Full Laptop Refresh By Holidays?

[shadowx]

To add fuel to the fire...

Intel announced their big Core 2 Duo notebook campaign AND of all companies, Lenovo (IBM - usually slow to move on to a new chip) announced the Core 2 Duo for the N100... another sub-$1000 machine. Apple isn't behind yet, but they will be soon... seems there are plenty of chips available to me

Has anyone else noticed that the first machines announced by the major PC manufacturers (well, at least Dell, HP/Compaq, Gateway, Lenovo) seem to be notebooks targeted at consumers (mostly sub-$1000 machines with a few gaming machines thrown in for good measure)? Sure, the higher-end "business class " machines have followed fairly quickly, but I really hope this is not a trend Apple follows (Macbook first)!

 

[Andrew F]

Relax, it is now clear that Apple will announce that redesigned C2D MBPs will be shipping by the time of its press conference on Sept. 25, just prior to Photokina (there is no way Apple called a press event just to announce a minor update of Aperture). If there was no redesign, Apple would have announced them by today. The redesign will include a number of improvements, including an easily swappable HD, and if some rumors are correct, dual layer DVD writer. I suspect that battery life will also be improved.

I really hope you are right. I really want a laptop. I don't need one, so I am willing to wait. It's just that waiting is getting old. I really hope that there are many improvements and design changes because the case is dated and it would be nice to now distiguish between older Macs and the new Intel Macs.

 

[Maccus Aurelius]

Merom supplies were very limited initially. They're still not as plentiful as vendors might like, but the situation is improving.

That's the sole reason I expect Apple to not relese both C2D MBP and MacBook at the same time. Well, that and maybe they feel they can create more of an impact by having two product announcements instead of one.

it's pretty safe to assume that just putting C2D in any macbook would make the same impact regardless of how many announcements there are.

 

[ergle2]

I did say that those were the only differences that CONSUMERS would notice AT THIS TIME...

Benchmarks to date have shown remarkably few differences (yes, there is a slight advantage to the C2D, but not enough that most ppl would notice). And 64 bit support is pretty limited right now. Just because a CPU supports 64 bit extensions does not mean that the rest of the hardware and the software do. Yes, it will make a difference in the future, but I was referring to the present.

I believe you actually said the "practical difference", which is a term that is somewhat open to interpretation. I chose to consider it as more from a software point of view. I consider both perfectly valid interpretations.

However. 64bit matters because it's gonna be in sales ads regardless of the reality, and because Microsoft's gonna push it bigtime come Vista -- and this Holiday Season is going to see a huge "Vista Compatible" push. It's in the future, sure, but in the product's early lifetime.

Multitasking should also be smoother by dint of the doubling of L2, something that is rarely noted in benchmarks.

One benchmark noted a significant improvement in battery life -- something consumers would notice.

As far as speed goes, I suspect that a significant number of consumers probably wouldn't see a lot of difference in otherwise-equivalent systems clocked at 1GHz vs 2GHz... for most people, what kills their system performance is they don't have enough RAM.

 

[ergle2]

it's pretty safe to assume that just putting C2D in any macbook would make the same impact regardless of how many announcements there are.

I disagree. Two separate announcements - one per system - over time gets you twice as many reports in the press, basically.

Otherwise it's a single story with a headline reads "MBP, MacBook go C2D".

The other aspect is where you announce. I've known a few pro photographers and they all seemed to have PowerBooks. Hence Photokina makes sense.

They may want to run the MacBook C2D launch piggybacked off a different type of event.

Tho' this is all a secondary reason -- my best bet for reasons for a split launch is supply issues and perhaps product differenciation.

 

[mrwombat]

Some good thoughts here on all sides, but I do think some folks are still missing the point. For potential switchers (like myself) it's not about tech specs, it's about perception. On the Windows side we have choices, lots of choices. I can configure a C2D notebook with any number of options in any number of configurations right now. Some of these may be good, some not so good; some may be comparable to the MBP, some may not be. But they're there.

