found loophole: 1st gen iphone plan while using 3g iphone

[mkoesel]

I never had data nor was ever required to pay for a data plan. Given it was not a "data or smartphone"

Ok again, noted. So let me more specific then. For the group of devices which AT&T classifies as data-or-smartphones, and which are designed primarily as 3G devices, is the data plan not $30 across the board? This has been my understanding for some time now. Am I wrong?

Now you ask why does At&t "require" the data plan or say it cannot be removed from the iPhone?

I think this is simple:

At&t is paying A LOT of money for the exclusivety of the iPhone and they have to make up for this somehow.

The some truth in there I'm sure. Nevertheless, it has been emphasized many times by blogs and news sites, since the announcement of the 3G iPhone dataplan pricing that in fact the $30 charge is no more than other 3G phones. To me, it seems like - especially with the addition of VVM - they could easily charge more for it. My point here is that if the iPhone is really costing AT&T so much more than any other 3G smartphone, then why is it no more in monthly costs than those other phones for me, the end user?

 

[ec51]

if the iPhone is really costing AT&T so much more than any other 3G smartphone, then why is it no more in monthly costs than those other phones for me, the end user?

I personally do not think the iPhone 3G is really costing At&t so much more, SERVICE wise. If that was true, then they should be charging ever MORE for the iPhone 3G compared to the Blackberry Data (both $30/month, one 3G/one not). I think At&t being "required" to sell the phone at Apple's directed subsidized pricing and since they weren't making as much as before they had to make up for it some how.

I also really do not think it costs more to provide for the 3G v. 1st Gen, other than the exclusivety...the first iPhone was a chance for At&t, I mean everyone ASSUMED it would do well but no one really knew for sure. So how does At&t make sure they would sell a lot of 1st Gen iPhones and lock a bunch of new contracts? Lower the data charges and entice customers by creating a new data plan ($20 including 200 SMS - get yours now!!). Now they saw the awesome success of the 1st Gen, At&t now thinks, "okay no more special treatment, we know it will sell and we are going to up the price to be in-line with our other data phones."

 

[Surely]

This thread has veered way off topic. I will join you on your detour, as the detour is slightly more interesting than the OT.

The iPhone is a subsidized phone- this is a fact. This means that the $199/$299 is considered a down-payment, and the rest of the cost of the phone is paid monthly throughout your contract.

Please keep in mind that the monthly rate increase from $20 to $30 also removes 200 text messages from the price, as they were included in the original $20/month charge (unlimited data and 200 texts for $20/month). Now you are required to pay an additional $5 for those 200 texts.

Yes, it is possible that 3G costs more than EDGE for AT&T to operate, but part of that $30/month is a subsidy that goes towards the full price of the iPhone. Maybe it's only $5 out of the $10 price raise. Maybe more. Maybe less. But be assured, part of that $10 difference is going towards the cost of the iPhone.

 

[marksman]

What you refer to, you read too far into. What they are refering to are your MediaNet services which are only suppose to be used on "non-smartphones" or your ExpressMail and Smartphone Connect packages which are suppose to only be used on Windows Mobile phones.

Nonetheless, find me where it says you are REQUIRED to pay $30/month for the "3G data plan" for the 3G iPhone versus the $20 plan for the 1st Gen iPhone EXPLICITLY and I will believe you.

I didn't read too far into it. It says data plans are tied to phones and you are not allowed to use data plans for other devices.

That is pretty clear and applies directly to trying to use a V1 iPhone plan with a device not designed to be used with it, which would be the 3G iPhone.

It doesn't have to specifically spell out every possible phone combination.

 

[elistan]

Hate to burst your bubble, but the very first paragraph of their media data terms says specifically that plans are tied to devices and you may not use them with other devices.

http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/messaging-internet/media-legal-notices.jsp

It says:



Now that we have that cleared up, we now have a thread that is either encouraging people to break the law or at best encouraging people to breach their legal contract with AT&T. In either case I think this thread has outlived any usefulness to be on MacRumors.

No worries, that's great information. However, when AT&T says "type of device" don't they mean the difference between, saw, a PDA and a smart-phone? Because they have different sorts of plans for those different sorts of devices. For example, AT&T current offer five types of plans - two BlackBerry specific plans, one DataConnect plan (for laptops) and two PDA plans. (The iPhone plans are not mentioned on the data plan webpage.) No where does AT&T differentiate between EDGE and 3G devices. So again, by AT&T's own wording, I don't think the specifically prohibit using a first-gen iPhone SIM in a 3G iPhone.

