For now I am done with the Surface. iPad all the way!

[johngwheeler]

Interesting thread... I have a Surface 3, a iPad Pro 9.7 and a MBP 15 and often find myself "juggling" devices, deciding which is the best one or two to take for a particular task. It's generally a compromise between weight, power, portability and maybe most importantly, usability.

The MBP is the undoubted king when used at a desk for any lengthy task involving text input or desktop applications.

The iPad is my preferred mobile consumption device - light weight, fast with an intuitive user interface and a great selection of mobile apps.

The Surface 3 is bit of a "tweener" device. It's really not a very good tablet - it has a far inferior user experience (speed/ease of use) to the iPad. It is an "OK" small form-factor Windows laptop for occasions when I need to run a desktop OS but want a highly portable computer. I've found I hardly use the touch screen or pen these days, and always have the keyboard attached. The quad-core Atom CPU is just about acceptable in performance, but gives the impression of being much slower than the iPad on the same kinds of task.

The benefit of the Surface 3 over the iPad is that it is a "full computer", that I can plug into a monitor, mouse & keyboard, add external drives, SD cards and all the usual peripherals. I can run all Windows software on it, which makes it quite flexible. If I had an unlimited budget, I would look at the the rMB as a mobile computer solution (with Windows VMs or BootCamp), but would still want an iPad for mobile consumption.

Recently, I've been leaving my MBP 15 in the office overnight and continuing to work during my commute with the iPad; Sure, I can read my documents OK on the iPad, and I love the small size and weight for use on cramped public transport, but editing is a pain. I don't have a keyboard for the new iPad, but did use one for years with my iPad 2 and found it a worthwhile addition for text input, but using touch was less productive that a trackpad of mouse, and switching between apps (e.g. cut and paste) is a more clunky than on a desktop OS.

One poster suggested that Apple missed an opportunity to make the iPad a better productivity machine, and I tend to agree. If I could easily add an external screen, keyboard and pointing device to the iPad, and had some a more "computer-like" file system and multi-tasking OS, it would be an incredibly useful device that could replace the Surface 3 and similar ultra-portable laptops. The use of iOS is not a deal-breaker provided there is support for popular productivity apps like MS Office (which there is).

I still think there is room for innovation to create a truly usable hybrid device based on iOS/MacOS or some evolution of the two, and maybe Apple is the one who can crack this particular nut.

 

[rowspaxe]

For me it's the entire iPad system that trumps the Surface for use as a digital paper replacement.

I go back and fourth on the ipp. i agree ios is more transparent but i think if you have a good windows set up, that works well too. I see the pens as being largely equivalnt, but i seem to write better on the surface, but really like pencil with onenote. good insights

 

[jeremiah256]

For me it's the entire iPad system that trumps the Surface for use as a digital paper replacement. I've tried with the Surface for years, but everything is just kind of clunky, and I feel like I'm working around the UI and hardware rather than it working for me. My SP3 has become a laptop for me, which is fine. It's a good, lightweight laptop with a good keyboard and trackpad (on the latest version), a good screen, and (usually) reasonable battery life. But I virtually never use it as a tablet. My iPad Pro now fills that role and I do a ton of markup, note taking, reviewing of documents, etc. all from there. The interface largely just gets out of the way for me and I focus on just doing the work.

On the Surface, outside of OneNote, which is a great program in most ways, there are very few other choices of good note taking and annotation programs that are fully pen compatible. I have been using OneNote for a decade, but with the Surface Pen I just find that handwriting and drawing just isn't that accurate. There is always lag and an offset. The screen constantly pans and zooms as I use it. It's still a place I aggregate a lot of information in notebooks, but my note taking is generally done on the iPad (sometimes in OneNote).

Concur. I have a Surface 3 (bought partially because I love OneNote) and my experience taking notes on the iPad Pro is better. Fewer issues on the iPad with palm rejection. The apps situation is not optimal. Not totally Microsoft's fault (or at least not this new, Ballmer-less Microsoft) but I live in Google's ecosystem. No Google apps hurts the experience. The subpar 1PassWord, Asana, Slack, and faxing apps are also a problem. Can all these services be accessed via a browser and/or switching to desktop mode? Yes. But, again, I find the user experience lacking when compared to tablet apps that I use on Android and iOS devices.

