Former Shake Product Designer: Apple Doesn't Care About Pro Market

[oldwatery]

It's simple and the writing is on the wall for the old stuck in the ways pro's... NOt even Larry Jordan complains or is whining this much (if at all)... Just move on then, or think different my friend

Old stuck in the way pros!
Go think different yourself....some of us have a living to earn and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in our businesses.
While I don't expect or care if you give a damn you could at least acknowledge that there is another side to this coin.

 

[DTphonehome]

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Apple really should spin off their pro division. Let then maintain a close working relationship with Apple, Inc., but they can design their own software, Mac Pros, Xserves, etc. Clearly Apple Consumer Electronics are no longer interested in the Pro market. Which is fine, they should just acknowledge reality and allow pros to get the tools they need elsewhere.

 

[iDisk]

I always thought that a Pro was someone that got paid for what they do. I've made my living and supported my family editing video since 1999. I've never used XML, multicam, and realize I can finish my edits in FCP 7 and start new ones in FCPX.

Are there "pros" that are more capable than me. I'm sure there are. Do people need what FCPX doesn't offer. I'm sure there are - but I'm not one of them. Here's to the future of FCPX and to all the money I'm going to make with it.

We need more, with you type of attitude ... you clearly understand and prove my point about people making things work who are "Pros"

 

[mdriftmeyer]

So when all the updates come and people stop complaining about FCSX will MacRumors fall on their own sword and apologize for all the power Apple has added to this new vision?

I doubt it.

I find it ironic that the guy who whines about Shake makes such broad strokes about professional software when dozens of Apple Engineers spent considerable lengths of time over at PIXAR developing nothing but world class professional software for PIXAR's needs.

Sorry, but in reality there aren't tens of thousands of brilliant people in the world sitting on their hands waiting to be asked to develop software.

Apple is running 24/7 with dozens upon dozens of cutting edge projects and this guy clearly has no plans of ever asking to work around such an environment again, because I can guarantee you he just burned all his bridges with such claims.

Let’s talk economics first. There’s what, maybe 10,000 ‘high-end’ editors in the world? That’s probably being generous. But the number of people who would buy a powerful editing package that’s more cost-effective and easier to learn/use than anything else that’s out there? More. Lots more. So, a $1000 high-end product vs. a $300 product for a market that’s at least an order of magnitude larger. Clearly makes sense, even though I’d claim that the dollars involved are really just a drop in the bucket either way for Apple.

Really? 10,000? Try 100.

 

[scottsjack]

It is so entertaining to read the number of posts from Apple apologists even in a thread of less than two pages. Just damned entertaining in that Steve could have put a big "******* You Pros" banner on apple.com and the fanboys would still be advising us to wait just a few months because they haven't been abandoned. Ha!

As I've written elsewhere on MacRumors Forums working pros who think that Apple really cares about them need to see the light and move on. It's all about really good prosumer stuff and, of course, iToys.

FCP X is to iMovie what Aperture 3 is to iPhoto, a super-duper, 64-bit version that works faster, does more and has a lot more options. If you outgrow the basic one the really good version is available at a reasonable price.

That said FCP X doesn't look bad to me at all. My next Canon SLR body change will shoot 1080p video and X looks like the perfect way for me to get "professional enough for my use" results that goes beyond iMovie.

 

[sined13]

...The professional market is a small percentage of Apple's bottom line overall customer base, but I'd say they come close to making up a majority of their high-end hardware sales.

I wonder if this in turn signals a future departure by Apple from MacPro towers altogether.

Fully agree with you on this one. The days of the MacPro is coming to an end -- I'm referring to actual professional-level hardware, not "power consumer" machines.

Here's an interesting tidbit from a filmmaker (from 2010):

http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/

 

[acslater017]

Been feeling that since they ditched matte screens in 2007. Lion just reiterates his point by making OSX more "consumery".

I can foresee many professional creatives migrating back to windows within the next year or two once it's painfully obvious (and somehow it isn't yet) that Apple has moved on quite some time ago.

I totally disagree with those who describe Lion as "dumbing down" or whatever. But I can't defend Final Cut Pro X's REMOVAL of features.

Lion adds Launchpad, but it doesn't take away other methods of launching apps. The Mac App Store is a great idea, but they don't prohibit you from installing apps through other means. Same for everything in Lion - there are new ways to do things, but it is 99% optional or IN ADDITION to pre-existing features.