 

[thechidz]

To answer your question...YES! When I bought my last Razr, I forget what it was called the ...V3xxxx or something...it was 3G. I never had data nor was ever required to pay for a data plan. Given it was not a "data or smartphone" - nonetheless I was connecting to 3G and able to use at&t's Media Mall and whatnot.

We know that At&t classifies their smartphones in a different group as other regular phones, but at the same time...I was using my Blackberry for a VERY long time with no data plan and no problem whatsoever. I would remove it and add it as I needed and at&t was always very helpful.

Now you ask why does At&t "require" the data plan or say it cannot be removed from the iPhone?

I think this is simple:

At&t is paying A LOT of money for the exclusivety of the iPhone and they have to make up for this somehow.

hmmm... I think I can actually hear the sound of the world's smallest fiddle... playing just for little ole att

 

[mobilehavoc]

Ok again, noted. So let me more specific then. For the group of devices which AT&T classifies as data-or-smartphones, and which are designed primarily as 3G devices, is the data plan not $30 across the board? This has been my understanding for some time now. Am I wrong?



The some truth in there I'm sure. Nevertheless, it has been emphasized many times by blogs and news sites, since the announcement of the 3G iPhone dataplan pricing that in fact the $30 charge is no more than other 3G phones. To me, it seems like - especially with the addition of VVM - they could easily charge more for it. My point here is that if the iPhone is really costing AT&T so much more than any other 3G smartphone, then why is it no more in monthly costs than those other phones for me, the end user?

So am I still wrong now? Funny how your tone has changed after several other people have basically said the same thing I've said all along.

You can buy any phone today that supports 3G and use it on AT&T's 3G network with unlimited data for $15/mo.

AT&T has historically had 3 different data plan classes...which are smartphone, PDA and BB.
Smartphones are usually Windows Mobile type devices without a touchscreen,etc. and the data for those has usually been $20/mo (like iPhone v1).
PDA devices are things that have touchscreens and are more power-user type mobiles which usually cost $30-$40/mo for data.
BB devices are obviously Blackberry devices which cost from $30-$45 a month with $30 for personal and $45 for corporate (similar to iPhone 3G).

However what you are not understanding at all is with the BB monthly cost you are getting provisioning to Blackberry's network and Blackberry's BIS server for push email. On the corporate side, you get provisioned for Blackberry's BES connectivity for corporate email. So you are paying more for more functionality/features.

For PDAs, you pay more but connect via a separate APN called isp.cingular as opposed to wap.cingular. What does this do? It assigns you a internet facing IP address so you can receive incoming traffic, run server side software on the device, more serious networking stuff.

Having said all that, the iPhone 3G $30/mo data plan IS NO different than the iPhone $20/mo plan. You still get unlimited data (3G or not), you LOSE 200 SMS and you still get visual voicemail. They both use the wap.cingular APN which assigns IPs internal to AT&T's network behind a firewall - not accessible via internet. You don't get anything extra from a technical or functional perspective for your $10+ more a month.

Following that logic, if you don't care about Visual Voicemail, you could use the $15/mo MediaNet plan on an iPhone or iPhone 3G and it will work PERFECTLY with full 3G as well. The $15/mo Medianet plan will NOT work on a Blackberry device so it's not an option. It can work on Smartphone and PDA devices, depending on what you want to do, and many people do this.

So to wrap it up, AT&T is charging iPhone users $10+ more a month for data for no other reason than to recoup their subsidy in the iPhone. If they could provide the same service for $20 or less to iPhone v1 and every 3G capable
handset (except BBs) then why is the iPhone 3G any different?!?!

 

[mkoesel]

So am I still wrong now? Funny how your tone has changed after several other people have basically said the same thing I've said all along.

Let's get something clear right up front: my tone was never anything other than polite, while yours was blatantly rude. I guess you'll agree your original reply to me was way out of line then, yes?

Was I wrong about the price? Yep. Its because I was not being specific enough. As you can see in the coorespondence above as well as other that followed, I honed down my question a bit to be more specific to 3G devices that are specifically designed as internet devices. Using your words:

"PDA devices are things that have touchscreens and are more power-user type mobiles which usually cost $30-$40/mo for data."

Ok great. So it sounds like an iPhone fits the bill to me. Don't you agree? Maybe AT&T has just simply decided to call the iPhone what it really is?

