For now I am done with the Surface. iPad all the way!

[derekamoss]

Laugh all you want, Apple sells a desktop computer called Mac Mini which is slower than a SP4.

This!

I'm laughing at the image of your "mobile" Surface "docked" and hooked up to all those legacy wired peripherals, with its underpowered mobile processor in meltdown mode. Worst "desktop computer" out there, but so Versatile!



The Surface is all compromise, my friend.

I guess you are just unwilling to accept that the way you think isn't the way everyone else might think. If you do not think a Surface Pro can be desktop replacement then by all means, please get a desktop for that one usage. In my opinion the Surface does not compromise anything for my usage habits.

 

[Channan]

i think all the surface threads i have read at MR have some positive surrface reviews. Most of the surface negativity is as incoherent as this post. Mostly I think it is people who have not even used the product, and just want to echo anti-microsoft sentiment.

How was his post incoherent? He didn't say anything negative about the Surface. He was simply curious if people here only had bad things to say because they don't like Microsoft or if the try MS fans had a lot of complaints with it as well.

 

[TPadden]

I'd be totally interested in viewing favorable SP4 reviews in a Microsoft forum. if they exist. can anyone enlighten me?
All i hear is pure negativity, which in here is understandable, but there must be positively happy chappys in the SP4 camp as well. or are most of them sad as well with the device? I'd love to read the opposite side of the page out of pure curiosity.

completely not interested in a mac/win war, just want a different bias on things.

Very happy with my Surface, no war, I just don't use either my iPad or MBA much anymore. I like it so much even my Mac Mini boots to Win 10.

 

[Kostas3000]

I used a surface pro 3 as my main device for 6 months, I still own it, but now I use a rMB12in and an iPadPro12.9in as my main devices.

Weaknesses of SP3:
- annoying fan which was going on even with light use
- user interface was suboptimal
- the stylus had lag and was not anywhere close to the natural feeling of the pencil
- OS software updates, interrupting the workflow
- need to type a complex password to log in (it was both the computer and my microsoft password)
- the flexible keyboard made difficult to type when you hold it on your knees, vis s vis the keyboard of traditional laptops

Strengths
- all windows apps were available
- if you want (or only afford) a single device that does it all, Surface comes closer to that.

I found that the compromises I had to make with surface and the frustrating user interface were too much for me. As I said, I now use both a mac and an iOS device.

IMHO I see the following scenarios and I suggest the best device for each scenario

1) afford only one device AND need to do real work AND need the tablet functionality: Surface
2) no money issue AND need to do real work AND need the tablet functionality: MacBook and iPadPro
3) afford only one device AND need to do real work AND no need the tablet functionality: MacBook
4) afford only one device AND no need to do real work AND need the tablet functionality: iPad
5) afford only one device AND no need to do real work AND no need the tablet functionality: still iPad! (better overall computing experience on iPad)

I love the screen, the pencil, the user interface of iPadPro. But I still see software limitations when you attempt to do real work. By real work I basically mean:
- anything more than a very basic use of microsoft office applications

By the way I still find that selecting text on my iOS device a very annoying process, am I the only one?

 

[Beavix]

By the way I still find that selecting text on my iOS device a very annoying process, am I the only one?

Yeah, text selection can be a pain in iOS. It's much better on the Surface Pro 4.

 

[M. Gustave]

By real work I basically mean:
- anything more than a very basic use of microsoft office applications

I do a lot more than a "very basic use of microsoft office applications" every day on my iPad. So your premise is incorrect, and your knowledge of iOS and iPad is sorely lacking.

By the way I still find that selecting text on my iOS device a very annoying process, am I the only one?

Two-finger tap the onscreen keyboard for trackpad mode, or 3D Touch the keyboard on a 6s/7 iPhone. It's really not hard or inconvenient at all.