In the Apple universe, there is no real choice. That's fine in most respects, as the tradeoffs (better OS, stability, quality, applications, usability) make up for it. When the universes were separate, it didn't matter what happened in the PC world really. Now that the Intel wormhole connects the two, though, perceptions are different. Some of us can't help but make comparisons. And even if we don't need a new notebook right this second, many of us want to get one between now and the near future. And we want to make the switch to apple, but our perception is that to buy now is to buy into something that will very shortly not be Apple's core CPU technology.

That's really what it's about, not wanting to spend a lot of money on tech that while still extremely capable (and I agree, I'm sure I'll notice not one whit of difference between a Yonah and a Merom MBP in daily use for the most part) is nevertheless not the new baseline. It's about feeling you're making a good purchase. Give me a new MBP with Merom at today's price, fine. Give me a Yonah for several hundred less, fine. Either way, I win. Buying today's MBP at today's price though, for those that can wait, does not seem smart.

 

[Lebowski]

Yeah. I keep on thinking of going for a Thinkpad, but every time I think to how hooked I am on OS X, I can't do it. But I refuse to pay good money for now "outdated" hardware in a flagship notebook computer line. Ridiculous.

just what kind of work are you doing that the current line is so "outdated?"


i swear this board is so full of cry babies, youd think it was the sesame street forums.

i do very heavy final cut studio work, on my NON INTEL QUAD (oh my god, i cant believe it even RUNS, its a whole 9 months old...) and on my 1.33 powerbook (which is 3+ years old, and still handles FCP fine like wine).


i hope i was never this bad about wasting money with apple just to keep up with the Jones'

 

[generik]

I disagree. Two separate announcements - one per system - over time gets you twice as many reports in the press, basically.

Otherwise it's a single story with a headline reads "MBP, MacBook go C2D".

The other aspect is where you announce. I've known a few pro photographers and they all seemed to have PowerBooks. Hence Photokina makes sense.

They may want to run the MacBook C2D launch piggybacked off a different type of event.

Tho' this is all a secondary reason -- my best bet for reasons for a split launch is supply issues and perhaps product differenciation.

Depends on the press, it is like a press release saying that Boeing released a new line of jumbo jets 10 years after Airbus has done so...

It is not news, it is olds. Been there done that.

 

[HecubusPro]

It's ridiculous to say that Apple is ridiculously behind. Dell has only been shipping C2D laptops for 1 week, and only in limited quantities. The main difference consumers will see today between CD and C2D is moderately better vector performance. Period. Yes, C2D can support 64 bit operations, but can the motherboards and OSs these machines use support 64 bit operations?

Relax, it is now clear that Apple will announce that redesigned C2D MBPs will be shipping by the time of its press conference on Sept. 25, just prior to Photokina (there is no way Apple called a press event just to announce a minor update of Aperture). If there was no redesign, Apple would have announced them by today. The redesign will include a number of improvements, including an easily swappable HD, and if some rumors are correct, dual layer DVD writer. I suspect that battery life will also be improved.

The appleinsider article threw me for a loop though concerning a relative understanding as to the the launch of the new system. Despite that, I am with you on Photokina as the launch pad for the new C2D MBP's.

Besides that and Aperture though, I can see an update to the iSight being released, as well as possible new Cinema Displays. It will be interesting regardless.

 

[generik]

Well to give Apple some credit it is not like the flagship Thinkpad T60 has switched to C2D either, just speced out one in the store and got to admit the pricing is very good on the Thinkpad though...