Are there 3G devices sold by AT&T that don't have this $30 plan? Sure. Are there 3G (or even 2G) devices that are touchscreen, internet-centric devices with a push email that don't use this plan (other than the grandfathered original iPhone)? I don't know - you tell me. Are there? If there are then, yeah, sure, I'll agree the iPhone price hike is purely marketing. If not, then I say the change from $20 to $30 is to move the new iPhone into line with other devices that are similar in functionality.

So to wrap it up, AT&T is charging iPhone users $10+ more a month for data for no other reason than to recoup their subsidy in the iPhone. If they could provide the same service for $20 or less to iPhone v1 and every 3G capable handset (except BBs) then why is the iPhone 3G any different?!?!

It still doesn't cover the fact that you can get the iPhone data plan removed from your account. If AT&T want to build the data plan into iPhone 3G pricing, then they could have just created a rate plan that included voice and data in one sum with no way to decouple them.

 

[Sobe]

I have two iPhones, one is the first generation with a GoPhone monthly plan ($29 + $20 data plan) and my 3G iPhone with it's normal 3G plan.

I can take the GoPhone sim and put it in the 3G iPhone and still get 3G service on the GoPhone plan.

The only difference is that with a 3G iPhone activation, AT&T is getting all this extra money out if us when in truth, the 3G service is available anyways and all you need is a 3G phone to get 3G service regardless of what plan you are on.

3G service is available anyways?

Is it like coal or oil just waiting to be discovered by a plucky explorer with a 3G phone?

Of course the 3G service is available anyways. What do you expect them to do, build the network after you buy the phone?

 

[ballen420]

I'm usually a searcher of threads to find my answer, but I don't have time to wade through all these ethical posts.

Lets just say I happened to lose my SIM that came with my 3G iPhone, and decided to put in my trusty old leftover SIM from my 1st gen iPhone, would I get my 3G data for $20 a month?

Let's also say I don't look at the itemization of my bill, and just pay what I consider to be a reasonable charge for my monthly services.

I consider myself still in good graces with the big guy if this works.

 

[elistan]

I'm usually a searcher of threads to find my answer, but I don't have time to wade through all these ethical posts.

Lets just say I happened to lose my SIM that came with my 3G iPhone, and decided to put in my trusty old leftover SIM from my 1st gen iPhone, would I get my 3G data for $20 a month?

Let's also say I don't look at the itemization of my bill, and just pay what I consider to be a reasonable charge for my monthly services.

I consider myself still in good graces with the big guy if this works.

I am not a lawyer and you should decide for yourself, but based on MY reading of AT&T's policies, MY OPINION is that there is no prohibition whatsoever on using a first-gen iPhone SIM linked to the $20/mo plan in a 3G iPhone. Nor in a 3G Tilt, 3G BlackJack, 3G Palm, nor any other 3G smartphone.

 

[And5555]

I'm usually a searcher of threads to find my answer, but I don't have time to wade through all these ethical posts.

Lets just say I happened to lose my SIM that came with my 3G iPhone, and decided to put in my trusty old leftover SIM from my 1st gen iPhone, would I get my 3G data for $20 a month?

Let's also say I don't look at the itemization of my bill, and just pay what I consider to be a reasonable charge for my monthly services.

I consider myself still in good graces with the big guy if this works.

If you accidentally lost your SIM and wanted to use your old SIM card, you would need to re-activate your old SIM; note that whenever you activated your new SIM, your old SIM was turned off of the network.

 

[jt2ga65]

AT&T has sold 3G phones with just a plain old "data" plan for q few year now, while most of their network still have no 3G service. That didn't mean that you now have to sign up for 3G to be able to use it on your 3G phone if they happened to turn up 3G in our area. It just works.

I've used my SIM in my RAZR when my iPhone was in for repair, and I used it in my mother's new 3G phone, since she turned off the data plan. Both works fine, and I never got any grief from AT&T about the 3G data on the iPhone plan. I also suspect that there are going to be a whole lot of 3G iPhones that can't get 3G service in their area, and are in fact using Edge network. Does this mean that AT&T is going to reduce their service by $15 a month? I would seriously doubt it.

The only reason to go with the new phone is likely to be the GPS. 3G is nice if you are near a big city, but most of the nation is without it.

Anyone whining about "stealing" either has too much money, or has idea about business negotiations. Everyone, business, personal, etc, has the right to negotiate the best deal for their situation. This is why some people can get a $20K car for $15K. Is it unfair to those that have to pay $20K? Not really, as life just isn't always fair, and the way our economic system is designed allows for it.