 

[Kostas3000]

There's actually an entire series of free podcasts done by the guys from Macstories, dedicated to answering that very question. I highly recommend it.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/canvas/id1073124209?mt=2

you support my argument here

you refer us to 20 hours of audio about how we can do some basic productivity tasks on iPad.
It doesn't fit my definition of intuitive and user friendly....

 

[jeremiah256]

you support my argument here

you refer us to 20 hours of audio about how we can do some basic productivity tasks on iPad.
It doesn't fit my definition of intuitive and user friendly....

To be fair, the 20 hours covers more than just basic tasks. Right now they're doing a three part series on how to use Workflow, which is an extremely powerful and useful app.

 

[M. Gustave]

you support my argument here

you refer us to 20 hours of audio about how we can do some basic productivity tasks on iPad.
It doesn't fit my definition of intuitive and user friendly....

The show is for people to get more out of their iPad. It's focused on productivity apps and workflows. If that doesn't interest you, don't listen to it.

 

[Osty]

you support my argument here

you refer us to 20 hours of audio about how we can do some basic productivity tasks on iPad.
It doesn't fit my definition of intuitive and user friendly....

Gee whiz, @M. Gustave was throwing you a bone! It's a podcast not the special edition of the Lord of the Rings, dip into it as necessary and take what you need.

It's a good podcast and the hosts are pretty much on the bleeding edge of what's possible with iOS. They have certainly changed my opinion on what's possible with an iOS device.

 

[derekamoss]

I didn't get the macbook for the ecosystem, as much as I really like the trackpad. The device feels like an extension of myself when I sit it in my lap and scroll through a document. I've tried windows laptops, but using the trackpad to scroll felt like it stuttered and was frustrating. It's been over a year since I last tried one though, so perhaps they've improved.

If I found a windows two in one device whose trackpad was as good as my macbook and whose pen was as good as my iPad pro's, I'd take it. But, there are always trade offs. You pays your money, and you takes your choice.

P.S. I could put up with a less than top-notch trackpad in return for a two in one device. But the pen is crucial; I need my handwriting to look nice when lecturing for a class.

The trackpad experience is so much better now that MS has put OS level trackpad gestures and experience in.
The surface pro 4 type covers use a glass trackpad as apple. I wouldn't say its as good as an apple trackpad but the last few precision trackpad on windows hardware if used haven't been frustrating at all.

 

[Kostas3000]

The show is for people to get more out of their iPad. It's focused on productivity apps and workflows. If that doesn't interest you, don't listen to it.

if you need 20 hours of training to learn how to use word on ipad or other basic functions, then something is foundamentally wrong...

Again the point is not if it interests me, don't make it personal, the point is whether you can call the userface "intuitive". I guess you can't, is that right.

Next thing you will suggest is to watch 100 hours of video about how to open a webpage on browser

PS anyway thanks for the advice. I will start listening to the broadcast on my free time, by the time I listen to it all, I will go get the iPAD 15

 

[M. Gustave]

if you need 20 hours of training to learn how to use word on ipad or other basic functions, then something is foundamentally wrong...

Again the point is not if it interests me, don't make it personal, the point is whether you can call the userface "intuitive". I guess you can't, is that right.

Next thing you will suggest is to watch 100 hours of video about how to open a webpage on browser

PS anyway thanks for the advice. I will start listening to the broadcast on my free time, by the time I listen to it all, I will go get the iPAD 15

Congrats, you just made it to my ignore list.

 

[Kostas3000]

Congrats, you just made it to my ignore list.

I am very glad

it was really annoying having to reply out of courtesy to your comments
[doublepost=1481059477][/doublepost]

Congrats, you just made it to my ignore list.

by the way, is your comment a way to avoid answering the criticism to the ipad for its lack of intuitive workflows?