 

[Maccus Aurelius]

just what kind of work are you doing that the current line is so "outdated?"


i swear this board is so full of cry babies, youd think it was the sesame street forums.

i do very heavy final cut studio work, on my NON INTEL QUAD (oh my god, i cant believe it even RUNS, its a whole 9 months old...) and on my 1.33 powerbook (which is 3+ years old, and still handles FCP fine like wine).


i hope i was never this bad about wasting money with apple just to keep up with the Jones'

I agree. I'm sticking with my blackbook, and it will be running OS X Leopard on it. I'll try to make it last for at least 3 years, and i wont replace it unless it dies completely.

This outdated stuff is a bit exaggerated, because i'll bet that no one in this forum gets any truly significant benefit from the core 2 duo, other than being able to say that its the current chip. sure, its a little faster. has a better L2 cache. does this does that slices dices etc etc. but really...so? imagine, in the not too distant future, people are screaming that their laptops dont have core 4 quads or something. as long as technology exists, people will always gripe about it when they are in no way affected by the presence of next generation technology.

my uncle, who works for an ad firm happens to own a G4 quicksilver. it still moves like a hot knife through butter and it handles any task he throws at it. its faster than my blackbook. its such an awesome machine, but its deemed obsolete by the more anal computer disciples, so its inferior technology despite being a rock solid device.

 

[n00bst3r]

Wasn't the iMac updated on a wednesday? There's still hope for an updated MBP tomorrow.

 

[MacinDoc]

I believe you actually said the "practical difference", which is a term that is somewhat open to interpretation. I chose to consider it as more from a software point of view. I consider both perfectly valid interpretations.

However. 64bit matters because it's gonna be in sales ads regardless of the reality, and because Microsoft's gonna push it bigtime come Vista -- and this Holiday Season is going to see a huge "Vista Compatible" push. It's in the future, sure, but in the product's early lifetime.

Multitasking should also be smoother by dint of the doubling of L2, something that is rarely noted in benchmarks.

One benchmark noted a significant improvement in battery life -- something consumers would notice.

As far as speed goes, I suspect that a significant number of consumers probably wouldn't see a lot of difference in otherwise-equivalent systems clocked at 1GHz vs 2GHz... for most people, what kills their system performance is they don't have enough RAM.

Oops, my bad, I was referring to a different post. Still, the C2D Macbooks and MBPs will both be out well before Vista. But I'm not sure whether the motherboards of any current Intel-based laptops will be able to take advantage of EMT64 extensions - do you have any info on this?

BTW, I have also seen one benchmark that showed inferior battery life with C2D but slightly better performance. I think the author thought that the inferior battery life was because the C2D was accomplishing more work, and if you corrected for the amount of work accomplished in a given amount of time, they were about the same.

You can pretty much find a benchmark to say anything you want to prove.

 

[MacinDoc]

The appleinsider article threw me for a loop though concerning a relative understanding as to the the launch of the new system. Despite that, I am with you on Photokina as the launch pad for the new C2D MBP's.

Besides that and Aperture though, I can see an update to the iSight being released, as well as possible new Cinema Displays. It will be interesting regardless.

Yes, those were my predictions, as well.

Wasn't the iMac updated on a wednesday? There's still hope for an updated MBP tomorrow.

Many ppl seemed to think the iMac update happened on a Wednesday because the weekend before the introduction was a long weekend. However, Apple has had some other Wednesday introductions, and even a Friday introduction.

 

[ergle2]

Besides that and Aperture though, I can see an update to the iSight being released, as well as possible new Cinema Displays. It will be interesting regardless.

Thinking about it, Aperture could gain bigtime from the SSE improvements in Merom. Good way of demonstrating the advantages of the new chip...

Didn't they just release new Cinema Displays in August?

 

[Maccus Aurelius]

Thinking about it, Aperture could gain bigtime from the SSE improvements in Merom. Good way of demonstrating the advantages of the new chip...

Didn't they just release new Cinema Displays in August?

I was going to start a photography class in the fall, at which point i may get myself a nice digital camera and aperture for the notebook. if aperture does get a big improvement with merom, i may get that MBP before then.