Those that don't like people working the system to their advantage can go stand in line for bread in the Soviet Union... Oh wait, that system proved to not work so well and doesn't exist there any more.

-jt2

 

[dccorona]

No I checked myself and I'm being billed for a 1st gen iphone plan.

DO NOT USE 3G!!!
if your paying for a plan that only includes EDGE, then you don't gwt unlimited 3G

so they get to charge you per KB transfered (or whatever they charge by)
it adds up FAST
your bill will be hundreds of dollars

 

[Denny Crane]

What are you, 12?? You obviously don't understand that saving $10 a month is saving you $120 a year. This could be my rent money. Anything I have to do to save a buck or two, count me in. Nothing wrong with saving money. Guess mommy and daddy buy you everything, correct?

But you aren't saving a buck or two when you do this....you are stealing a buck or two. My integrity is worth more than $120 a year.

 

[rywat]

DO NOT USE 3G!!!
if your paying for a plan that only includes EDGE, then you don't gwt unlimited 3G

so they get to charge you per KB transfered (or whatever they charge by)
it adds up FAST
your bill will be hundreds of dollars

I don't think this is true. I'd love to be proven wrong though with some kind of official documentation from at&t.

 

[ec51]

DO NOT USE 3G!!!
if your paying for a plan that only includes EDGE, then you don't gwt unlimited 3G

so they get to charge you per KB transfered (or whatever they charge by)
it adds up FAST
your bill will be hundreds of dollars

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahaa

 

[hexonxonx]

DO NOT USE 3G!!!
if your paying for a plan that only includes EDGE, then you don't gwt unlimited 3G

so they get to charge you per KB transfered (or whatever they charge by)
it adds up FAST
your bill will be hundreds of dollars

Wrong. You can still use 3G on a regular iPhone data plan. As others keep pointing out, all you need for 3G service is a 3G phone. AT&T is charging us the extra $10 for the 3G data plan because that is the only way we can get a 3G iPhone out the door.

 

[lavrishevo]

If I needed to do a firmware restore or upgrade will the phone try to update itself back the the original plan during activation?

 

[thechidz]

If I needed to do a firmware restore or upgrade will the phone try to update itself back the the original plan during activation?

on your 3g phone? yes i would think so. i would wait until an unlock becomes available

 

[jt2ga65]

But you aren't saving a buck or two when you do this....you are stealing a buck or two. My integrity is worth more than $120 a year.

It's not stealing. The police will not be breaking down the door to put you in jail. What we are talking here, AT MOST, is breach of contract. They can take you to civil court, and they can file for damages, if they wish. More than likely, they would just add amount to your bill and the ask you to pay.

I find it highly unlikely that AT&T is going to hire someone to go over every phone bill to check out every to see if someone is using a 3G phone on their original iPhone bill. I don't remember seeing any clause in the service agreement that I accepted when I signed up for iPhone service that said that I could not use 3G service on my account. I have done in on a spare phone before when my iPhone was in for service, and AT&T never said a word.

If you don't want to do this, then don't. I'm sure that AT&T will be more than happy to to take your money. If you want to do it, then do it. I'm sure that AT&T will still be happy to take your money.

I have foundation sponsorship, so my service is discounted, but I'm only allowed to expense part of my service, and another $15 is just another $15 that is out of my own pocket for a work phone. It's not that I couldn't afford the $180, it's the principle. There is nothing better about this plan, AT&T is just charging more for he same features.

-jt2

 

[thechidz]

If you don't want to do this, then don't. I'm sure that AT&T will be more than happy to to take your money. If you want to do it, then do it. I'm sure that AT&T will still be happy to take your money.


-jt2

haha touche. done and done

 

[thechidz]

I just restored my 1st generation iPhone because I sold my 3G. I decided to do this because really the only thing I liked better about the 3G phone was the 2.0 software.

after restore I got a message saying "your activation requires additional time to complete" Is this the standard message you are getting when you restore your original iPhone with your 3G sim and you choose the $20 iPhone data plan? How long does it take them to activate it?

 

[MICHAELSD]

I think that you're the first to use a 3G SIM and try to reactivate. If you paid the subsidized pricing, you're stuck on the $30 data plan for the next two years.

 

[checkers]

3G iPhone - old $

For what it's worth, I upgraded from a 1st generation iPhone to the 3G, paying the subsidized price. While my contract was extended 2 years from the date of purchase, my plan remained the same; I have not been charged the rates of a new customer or new iPhone user, which I was told was the defining line.