Final Cut Pro X actually REMOVES features that were present in Final Cut 7. That's what I can't defend. I'm not against change, and I'm not against making things easier to use. I love most of the UI changes and new tools in FCPX. Some things simply require an open mind. But I absolutely can't defend the REMOVAL of features from the previous version. This is the same thing that they did in QuickTime X...

Most of the things they removed require far less UI/polish then the magnetic timeline, range-based keywording, etc. I have no idea what the little (yet important) things were left out...

 

[nuckinfutz]

You just don't even understand what others are pissed about.
It's not a new way of working or some such thing.
It's all about not being able to do jobs at all because of the lack of basic tools and interfaces.
It's one thing to have to learn a new way to do something but completely another not being able to connect my HD or camera to my computer and get the data in there.

No oldwatery I undertand. I know that many of you cannot do you jobs in FCPX right now because you're under the demand of clients that simply MUSTS have their audio done in Pro Tools or their compositing done in Flame.

You guys deal in a cliquish industry where it matters what application environment is used regardless if whether that translates into a superior product in the end or not.

So knowing this ...it's easy to see why OMF/AAF, EDL and other connecting technologies are a must. Laying to tape is big too.

I suppose FCPX will deliver on most of these missing technologies where it makes sense. EOL'ing FCS was an interesting and aggressive move.

Good news is Larry Jordan was told that the point release schedule for FCPX will be perhaps semi annual with substantive updates. Expect fast evolution...that's the raison d'être of Cocoa.

Cheers

 

[soLoredd]

I always thought that a Pro was someone that got paid for what they do. I've made my living and supported my family editing video since 1999. I've never used XML, multicam, and realize I can finish my edits in FCP 7 and start new ones in FCPX.

Are there "pros" that are more capable than me. I'm sure there are. Do people need what FCPX doesn't offer. I'm sure there are - but I'm not one of them. Here's to the future of FCPX and to all the money I'm going to make with it.

I think the whole "pro" thing has gotten out of hand, really. Apple clearly is all about targeting the consumer/pro-sumer market and, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. I can understand the frustration because folks have entrenched themselves into the Apple world and have built entire workflows based on their software. But, I think the folks complaining are being naive into thinking Apple will always support them or remain committed to them.

I'd also take this guy's opinion with a grain of salt. It's easy to come out now and make comments like this because that is the overlying sentiment. But why didn't he come forth a year, two years, or five years ago?

 

[Rustus Maximus]

Gotta love these kinds of posters.

He did go back and read the article and actually thought differently™ about some things, cut iDisk some slack . At least he made the effort to educate himself. Most will just charge into the verbal fray regardless, the sword of "Personal Insult" (be sure to use quotes around whatever you're making fun of for extra sting) swinging wildy, and fanboy flavored kool-aid (now available in the app store in new lemon flavor, check the FCP X page for full details) spraying from their mouths with every syllable.

 

[mambodancer]

It was a very interesting read. But unless you are planning to be a professional editor, I don't think you'll run up against the limitations of FCP X.

arn

This is also inline with what Alex Lindsay of Pixel Corp said. This application is designed for the 10's or 100's of thousands of professional video editors. Not the top 1000 or 10000 or so.

 

[dawnrazor]

Time for AVID to jump in with a kick ass solution and we never have to deal with FCP again, oh wait - that's not going to happen now is it... Hmmm, apparently Premier is very good

 

[arn]

I'd also take this guy's opinion with a grain of salt. It's easy to come out now and make comments like this because that is the overlying sentiment. But why didn't he come forth a year, two years, or five years ago?

He was working at Apple 5 years ago.

arn

 

[iDisk]

LETS ALL CALM DOWN PLEASE .... geezzzz

I always thought that a Pro was someone that got paid for what they do. I've made my living and supported my family editing video since 1999. I've never used XML, multicam, and realize I can finish my edits in FCP 7 and start new ones in FCPX.

Are there "pros" that are more capable than me. I'm sure there are. Do people need what FCPX doesn't offer. I'm sure there are - but I'm not one of them. Here's to the future of FCPX and to all the money I'm going to make with it.

So do you always completely ignore the points someone makes when debating a topic or do you like to spin nonsense adnausem?

I, and many others, are fine with the new direction of Final Cut and aren't afraid to learn it BUT if you took 5 seconds to pull your head out, and actually read comments, you'd know the real issue many have is the END OF LIFE OF FINAL CUT PRO/STUDIO.

Right now if a studio needs to add a seat they cannot purchase a legal copy of the older version to keep the ball rolling until Apple decides to actually add the features it cut for apparently no reason.

Reading + Comprehension = Your friends.