 

[TPadden]

I do a lot more than a "very basic use of microsoft office applications" every day on my iPad. So your premise and is incorrect, and knowledge of iOS and iPad sorely lacking.

Demonstrates why it's a waste of time to post anything more in depth than I posted: I like using my Surface more than my iPad and MBA .

 

[Beavix]

Microsoft never advertised the Surface WITHOUT the optional TypeCover keyboard. Microsoft knew that it was a sub-par tablet and so didn't try to sell it as a tablet-first device.

I've been using a SP4 exclusively in tablet mode since I got it on Wednesday. Whoever says this is not a tablet is simply wrong. The thing is if you want it to be a good tablet, you must treat it like a tablet and use touch optimized apps. Once you start using legacy apps the tablet experience breaks apart and it's not the fault of the device itself. However, I found that even the legacy apps can still be very usable even in tablet mode. I've been successfully using iTunes with my finger and that's a big thing because iTunes is one of the worst legacy apps on Windows, with tiny menus and controls and low resolution UI.

Honestly I can't find many things my iPad Pro does better (except how well iOS works with macOS and the rest of the Apple services, but that's by design). The Apple Pencil is better if you're an artist, it's like a real drawing instrument. The Surface Pen works more like a precise input device (while still really good for drawing and writing). The touch keyboard on Windows 10 is excellent. The handwriting recognition is pretty great. Sometimes when I have to use only one hand for writing it is easier to just write with the pen instead of poking with one or two fingers. On the iPad screen keyboard I love moving the cursor with two fingers like on a trackpad, it's very fast. Windows has left and right arrows for this purpose, they work fine for precise cursor movement (and the keyboard repeat rate is a little bit faster in Windows, which I like). I wasn't bothered by software updates, the system runs smooth and I didn't have the need to dig into settings to make it work. Windows logs me in by scanning my face which is awesome and faster than Touch ID.

Even though the iOS app ecosystem is more diverse, I found all the touch apps I need in Windows Store. The Facebook app is much better on the Surface compared with the iOS one, which still doesn't have a UI optimized for the 12.9" screen. I found great client apps for Twitter, Reddit and RSS. Even an awesome touch app for downloading torrents! Ebook readers, fully featured PDF viewers (like the excellent Drawboard), photo editing apps... it's all there.

 

[960design]

I'd be totally interested in viewing favorable SP4 reviews in a Microsoft forum. if they exist. can anyone enlighten me?
All i hear is pure negativity, which in here is understandable, but there must be positively happy chappys in the SP4 camp as well. or are most of them sad as well with the device? I'd love to read the opposite side of the page out of pure curiosity.

completely not interested in a mac/win war, just want a different bias on things.

We purchased several Surface Tablets and handed them out. All but one has been returned and traded for an iPad ( Air 2 ). The gentleman only uses the surface for email and light browsing, but he does prefer it to an iPad.

 

[Beavix]

We purchased several Surface Tablets and handed them out. All but one has been returned and traded for an iPad ( Air 2 ). The gentleman only uses the surface for email and light browsing, but he does prefer it to an iPad.

What do they do on their iPads?
Trading a Surface for a smaller tablet like the Air 2, it looks like they wanted something lighter and more portable.

 

[xraydoc]

I've been using a SP4 exclusively in tablet mode since I got it on Wednesday. Whoever says this is not a tablet is simply wrong. The thing is if you want it to be a good tablet, you must treat it like a tablet and use touch optimized apps. Once you start using legacy apps the tablet experience breaks apart and it's not the fault of the device itself. However, I found that even the legacy apps can still be very usable even in tablet mode. I've been successfully using iTunes with my finger and that's a big thing because iTunes is one of the worst legacy apps on Windows, with tiny menus and controls and low resolution UI.

