Gen 3 butterfly keyboard

[Painter2002]

The number of people who put off getting their computer repaired for something that doesn't render the computer inoperable is probably extremely high.

I agree with most of what you are saying except for two parts.

In your example of a cracked phone screen, most people don’t get those fixed because they already know it was their fault and they’d have to pay for it to get fixed. They also know that getting it fixed could potentially be expensive.

Second, the problem is with the keyboard, that the majority of the key failures actually do in essence make the computer inoperable. A failed key means you can’t type the letter b, or e, or whatever letter it is without an external keyboard. Or if it was duplicate keystrokes being received, constantly deleting the second letter is time consuming. This is something most people would take in.

Now, I do agree with @537635 point, that many people buy MacBooks for the cosmetic appeal and simply use their machine for video content or basic web-browsing. Those users indeed would likely never notice or ignore the keyboard issue. But for the large numbers of professionals and students, I don’t see them skipping on bringing the machine in to look at a failed key.

But like you said, we don’t have any true numbers and we never will. Ultimately we are all guessing. I have had my 2017 MBP for almost a year with no issues, but I know I am at risk. After 4 years I’ll likely upgrade to get something new that hopefully won’t have the keyboard issues.

 

[poorcody]

That wasn’t the point.

The numbers you posted are misleading. They’re not % of systems sold, they’re % of systems brought in for repair. How those change by year are irrelevant to the clarification I made.

The numbers show that the rate of keyboard repairs doubled from 2015 to 2016, then fell by about a quarter in 2017. If the keyboard problem was rampant, the rate would have far more than doubled from a tiny amount.

If you're looking for the percent of total systems sold that had keyboard repairs, it will be far far lower than those percentages (unless 100% of laptops were returned). The latest Consumer Reports survey shows about 10% of Apple laptops are taken in for service by the second year of ownership (2014-2017 models). If one were to extrapolate the repair rate from that (and the article claims repair rates have been even), then the 2016 keyboard repair rate would be around 1.2% of total systems.

I don't know how good AppleInsider's methodology was, but gathering statistics is far more reliable than our personal anecdotes and impressions.

 

[deeddawg]

The numbers show that the rate of keyboard repairs doubled from 2015 to 2016, then fell by about a quarter in 2017. If the keyboard problem was rampant, the rate would have far more than doubled from a tiny amount.

Again, the point of my post was NOT to comment on year to year changes in the numbers. I was simply clarifying that they represented the percentage of warranty repairs which were for keyboards.

As to your quote above, the reported number of warranty service events varies widely instead of remaining steady year to year. 2120 service events in 2014, 1904 in 2015, 1402 events in 2016, and 1369 events in 2017. Trying to compare percentages of total warranty repairs and come up with some sense of year to year keyboard repair rates is just not feasible given the numbers provided.

IMHO the only thing that's at all meaningful in the numbers provided is the ratio of second and third keyboard repairs; 2014/15 models had relatively few re-repairs and there was a big jump with 2016, including a bunch of third repairs where there were none in 2014/15. That the 2017 rerepairs dropped substantially suggests the 2017 changes did have a non-negligible effect though not eliminating issues.

 

[turbineseaplane]

.

 

[537635]

I will try to ask this once more - does anybody remember any computer or keyboard model, which would have keys failing in such widespread (again, no numbers here) way as with the latest Macbooks?

I try to recall all my previous laptops and desktops before that with external keyboards. Never even once did I think that a key might fail. They were literally indestructible. Sure, liquid damage might do it, but from normal use with no eating by the computer - they simply wouldn't fail ever.

 

[Newtons Apple]

I will try to ask this once more - does anybody remember any computer or keyboard model, which would have keys failing in such widespread (again, no numbers here) way as with the latest Macbooks?

I try to recall all my previous laptops and desktops before that with external keyboards. Never even once did I think that a key might fail. They were literally indestructible. Sure, liquid damage might do it, but from normal use with no eating by the computer - they simply wouldn't fail ever.

This is what we sacrifice for Apple's obsession with thin. Other keyboards are not crammed into such a tight space.

 

[Painter2002]

I will try to ask this once more - does anybody remember any computer or keyboard model, which would have keys failing in such widespread (again, no numbers here) way as with the latest Macbooks?

I try to recall all my previous laptops and desktops before that with external keyboards. Never even once did I think that a key might fail. They were literally indestructible. Sure, liquid damage might do it, but from normal use with no eating by the computer - they simply wouldn't fail ever.

No, I can't recall any other keyboards in the laptop industry that have had failures at such a large scale, but I think it is also important to note that before the last 3-4 years, most keyboards had keys that were easily replaceable. You got a stuck or broken key it was easier to pop it out and and clean out the key, pop it back in.

In fact, I think if Apple had designed these keys in such a way that they could have been replaceable individually, this would not have been as big of an issue. Not saying it wouldn't have still been a problem, but it wouldn't have been as severe or costly since the stuck keys would have been fixable without replacing literally almost 1/3 of the entire computer.
[doublepost=1534352309][/doublepost]

This is what we sacrifice for Apple's obsession with thin. Other keyboards are not crammed into such a tight space.