A new definition of intuitive workflows :
20 hours broadcast training to learn how to do basic functions that for any other platform you need 0 training

 

[derekamoss]

Congrats, you just made it to my ignore list.

Add me to please!

 

[Kostas3000]

Add me to please!

is your comment a way to avoid answering the criticism to the ipad for its lack of intuitive workflows?

if yes, you can do better than that

 

[rowspaxe]

I am very glad
by the way, is your comment a way to avoid answering the criticism to the ipad for its lack of intuitive workflows?

I think this needs to come down a notch but there is some legitimate frustration. M. Gustave and others endlessly comment on how the the surface pro lacks apps and how that restricts its usablility--or even makes it "not a tablet." I called M. Gustave on the issue and he responded with a link to a podcast about how to creatively achieve pc functionality on the ipad pro. But that is not the issue. Others have responded intelligently saying that they just like ios better, etc. Fine. But then don't tell me the lack of candyland crush makes the surface a non-tablet. Or alternatively, make the case what productivity users are missing without ios apps.

 

[M. Gustave]

I think this needs to come down a notch but there is some legitimate frustration. M. Gustave and others endlessly comment on how the the surface pro lacks apps and how that restricts its usablility--or even makes it "not a tablet."

I have never "endlessly commented" about the Windows app store. I mentioned it once, and I stand by my comments that to me the Apple App Store is superior in both quality of apps and variety.

And I've never said the Surface is "not a tablet". You seem to be confusing me with someone else. What I do think is that the Surface doesn't offer a great tablet experience. Windows just wasn't built for it, and no matter how much lipstick they put on it, it's still a pig.

What you're "missing" isn't some magical list of apps. It's the fact that iOS is built for touch, and so are its apps and the hardware, so the tablet experience is better because of it. I also like the fanless lighter design, wireless and cloud philosophy, and integration. YMMV.

If you're expecting me to sell you on iOS and iPad in a couple forum posts, that's silly. Do your own research and make an informed choice.

 

[bensisko]

I have never "endlessly commented" about the Windows app store. I mentioned it once, and I stand by my comments that to me the Apple App Store is superior in both quality of apps and variety.

There really is no arguing this point. If we're restricting Windows to JUST what's in the Microsoft Store, there's just no contest.

And I've never said the Surface is "not a tablet". You seem to be confusing me with someone else. What I do think is that the Surface doesn't offer a great tablet experience. Windows just wasn't built for it, and no matter how much lipstick they put on it, it's still a pig.

Windows 10 and Windows 8 were built for touch, but I agree that iOS is a better experience (though that's purely my opinion). I actually really liked Windows 8 and thought, with more development, it could be an even superior tablet experience than iOS (especially if they had just gotten rid of "classic" mode).

As it stands, Windows 10 is still a desktop OS that feels too bulky to be used in the nimble fashion I use my iPad. I'm not going to go into why (because people will either agree or disagree - I really don't think there's any reason to try and convince anyone), but I will say 8 felt closer.

If you're expecting me to sell you on iOS and iPad in a couple forum posts, that's silly. Do your own research and make an informed choice.

Extremely well said.

 

[derekamoss]

Windows 10 and Windows 8 were built for touch, but I agree that iOS is a better experience (though that's purely my opinion). I actually really liked Windows 8 and thought, with more development, it could be an even superior tablet experience than iOS (especially if they had just gotten rid of "classic" mode).

I agree, Windows 8 was a really good touch interface. When 10 came out it was a total step back. They should have left the 8 interface for touch and what's now the 10 interface if you go into desktop mode. They are slowly bringing it back but it is some what irritating when you know the touch interface was already there.

 

[Beavix]

On my Surface Pro 4 I like Windows 10 in tablet mode a lot. It works as well as iOS if you use only touch-friendly apps.

 

[derekamoss]

On my Surface Pro 4 I like Windows 10 in tablet mode a lot. It works as well as iOS if you use only touch-friendly apps.

Yeah its come a long way but Windows 8 UI was IMO better than iOS.