Honestly I can't find many things my iPad Pro does better (except how well iOS works with macOS and the rest of the Apple services, but that's by design). The Apple Pencil is better if you're an artist, it's like a real drawing instrument. The Surface Pen works more like a precise input device (while still really good for drawing and writing). The touch keyboard on Windows 10 is excellent. I wasn't bothered by software updates, the system runs smooth and I didn't have the need to dig in settings to make it work. Windows logs me in by scanning my face which is awesome and faster than Touch ID.

Even though the iOS app ecosystem is more diverse, I found all the touch apps I need in Windows Store. The Facebook app is much better on the Surface compared with the iOS one, which still doesn't have a UI optimized for the 12.9" screen. I found great client apps for Twitter, Reddit and RSS. Even an awesome touch app for downloading torrents! Ebook readers, fully featured PDF viewers (like the excellent Drawboard), photo editing apps... it's all there.

I bought a SP3 when they first came out, back during the Win 8.1 days. I was really excited about the potential of a single do-it-all device. Bought the i5/8GB/256GB model with a type cover and the service plan for $1299 on an educational discount. Gave it a good go, but didn't live up to my expectations.

Battery life wasn't what I hoped. Not terrible, but never made it all day (I often take a lot of meetings). Found myself charging during the day, something I never needed to do with the iPad. And every time Microsoft pushed out an update, the fans would run full blast.

Apps like Drawboard were great and the OneNote "lite" was decent enough, but the touch-optimized EverNote was horrible. Even Microsoft's own apps like Office still don't have any touch optimization, always requiring me to pull out the type cover. MS's idea of touch-optimization was to separate the still-tiny button icons on the ribbon by a few extra millimeters so your finger could fit over one. That's not exactly what touch-optimized means. Perhaps it's gotten better over the last 18 months or so, but I was using either desktop versions or web-based versions of apps that I enjoyed on my iPad because the Windows App Store version were so awful or nonexistent. The update to Windows 10 didn't help much with the tablet side of things, though on the desktop it was an improvement from Win 8.1.

When the 12.9" iPad Pro came out, I put my SP3 down and switched to the iPad Pro.

Perhaps some of the touch-optimized apps have gotten better, but I don't see myself switching back. The fanless m3 SP4 would be the only model I'd consider at this point.

 

[rowspaxe]

I'm laughing at the image of your "mobile" Surface "docked" and hooked up to all those legacy wired peripherals, with its underpowered mobile processor in meltdown mode. Worst "desktop computer" out there, but so Versatile!

actually using surface i7 as a desktop is quite good for many applications. it runs adobe cc, maya, zbrrush, office and other deskop apps really well. With the new surface hub, all the desktop connections and power can be made via one magsafe connector. So its one magsafe connection to go from desktop to mobile--pretty awesome.
but hey, whatever, don't let facts get in the way

 

[Badrottie]

Don't get me wrong though the Surface 3 or Surface 4 Pro would be nice if it didn't have so many problems. Still it is heavier than a iPad even the iPad Pro I believe. Though like many people have said here the Surface is nice as a laptop replacement but not so much a tablet and I fully agree with that. When I had my Surface 3 the tablet apps sucked. Sure I did find a streaming video app to stream videos from my computer to my Surface over the local network and over the internet but on certain video files it crashed On Android and iOS the same app streamed those video files fine.

Though it still wasn't as good as AirVideo HD that is only on iOS but the one advantage of the app is it is available across all three platforms and it will allow you to stream audio and pictures too not just video. Though like I said the windows 10 app doesn't work with all video like the android and ios version does. I mainly keep the app for a backup. To bad it will never be updated on Windows 10.

Anyway enough about the app this thread was about the Surface and iPad. The biggest advantage of the iPad I see is no heat hardly and no fans with throttling like the Surface 4 Pro. Though I understand why the Surface 4 Pro needs a fan. I know the Surface 3 has no fan. Sorry for all my rambling but that is how I feel right now.

Look like you made Tim Cook proud of you.

 

[Beavix]

Even Microsoft's own apps like Office still don't have any touch optimization, always requiring me to pull out the type cover.