I'm sure Apple clearly told many that if your working on FCP7 edits, finish that and start fresh with FCPX. Also if you have FCP7 then stick with it until you feel FCPX is ready for your work flow

There's being a blind fanboy and there's ignorance.

You keep picking ignorance.

It's pretty laughable that somebody who has never edited video in his life telling others how to do their job. What do you do for a living? Should we tell you how to do it?

I work in digital forensics. I doubt you can help me. I do edit movies btw... What was ignorant btw??

Old stuck in the way pros!
Go think different yourself....some of us have a living to earn and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in our businesses.
While I don't expect or care if you give a damn you could at least acknowledge that there is another side to this coin.

There is another side to the coin, and the poster "swissman" whom I have his quote at the top shows that other side of the "Pro" market.... A bad business decision then is to rely on a company who doesn't view your market the way you do.... Apple knows what their doing with FCPX, just sit on FCP7 until you feel the need (if ever) to up grade... But Apple is moving the bar forward and higher in my opinion.

 

[akac]

This is probably one of the worst posts i've seen on this board.

Editors have a job to do, that is to make a target video look a certain way...

No amount of "thinking different" is going to add features or capabilities that the software doesn't have.

Terrible post from somebody who clearly has never edited video before.

Except that a good majority of the complaints about missing features are features that actually exist, but in a different way. So yes you have to think differently because the software deals with edits/video/audio differently.

I.e. to get to the same path, you have to use the software differently - a way that Steve and the rest believe are better.

 

[nuckinfutz]

Final Cut Pro X actually REMOVES features that were present in Final Cut 7. That's what I can't defend. I'm not against change, and I'm not against making things easier to use. I love most of the UI changes and new tools in FCPX. Some things simply require an open mind. But I absolutely can't defend the REMOVAL of features from the previous version. This is the same thing that they did in QuickTime X...

You can't remove features if they were never there. FC7 is the last in a line of 32-bit only Quicktime based apps. FCPX is the ground floor of 64-bit AV Foundation based software. Every feature that FC7 had needed to be rewritten to support AV Foundation and other API. There is a disconnect between editors that thought FC7 was just a recompile away from 64-bit and Apple which said "we're deprecating Quicktime 32-Bit and Carbon 64 is dead" they did this what a couple years ago? The writing was on the wall...a vastly different Final Cut Pro was coming.

In rewriting an app it affords the opportunity to look at features and improved them during the process (like XML support) and knowing Apple they have a lot of stuff that simply didn't make the 1.0 revision that on the way.

 

[jmille44]

I'm thrilled

I was one of those who yelled so loud about the killing of imovie with plugin support back in the day. I was kicked off maccentral forums for slamming the editor who said the new imovie was great even though it left behind all my plugins and themes I had purchased. I told him he was a fool, got the life time ban for it.

Now I am thrilled about the new FCP X. This is what iMovie was going to be and with Motion, you can make your own themes. Love it.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

Arn lol I didn't read the article, to be honest, I just saw another FCX headline, and just ranted on....

Wouldn't you agree that the "Pros" should just innovate with the tools they have? meaning just give FCPX a shoot, starting from scratch... I think the pro market needs to THINK DIFFERENT this time around, Not Apple.

The pros do innovate with the tools they have, but one thing you obviously need to understand is that software is just a tool. Your software does not drive your innovation, your ideas so. But software can become a hindrance to your ideas, especially if it no longer provides the basic functions needed to complete your goals.

 

[soLoredd]

Fully agree with you on this one. The days of the MacPro is coming to an end -- I'm referring to actual professional-level hardware, not "power consumer" machines.

Here's an interesting tidbit from a filmmaker (from 2010):

http://brookwillard.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/the-state-of-apples-professional-line/

This guy saw the writing on the wall well over a year ago. Great blogpost and should be read by everyone who continues to believe Apple is somehow in love with the pro market.

 

[akac]

Sounds about right. This only reaffirms my choice to go back to the PC and pick up the Adobe suit.

Then seriously what are you doing here? I feel sorry for anyone "going back to the PC". My gosh, I have so many people I work with that stay on PCs for some strange reason and even with the latest AntiVirus, latest Win7, etc.. they still constantly get viruses, constantly have to waste time maintaining their system rather than using it.

Just yesterday I had to deal with a new install of software on a PC and it reminded me why I love my Macs. Beyond the fact that the software exists on the Mac that I need (everything from Office to Adobe to many Mac only software), it just lets me do my thing without wasting my time.