Sadly this is true. I never complained about thickness on the last gen of MacBook Pros, and I would have been fine if they had kept that thickness.

Pretty soon before you know it we will all be typing on paper instead of metal and plastic.

 

[Newtons Apple]

No, I can't recall any other keyboards in the laptop industry that have had failures at such a large scale, but I think it is also important to note that before the last 3-4 years, most keyboards had keys that were easily replaceable. You got a stuck or broken key it was easier to pop it out and and clean out the key, pop it back in.

In fact, I think if Apple had designed these keys in such a way that they could have been replaceable individually, this would not have been as big of an issue. Not saying it wouldn't have still been a problem, but it wouldn't have been as severe or costly since the stuck keys would have been fixable without replacing literally almost 1/3 of the entire computer.
[doublepost=1534352309][/doublepost]
Sadly this is true. I never complained about thickness on the last gen of MacBook Pros, and I would have been fine if they had kept that thickness.

Pretty soon before you know it we will all be typing on paper instead of metal and plastic.

I fear the laptops of the future will just be two screens and we will be typing on the bottom one.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I will try to ask this once more - does anybody remember any computer or keyboard model, which would have keys failing in such widespread (again, no numbers here) way as with the latest Macbooks?

I try to recall all my previous laptops and desktops before that with external keyboards. Never even once did I think that a key might fail. They were literally indestructible. Sure, liquid damage might do it, but from normal use with no eating by the computer - they simply wouldn't fail ever.

No - And it's totally unacceptable for them to have engineered something so critical as the keyboard in this way.

It's like being worried about your car steering wheel malfunctioning or the wheels deforming while out driving thus forcing you to "take it to the shop for work that might take a week+" - but hey.... "its covered by warranty" - Gee.. thanks.

Absolutely unacceptable.

 

[macintoshmac]

I have had my 2017 MBP for almost a year with no issues, but I know I am at risk. After 4 years I’ll likely upgrade to get something new that hopefully won’t have the keyboard issues.

I am decided on doing the same with my 2016, run it to death and get the totally new iteration when it comes. most likely that will feature an extensively revised keyboard design and of course, more power than today.

The future seems bright that way! 2020-21 we are waiting !
[doublepost=1534360516][/doublepost]

listed percentages were the portion of those repairs which were the keyboards. There's still no solid info relating the warranty numbers against the total units sold.

I will try to ask this once more - does anybody remember any computer or keyboard model, which would have keys failing in such widespread (again, no numbers here) way as with the latest Macbooks?

I try to recall all my previous laptops and desktops before that with external keyboards. Never even once did I think that a key might fail. They were literally indestructible. Sure, liquid damage might do it, but from normal use with no eating by the computer - they simply wouldn't fail ever.

This is what we sacrifice for Apple's obsession with thin. Other keyboards are not crammed into such a tight space.

I think they completely overestimated the design/ manufacturing tolerances and that is such a tight design that it is biting them in the hind. I am confident that this will be rectified in the coming iterations, but I do feel bad that customers have to pay through those bad iterations to reach the one that "just works".

 

[Newtons Apple]

I think they completely overestimated the design/ manufacturing tolerances and that is such a tight design that it is biting them in the hind. I am confident that this will be rectified in the coming iterations, but I do feel bad that customers have to pay through those bad iterations to reach the one that "just works".

My 2018 MBP 15" keyboard has operated without flaw and am very happy. Went though 3 replacements with the 2017.

 

[macintoshmac]

My 2018 MBP 15" keyboard has operated without flaw and am very happy. Went though 3 replacements with the 2017.

Fortunately I have Apple's promise till November 2020 to take care of any keyboard issue and give me a free battery as well. I shouldn't be giving up on this sweet a deal, and should wait for the next hardware redesign instead, considering I am not pushing the boundaries of my computer's current computing power.

 

[markedlymac]

Weekly update on my case:

Firstly, I understand that my last post was a large wall of text, sorry about that. To summarise it more neatly in any case, see here my second letter of demand (two pages) that I just sent to Apple this afternoon:

A couple hours before I was about to post it off, Apple phoned me to say that my MacBook's serial number would not suffice as proof of purchase for this warranty claim (where under Consumer Law, it does, and in terms of normal Apple practice aside from Consumer Law, we all know it does, because of their well-managed serial and device history database that they use for Apple customers all the time).

It's the stupidest thing I have heard them tell me after everything I have pointed out to them now about their contraventions of Consumer Law. So before sending the letter, I updated it with also addressing that surprise attempt at denying my refund from that angle today as well.

My current reading is that Apple is doing EVERYTHING they can, when they can help it, to prevent customers from getting any other remedy option apart from their UNACCEPTABLE Keyboard Service Program (which replaces defective part with just a new defective part), which they only set up as a result of the lawsuits in America.