 

[AppleKrate]

just what kind of work are you doing that the current line is so "outdated?"


i swear this board is so full of cry babies, youd think it was the sesame street forums.

i do very heavy final cut studio work, on my NON INTEL QUAD (oh my god, i cant believe it even RUNS, its a whole 9 months old...) and on my 1.33 powerbook (which is 3+ years old, and still handles FCP fine like wine).


i hope i was never this bad about wasting money with apple just to keep up with the Jones'.

yes, my .933 G4 is also [EDIT] ok [/EDIT] with FCP, but one day (soon? but not on my G4) I'll be editing HD. The reason I can still use my G4 to produce DVDs is because I waited for the Quicksilvers. Or going back further, remember the point at which the G3 iMacs became DV-capable/Firewire-enabled (after the fruity flavours) There really are points at which the technology takes a useful step. Whether the mythical Merom MBP is such a point is up for discussion... which is why I'm hanging out here at this point. For what it's worth, I'm thinking about a HD screen, and wondering about Blu-Ray vs H-DVD or whatever... also, I'm using After Effects which won't be Universal til...

 

[HecubusPro]

Didn't they just release new Cinema Displays in August?

No. They lowered the prices of the current models at WWDC. That's one of the reasons I think they might announce new cinema displays. Lowering the prices might have been a sort of inventory cleaning strategy. Just a thought.

 

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

I say they keep Core Duo (Yonah) in their Macbooks and Minis (and take the prices down 100 bucks across the board once Intel lowers its Yonah pricing) and add Core 2 Duo to the iMac (already done) and Macbook Pro lines.

 

[AppleKrate]

No. They lowered the prices of the current models at WWDC. That's one of the reasons I think they might announce new cinema displays. Lowering the prices might have been a sort of inventory cleaning strategy. Just a thought.

Hail, Hecubus, you got your picture displayed!

 

[gnasher729]

Well, very technically, Dell has C2D laptops for $729 and $779. Not saying that either of those are as powerful as a MBP by a long shot, but goes to show that even budget computers are getting Merom.

For these prices, you only get the 1.66 GHz Merom chip. It doesn't have the 4MB L2 cache of the faster chips, so it isn't any faster than a 1.83 GHz Yonah.

 

[ergle2]

Oops, my bad, I was referring to a different post. Still, the C2D Macbooks and MBPs will both be out well before Vista. But I'm not sure whether the motherboards of any current Intel-based laptops will be able to take advantage of EMT64 extensions - do you have any info on this?

The i945 range supports a max of 4GB, but I don't see that as an issue in a laptop. Otherwise, EM64T operation is supported -- Pentium-D/4 systems based on i945 that will run XP 64bit Edition have been around for some time.

I suspect the reason the new iMacs are limited to 3GB is they've reserved a gig of memory for memory mapped IO space.

There's also i946 but I don't think the mobile version of that ever materialised. It's essentially the same (well, the integrated graphics version offers X3000, which is actually slower than GMA950 from what I hear...) but can support 8GB of physical RAM.

BTW, I have also seen one benchmark that showed inferior battery life with C2D but slightly better performance. I think the author thought that the inferior battery life was because the C2D was accomplishing more work, and if you corrected for the amount of work accomplished in a given amount of time, they were about the same.

You can pretty much find a benchmark to say anything you want to prove.

The early C2D benchmarks were based on engineering samples, which were slightly worse. The newer benchmarks I've seen show either similar or significantly improved performance. Some were also based on replacing the CPU in existing Yonah systems, which meant the BIOS wasn't updated. New BIOS revisions usually include new APCI tables and microcode updates that cane make noticable differences to thinks like operating temp and battery life. It's a tuning process, pretty much.

The benchmarks that showed significant battery-life improvements seemed to to be mostly of a type where there weren't external devices that put a major drain on the system -- Wi-Fi, spinning DVD drive, etc. Whether this affects you depends on your usage pattern. The guy who wordprocesses/writes offline replies to email on a train is a lot better off, the guy who surfs in Starbucks, not so much...