 

[slrandall]

We need more, with you type of attitude ... you clearly understand and prove my point about people making things work who are "Pros"

The problem is that there are professionals who need the features that this guy can get away without using.

Although I'm sure Apple is very pleased with this release of FCP [probably not the press, though] - because honestly, it is a huge upgrade: 64-bit, very intuitive interface, extremely fast - I think it's too early to tell if they're moving away from the professional market in this area. They may simply be providing a new framework in which they will once again be the predominant application for video editing. As for them discontinuing FCS 3, while it does suck for production companies, it's simply Apple pushing its new product and pushing it hard, the way Apple always does.

But it's far too early to say that Apple is moving away from the professional market. They've clearly released a product that, while extraordinary in many ways that aren't really being acknowledged, isn't enough for the most high-end professionals. But to do so while working on OS X Lion, iOS 5, the iCloud framework, and Xcode 4 [all huge releases this year] is still impressive.

Yes, FCP X needs work. And to you professionals who now have no tools from Apple to do what you could a week ago, I'm sorry. But let's not immediately say that this is the end, "iToys" are the company's future, and they don't care about any sort of high-end professional. This is the company that created the App Stores, spawned hundreds of new software firms, and gave thousands of developers the tools they needed to create amazing things.

So while FCP may not be ready yet - with apologies yet again to those few [very few, I don't know how this forum is so full of them] who needed something better immediately, or at least not a sudden recall of the old - it will probably innovate in and expand the market in years to come. The framework is done. Just watch what happens.

 

[*LTD*]

Except that a good majority of the complaints about missing features are features that actually exist, but in a different way.

You sure about that?

Shouldn't "it just works" = "it just works obviously"?

Because that's what characterizes Apple's other products.

If it's a better way, I'm sure the Pros would happily learn to adjust. But if these critical features are somehow hidden or function completely unintuitively, then we've got a problem.

If Apple is moving toward the prosumer market, then that's fine. More power to them. It's a wicked smart move. But it would be nice if they didn't pass this off as Pro-level software when the Pros themselves don't really want it. The problem is not with the software. FCPX is probably terrific. The problem lies in how Apple is targeting this.

Or It could be we're just taking it the wrong way and in a year the Pros will say "Apple really did know best!" That tends to happen with Applemas well. Just look at the iPad. But these top editors seem like a less-flexible bunch, for obvious reasons.

 

[akac]

You just don't even understand what others are pissed about.
It's not a new way of working or some such thing.
It's all about not being able to do jobs at all because of the lack of basic tools and interfaces.
It's one thing to have to learn a new way to do something but completely another not being able to connect my HD or camera to my computer and get the data in there.

Yes it is. Don't you get that FCPX is not FCP 7 + new UI/features? No its a brand new app that will take time to grow. Hopefully not too long. The mistake Apple made was not making FCPX. The mistake they made was that they didn't continue to sell FCP7 alongside FCPX so that they could position FCP7 as what you'd use if you need features X,Y, Z and need to continue working on old projects and FCPX would be the future.

Then they'd continue working on FCPX and get multi-cam and the other features that it needs to be a fully Pro app. But don't expect FCPX to import FCP7 projects. It very well may at some point, but I doubt it. Sometimes when you rethink an entire product suite trying to import data is just not going to work.

 

[iDisk]

The pros do innovate with the tools they have, but one thing you obviously need to understand is that software is just a tool. Your software does not drive your innovation, your ideas so. But software can become a hindrance to your ideas, especially if it no longer provides the basic functions needed to complete your goals.

ideas should always be bigger then your tools... imagine if the person who invented the wheel gave up, because he didn't have the right "tool" or how about the first airplane with the wright brothers, ideas trump all that my friend......


also here's a quote from the shake guy about how apple views the pros..

And really, from a company perspective high-end customers are a pain in the ass. Before Apple bought Shake, customer feedback drove about 90% of the features we’d put into the product. But that’s not how Apple rolls – for them a high end customers are high-bandwidth in terms of the attention they require relative to the revenue they return. After the acquisition I remember sitting in a roomful of Hollywood VFX pros where Steve told everybody point-blank that we/Apple were going to focus on giving them powerful tools that were far more cost-effective than what they were accustomed to… but that the relationship between them and Apple wasn’t going to be something where they’d be driving product direction anymore. Didn’t go over particularly well, incidentally, but I don’t think that concerned Steve overmuch…

 

[SirHaakon]

Unless you are planning to be a professional editor, I don't think you'll run up against the limitations of FCP X.

arn

I'm sorry, I was under the impression the software was called Final Cut "Pro."