To be honest, Apple's Keyboard Service Program in and of itself ought to be sued over (either by consumers or national regulation bodies), because what consumer in their right mind would accept a defective part to be replaced with ANOTHER defective part?

And now that we have a third-gen keyboard with dust-proof membrane design, this behaviour of Apple refusing to replace an old unit with a 2018 one - if they can do anything to this effect in their power - is staggering to me. Apple are not taking responsibility for their mistakes in a fair manner. Instead they expect their customers to accept returning the device AGAIN and AGAIN to have it away for repair for 2+ weeks at a time, on a regular basis, for years on end!

Anyway, the ACCC are really supportive of me and cheering me on as I progress with my action. They gave me some cool advice yesterday on how i can easily represent myself at the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal (if it goes to that stage) and that The Tribunal actively encourages it! So now that I know that the full process is very accessible to the consumer, I absolutely will go that far if I need to - like that guy in USA did!

To me this case is disgusting. There's no beauty in this situation with Apple. I want my case to be over, and it's becoming more and more stressful as it goes on. But I also want to fight for the consumer's right to not be intimidated or bullied by corporations who think they can treat them like ****, and that is a beautiful thing to do with the situation I have.

It's unbelievable how Apple will respond when a customer seeks a reasonable remedy for a product defect Apple doesn't want the customer to think exists!

And I won't let it happen.

 

[maflynn]

(where under Consumer Law, it does,

No completely.

• a serial or production number linked with the purchase on the supplier’s or manufacturer’s database

If you didn't buy it from apple, its not linked and it will not suffice as a proof of purchase.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

John Gruber is seeing an issue

 

[537635]

I think this comment from the Twitter conversation above sums it up:

“I think we designed ourselves in a bit of thinness corner.”

 

[Arizor]

Congrats!

What were your issues?

You were given a new keyboard, or a whole new 2018 MacBook Pro?

Sorry folks just saw these, and just received the MacBook Pro 2018. So hope that answers the latter question - yes I received a whole new MBP 2018.

My issues were simply it was the third time I was returning my MBP 2016 due to a keyboard issue. I explained I needed my MBP for work and could not keep affording to return it, so I wanted a refund.

They were fine with this (but then again I did buy via the Apple Store so different to OP), but when I said I would just use the refund towards a 2018 model, they said "wait a minute, let's save you some money and work out a swap", which was very nice, and all has worked out brilliantly.

Couldn't be happier with this 2018, and the service.

edit: OP - Serial number is not proof of purchase; it must be a serial number linked to purchase. Quick example: John buys MBP from non-Apple shop. Jill steals MBP from John. Jill then tries to return MBP direct to Apple to make a quick buck on refund, using "this is the serial number as proof of purchase". It would be a disaster.

 

[1096bimu]

You guys do know that you can buy a $5 keyboard cover that will make it completely immune to dust right?
What's with all the crazy lawsuits?

 

[Arizor]

You guys do know that you can buy a $5 keyboard cover that will make it completely immune to dust right?
What's with all the crazy lawsuits?

Owner of KeyboardCovers.com spotted.

 

[lambertjohn]

My 2018 MBP 15" keyboard has operated without flaw and am very happy. Went though 3 replacements with the 2017.

Yeah, but it's only been out since July, right?

 

[537635]

You guys do know that you can buy a $5 keyboard cover that will make it completely immune to dust right?
What's with all the crazy lawsuits?

Keyboard covers do not help. I used one with keyboard nr. #2 or #3 (don't remember anymore). It failed even with the cover being on all the time.

With computer keyboards apparently environmental resilience comes from adequate design tolerances. I hope Apple designers learned their lesson.

 

[thadoggfather]

John Gruber is seeing an issue

And if John Gruber is seeing an issue, there are probably (but not necessarily) problems long term again though diminished... Gruber is the ultimate Apple fanboy so I gotta give him credit when he's honest like this. and I think he said pre-2018 that the 2016/2017 were like one of the biggest apple design screwups ever... can't remember someone can cite it better than me.

They need to come out with a whole new thing to get out of the tarnished reputation rut imo.

 

[SDColorado]

I fear the laptops of the future will just be two screens and we will be typing on the bottom one.

That appears to be the direction the rumored Microsoft Andromeda is headed.

 

[thadoggfather]

That appears to be the direction the rumored Microsoft Andromeda is headed.

I just can't see that being good on your hands, or feeling nice. even with a believable but fake feedback situation. ugh. the future looks grim.

 

[SDColorado]

I just can't see that being good on your hands, or feeling nice. even with a believable but fake feedback situation. ugh. the future looks grim.

I swear I saw a photo of it somewhere where you could remove half the display and attach a physical keyboard, but I am not sure if that was an early or late render. Nor do I have any idea how accurate any of the rumors are.

Other than being able to be put into some nifty configurations, I am not sure I understand what the market is for it either.

I am not even that big a fan of typing on the phone or iPad, let alone making extended use of that sort of keyboard.