - of course that doesn't do much. Rather, with more space you can implement a larger cooling solution that is better in relation to the perceived noise level under load. For example, you could install more heat pipes or use larger fans to transport the air to cool the components. Small fans are usually louder than large fans when using the same airflow.
It seems that the M4 PRO is not an ideal match for the Mini case, as the waste heat produced under load cannot be dissipated in a good ratio of cooling capacity to the noise generated. The Mac Studio that implement the scenario described above show that larger cooling solutions allow for quieter operation under load, which require the use of larger housings.
If you're in group 2, it's an open question, but assuming it's going to be loud instead of testing it, lacking any relevant data, is just stupid.2: Someone who needs a powerful desktop computer - but mostly for the CPU, and who also value a good user experience and silent operation. A good example would be working with Logic Pro, using large projects (and needing 48-64gb of RAM for large sample libraries).
If you're in group 2, it's probably wise to wait for the new Mac Studio next year.
With SC2 via Rosetta, fans spin up pretty quickly. Noticable? No.