 

[iPadDad]

Hahaha!! He doesn't just call the iPP a consumption device, he says it's for "light consumption"! LOL, like it's a struggle for the thing to even stream Netflix.



Hyperbole, with no specifics.

I can't believe the Pooh I am reading! M. Gustave just ignore these guys who as you say, are just hell bent on bashing the iPad, it shows they don't understand the iPad, iOS or Apple's direction for the product.

 

[TrueBlou]

if you need 20 hours of training to learn how to use word on ipad or other basic functions, then something is foundamentally wrong...

Again the point is not if it interests me, don't make it personal, the point is whether you can call the userface "intuitive". I guess you can't, is that right.

Next thing you will suggest is to watch 100 hours of video about how to open a webpage on browser

PS anyway thanks for the advice. I will start listening to the broadcast on my free time, by the time I listen to it all, I will go get the iPAD 15

But not everyone needs hours upon hours of training or advice. No-one in my household does but even more surprising to me is my next door neighbor.

She is in her 70's and in the three years I've lived next door to her and her husband I've spent two of them fixing problems with or explaining things every other week for her Windows laptop and Android tablet.

The reason it's two is last year she decided, on her own I might add, to replace both of those with an iPad Air 2. In the past 11 months I've had to help her precisely twice. Once when her internet wasn't working (that was a quick one, neither was mine, they were working on the lines in our area) and once when her new printer wasn't working.

The big difference, not once for the iPad. She's managed everything from setting up to using it for all sorts of things including her church newsletter in Pages.

So I'm inclined to call that an improvement and certainly something that must be pretty intuitive.

The point is some people need a bit of advice and help, some people just like to read or listen to those kinds of advice podcasts or websites to see if there's anything they didn't know and some don't need them at all.

To define something as unintuitive based on the existence of advice topics is entirely short sighted. If that were the case then Windows, Android, macOS, iOS and every other operating system out there must be completely unintuitive. Because I see an endless supply of books, magazines, websites, podcasts and videos devoted to advice for each and every one of them.

Dear god I need coffee

 

[sracer]

Yeah its come a long way but Windows 8 UI was IMO better than iOS.

If you look at strictly the Modern UI of Win8 (and ignore the legacy desktop component), I generally agree but I find both to be lacking. I find the Modern UI to have too much whitespace inherent in its design, often resulting in too little content on the screen. One pet peeve I have with iOS is the inconsistency of the location of app settings. Some settings in an app they are in a pulldown but other settings for the same app are located in iOS "Settings".

Changing the name mid-stream from Metro to Modern didn't help. I liked how Microsoft ping-ponged UI elements between Zune, XBox, and into Windows Phone and Windows 8. I think that live tiles is a brilliant next generation step beyond widgets and icons. In many senses, merging the two concepts.

The introduction of the Modern UI in Win8 was a bold but premature move by Microsoft. They should've waited until they had a critical mass of Modern UI apps available... including their own Office suite, and should've built in intelligent UI switching depending upon the presence of a hardware keyboard/mouse.

But as is typical of Microsoft in the consumer space (except for the XBox), Microsoft does not have the determination to stick with something and see it through until success. They typically back off and back down, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

They immediately started to back away from their vision of the Modern UI by tweaking it in Win 8.1 to slowly move back toward a more traditional desktop UI. Then in Win 10 embedding the live tiles into the desktop's start menu... very goofy.

 

[rowspaxe]

Then in Win 10 embedding the live tiles into the desktop's start menu... very goofy.

except in tablet mode. oops.

i have never found a use for live tiles and regard it as a gimmick. i think MS thought the flipping tiles would lend a sense of liveliness to the ui. it does to an extent, but no extra information is conveyed.

in windows 8.x, the "legacy" desktop is child of the modern ui. in windows 10 tablet mode, the metro ui is--in a sense--the child of the desktop space. the upshot is that modern apps can now exist in partial screen windows on the desktop. there is some logical choherence to this, but it is undermined by the fact that in windows 10 the modern ui is largely graphically indestinguishable from the desktop. this is potentially very confusing to users

so while i believe in hybridization, i view windows 10 as another failure. despite its logical shortcomings, it is surprising usable and easy to customise