This suggests that the processor itself is more efficient but such improvements can be easily masked by the lack of changes elsewhere -- pretty much what one would expect.

Santa Rosa might improve matters, but the early test versions actually suck significantly more power. However, it's unfair to compare them yet, given Santa Rosa isn't expected for another 7-8 months. Sorry, I digress...

The other thing to note is that Merom can complete tasks faster and return to idle, which can when tuned properly (BIOS microcode etc.) can actually extend battery life somewhat.

 

[HecubusPro]

is there a link for this?

Perhaps he is talking about this Brenthaven bag?
http://www.brenthaven.com/catalog-apple-pro-15-17SC.html

Hail, Hecubus, you got your picture displayed!

Thank you very much.

 

[Butthead]

just what kind of work are you doing that the current line is so "outdated?"


i swear this board is so full of cry babies, youd think it was the sesame street forums.

i do very heavy final cut studio work, on my NON INTEL QUAD (oh my god, i cant believe it even RUNS, its a whole 9 months old...) and on my 1.33 powerbook (which is 3+ years old, and still handles FCP fine like wine).


i hope i was never this bad about wasting money with apple just to keep up with the Jones'

Uh huh, by your sig line can we infer your 'heavy' FCS work is with puny bandwidth highly-compressed, lowest of the low quality SD DV25 work? How many streams of uncompressed Standard Def. video can you do real-time with that PB 1.33, which has what, a single 5.4k drive? How many streams of compressed (higher bandwidth) 2k 1080p HD video do you edit regularly?

If the Red camcorder makes it's debut next year (at a price that Indie's can rent it at least), and has uncompressed 4k outputs, you think you can do squat with that PB (assuming the rumors that FC will support the Red workflow?), and yeah that 'old' Quad will bonk on 4k material in your current setup...4GB RAM sheesh! Can we say over the hill, well beyond it's time, decrepid wine ?

SGI Powers First Real-Time International 4k Collaboration

That AI rumor is the dumbest I've seen yet. What next, 'our sources say that Penryn, will be put into the next revised MBP by next summer'... just meaningless, it's given that sooner or later Merom will make it into a Apple Laptop, it's just Apple is falling behind everyone else, cause a) they decided to put it into the iMac and therefore have to wait weeks for supply to be available to update the laptops or b), there are heat issues (penalty of going to such a thin case design), and possible problems with higher performance GPU's, or supplies of other components other than just the CPU that are reasons for the slight delay.

So what happens to everyone if Apple doesn't update by Photokinkia? Massive suicides, rioting; burning older Apple laptops worldwide, in protest? ... or will you just whine somemore until the next Tuesday?

 

[ZoomZoomZoom]

just what kind of work are you doing that the current line is so "outdated?"


i swear this board is so full of cry babies, youd think it was the sesame street forums.

i do very heavy final cut studio work, on my NON INTEL QUAD (oh my god, i cant believe it even RUNS, its a whole 9 months old...) and on my 1.33 powerbook (which is 3+ years old, and still handles FCP fine like wine).


i hope i was never this bad about wasting money with apple just to keep up with the Jones'

Not sure if you noticed that I specifically put "outdated" in quotations. I know that the hardware isn't outdated in terms of usage. If it weren't for kernal panics, I could still use my G4PB.

"Outdated" also means that something is being replaced with something else new. It affects resale value at least on the CPU level, and potentially usage value on magnetic latch/HD bay/GPU level.

And yes, I do push my computer to the limits. Not so much work, although I like having a couple dozen programs running. But moreso for gaming. And some of these games are CPU-intensive more than GPU-intensive. MBP for gaming? Well, it's the only convenient solution for me if I want to game while at college, since I don't want to haul a desktop, and a dedicated GPU is a must. If I can run more things at once and increase my productivity while at it, that's just a bonus.