Nowadays the touch versions of the Office apps look and work exactly the same on both Windows 10 and iOS. The differences are minimal, if you like Word on iOS you'll find the same app in Windows Store if you don't want to use the big Office apps.

 

[rowspaxe]

Perhaps some of the touch-optimized apps have gotten better, but I don't see myself switching back. The fanless m3 SP4 would be the only model I'd consider at this point.

i think your comments are valid, i just want to make a respond a bit. First, full OneNote is massively better than the ios/metro lite version. Two, if you really value evernote--an apple centric product--windows will not work for you. Choices. If you want full photoshop, the ipad will not work for you. There is a windows touch version of flipboard--it seems the same as the ios app--but i really don't use it, so i don't know.

I think people totally underestimate the value of hybridization. If I want full office, its available to me. "But its not touch"?!!! So what? Its an application best used with a keyboard and mouse/trackpad. Same idea with all the heavy x86 apps. You want to video edit with your finger? i dont. Recasting complex x86 apps as touch apps is cumbersome and awkward.

Conversely, i really prefer use touch on some destop versions rather than ios style implemetations. Sorry, i dont like 2 inch brush/pencil icons sliding out from the side or bottom of a drawing app. I find the touch experience in x86 sketchbook pro so much better.

 

[xraydoc]

Nowadays the touch versions of the Office apps look and work exactly the same on both Windows 10 and iOS. The differences are minimal, if you like Word on iOS you'll find the same app in Windows Store if you don't want to use the big Office apps.

I didn't know that there were Windows Store versions? I presume they'll work with Office 365 licenses?
May have to check it out. At the moment, the SP3 is living in its docking station as an infrequently used desktop.

 

[Beavix]

I didn't know that there were Windows Store versions? I presume they'll work with Office 365 licenses?
May have to check it out. At the moment, the SP3 is living in its docking station as an infrequently used desktop.

Yes, they work with Office 365 accounts.

 

[rowspaxe]

It is pretty interesting to see that as time goes by the tablet user experience of the Surface is DECREASING. When they were first released, there were a few but slowly growing number of touch-optimized apps. But by the time the Pro 3 was released, Modern UI app development peaked and what was out was basically all that there would be.

While accept there may be more games or social media apps in ios, what are you really missing out on by having less touch centric apps? I can think of no app functionality that i am missing in windows. There are great ios apps--like procreate--but imo the windows equivalants like sketchbook pro and magna studio are really better. The whole app thing has lost momentum--its mostly gimmickware.

Microsoft never advertised the Surface WITHOUT the optional TypeCover keyboard. Microsoft knew that it was a sub-par tablet and so didn't try to sell it as a tablet-first device.

It is not a tablet first device--it is a hybrid. I use it as a tablet all the time. If you can't accept that its
a tablet call it a "slate". At first the MR response what "it to big to be a tablet!". Then the ipad pro came out and that rational disappeared. The surface pro 4 is a tenth of a pound heavier than the ipad pro.
The idea that MS advertises the surface with cover only proves that it is intended to be a hybrid. One could argue that fact that MS sells it without the cover proves it is a tablet first device. Most adults understand "sold separately"; its not that confusing
[doublepost=1480877748][/doublepost]

I found that the compromises I had to make with surface and the frustrating user interface were too much for me. As I said, I now use both a mac and an iOS device.
...

I love the screen, the pencil, the user interface of iPadPro. But I still see software limitations when you attempt to do real work. By real work I basically mean:
- anything more than a very basic use of microsoft office applications

By the way I still find that selecting text on my iOS device a very annoying process, am I the only one?