 

[bensisko]

except in tablet mode. oops.

i have never found a use for live tiles and regard it as a gimmick. i think MS thought the flipping tiles would lend a sense of liveliness to the ui. it does to an extent, but no extra information is conveyed.

in windows 8.x, the "legacy" desktop is child of the modern ui. in windows 10 tablet mode, the metro ui is--in a sense--the child of the desktop space. the upshot is that modern apps can now exist in partial screen windows on the desktop. there is some logical choherence to this, but it is undermined by the fact that in windows 10 the modern ui is largely graphically indestinguishable from the desktop. this is potentially very confusing to users

so while i believe in hybridization, i view windows 10 as another failure. despite its logical shortcomings, it is surprising usable and easy to customise

Personally, I think Windows 10 is what Windows 8 should have been, and Windows 8 as the progression.

One of the things that I really like about Windows 10 vs. 8 is that apps (even older apps) inherit the Windows 10 UI elements - so even though it's running as a "classic" application, it still feels comfortable (in that I'm not running a separate environment) and feels like it 'fits' Windows 10. The Windows 8 method was SO jarring - launching a classic environment and removing me from Metro.

Modern UI (they should have stuck with Metro) apps and an evolution of Windows 8 UI is where I would like them to go... for tablets. My Surface Pro 3 is in Tablet Mode all the time (yet it still feels like a laptop). I understand (and agree) Windows 8 was NOT a good place for laptops/desktops.

If you look at strictly the Modern UI of Win8 (and ignore the legacy desktop component), I generally agree but I find both to be lacking. I find the Modern UI to have too much whitespace inherent in its design, often resulting in too little content on the screen. One pet peeve I have with iOS is the inconsistency of the location of app settings. Some settings in an app they are in a pulldown but other settings for the same app are located in iOS "Settings".

Changing the name mid-stream from Metro to Modern didn't help. I liked how Microsoft ping-ponged UI elements between Zune, XBox, and into Windows Phone and Windows 8. I think that live tiles is a brilliant next generation step beyond widgets and icons. In many senses, merging the two concepts.

The introduction of the Modern UI in Win8 was a bold but premature move by Microsoft. They should've waited until they had a critical mass of Modern UI apps available... including their own Office suite, and should've built in intelligent UI switching depending upon the presence of a hardware keyboard/mouse.

But as is typical of Microsoft in the consumer space (except for the XBox), Microsoft does not have the determination to stick with something and see it through until success. They typically back off and back down, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

They immediately started to back away from their vision of the Modern UI by tweaking it in Win 8.1 to slowly move back toward a more traditional desktop UI. Then in Win 10 embedding the live tiles into the desktop's start menu... very goofy.

You're absolutely right about Microsoft not being brave. I was amazed at the bold move in Windows 8... and disappointed by the backpeddle of Windows 10. My thought was "great - now microsoft is never going to try something new in terms of UI ever again because people NEED their Start Menu."

I actually like some of Microsoft's UI choices in recent years - even Windows 10 has some good UI Elements - there's just too much "desktop" in it.

 

[Andy847]

I had the exact same disappointments with the SP 3 and SP 4. The tablet would get so hot on me, very hard to hold when it's hot. Also the Fans as the OP said. Distractingly loud. My other problem was some of my art apps would crash. I had the I3 processor on the SP3, then Microsoft gave me a good price on the SP 4 I5 processor. Same problems on both. I really wanted to like it too.

As the OP said, my problem was it wasn't a good tablet. Since nothing else from Android had a Pen and was not old technology, I went for the Ipad Pro. I'm very happy with it. Otherwise if I wasn't not much out there except the Wacoms and at that moment, was looking for a tablet that I wouldn't be tethered to my Mac. I do have a graphics tablet monitor now, but I still prefer the portability of the Ipad Pro. It's the only Tablet option out there now with the Capability of a stylus for Drawing.