I think using a tablet as a complementary device is a good work flow, and certainly minimizes the weaknesses of the ipad pro. I often work on a tablet in front of my desktop screen--using both devices simultaneously. Its great for notetaking or drawing from reference. No physical connections and everything saves to the cloud--pretty awesome

Even in this thin client scenario I find the sp4 somewhat better than the ipad pro--but its close. I think once you understand how to use windows its a smoother workflow than ios...but that may be a hard sell. imo--the pencil advantages over sp4 pen are vastly overstated. I like the "idea" of the pencil--but whenever i play with it at the apple store i find the "feel" annoying. lag differences between the pens in similar software is minimal.

 

[rowspaxe]

How was his post incoherent? He didn't say anything negative about the Surface. He was simply curious if people here only had bad things to say because they don't like Microsoft or if the try MS fans had a lot of complaints with it as well.

op starts out by criticizing weight and lack of touch apps on surface than rambles on about some video app. He them returns to the subject of surface pro asserting that the sp4 has "fans with throttling" but that the sp3 had no fans (?) The first claim is dubious, the second clearly false. How is this coherent?

 

[Channan]

op starts out by criticizing weight and lack of touch apps on surface than rambles on about some video app. He them returns to the subject of surface pro asserting that the sp4 has "fans with throttling" but that the sp3 had no fans (?) The first claim is dubious, the second clearly false. How is this coherent?

sjleworthy is not OP.

 

[macbookhair]

I have both an iPad Pro and an SP4. I also have a MacBook Air.

For light consumption, with ultimate ease of use, the iPad Pro is best. You just pick it up, dive into the app you want, sit back and relax. Its lighter and easier to hold than the SP4 and with less going on in the OS, easier to get to grips with. The battery life is light years better than the SP4.

For everything else, the SP4 absolutely wipes the floor with the iPad. Its is considerably more powerful and can perform a far wider gamut of functions than the iPad. With careful configuration and app choice, it will elegantly switch between being a laptop and a tablet, with the latest version of Windows 10 offering a seamless experience that adapts well to the different use cases. It truly is the best of both worlds.

The MacBook Air remains a gorgeous device. Its original smoothness has been compromised by later versions of OSX and the screen is now dated but to me, it is still the ultimate laptop package.it just gets everything right and is a pleasure to use.

Sadly, progress is beginning to leave it behind and the SP4, running on the massively improved and really rather elegant Windows 10 manages to outdo it in most aspects of its capabilities.

So there you go. Against my better judgement, having been an Apple fanboy and a Microsoft hater for many years, my conclusion is the SP4 is the most flexible, innovative and productive device of the three.

 

[960design]

What do they do on their iPads?
Trading a Surface for a smaller tablet like the Air 2, it looks like they wanted something lighter and more portable.

Employee evaluation ( requires shadowing an employee for about an hour, writing a ton {about 10 type written pages} of notes, checking off on safety/security checks, ect ), email, research ( web ).
They needed something that would last at least 10 hours and be fairly light and quite. Cannot wait for boot or update interference.

 

[M. Gustave]

For light consumption, with ultimate ease of use, the iPad Pro is best.

Hahaha!! He doesn't just call the iPP a consumption device, he says it's for "light consumption"! LOL, like it's a struggle for the thing to even stream Netflix.

For everything else, the SP4 absolutely wipes the floor with the iPad.

Hyperbole, with no specifics.

 

[rowspaxe]

sjleworthy is not OP.

so what? You questioned my characterization of the originating post as incoherent and I responded to that. I earlier responded to sjleworthy call for positive surface reviews saying 1)that there were many on MR, and 2) the the op--like many surface critics at MR--seemed to arguing with little coherence or factual information. try to keep up!

 

[Channan]

so what? You questioned my characterization of the originating post as incoherent and I responded to that. I earlier responded to sjleworthy call for positive surface reviews saying 1)that there were many on MR, and 2) the the op--like many surface critics at MR--seemed to arguing with little coherence or factual information. try to keep up!

"So what"? You quoted someone and said his post is incoherent when it wasn't. Then I called you out on it and you started talking about a completely different post from a completely different person.

Looks like you're the one who can't keep up.