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Barbareren

macrumors 6502a
Dec 10, 2020
542
533
Norway & Mexico
I am a long time ATV user, and probably will be for a long time unless Apple discontinues it.

This is probably why I am so critical of it, because I am disappointed in the direction Apple is taking one of my favorite devices, and disappointed that because of Apple, the ATV is not being utilized to its full potential.

I often get accused of hating Apple or Apple devices when I give what I think is constructive criticism (it has happened multiple times by the OP in this thread and other threads of his), but I sometimes get accuse of being an Apple apologist or Apple fanboy as well. Both happen at least once in the same thread before, actually I think it was an ATV thread a few years back.
I feel you, bro! ? It can sometimes be difficult to separate the haters from the ones who actually offer constructive criticism online, unfortunately... I'm also sad the ATV hasn't progressed to its full potential of course!
 
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jeff051177

macrumors member
Nov 17, 2011
59
60
I am very familiar with the Computer app, and used to use the it for my DVD collection until I found out (the hard way) that it couldn't be used offline when my internet cut out for a few days at my home. I have since went with PLEX, and it is a much better option. The UI is a lot better than the Computer app.

It is cross-platform, so it works on most non-Apple devices as well. It might be worth checking out if you haven't.
Me too. The first gen apple TV was an absolute game changer, but since that point apple have been progressively making it more-and-more awkward to use your local media, switching to a 99% streaming model. I say 99% because somebody will argue that you can still technically do it via the computers app..... but in practice it's a very frustrating experience. I tried having a headless mini as a server, but realized that a Synology NAS + plex was just a far superior solution. It also makes me feel better that Plex is multi-platform, and if apple discontinue the apple TV (for example) it doesn't cause me a problem.

This is probably why I am so critical of it, because I am disappointed in the direction Apple is taking one of my favorite devices, and disappointed that because of Apple, the ATV is not being utilized to its full potential.

My feelings exactly. If they discontinued the Apple TV I wouldn't be at all surprised - but I'd lament the loss of perhaps the most well-used apple device in our house.

I suppose the cheaper alternatives might be a good enough solution

And I think ^ this is at the heart of it's commercial failure (or lack of success). It just hasn't realized it's potential sufficiently to justify the hefty jump in price over it's competitors. You can point to colour balancing (lol), airpod integration and homekit support, all you like, but the fact is that, even with Apple's "brand appeal" it's not offering people any more of what they want for the increased cost. 99.99% of people just want a firestick/chromecast/TV apps..... apple made a product for the 0.01%, and even then didn't really get it right.

There are some strange fanboi's/haters out there..... and this debate about the apple TV is perfect for frying their noodle. "What? An apple product can be partly good and partly bad? No! You need to pick a side and be a d!ck about it"
 

Barbareren

macrumors 6502a
Dec 10, 2020
542
533
Norway & Mexico
☝️ Oh, the Apple TV certainly is both the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

However, it’s cool that the Apple One subscription includes Apple Arcade. Might get more people interested, maybe, probably not that many lol, but at least it might help keeping Arcade alive… Unfortunately there’s no incentive getting a new AppleTV for gaming as the new remote doesn’t have gyro lol… I have an Xbox controller connected, but those controllers ain’t cheap…

That was a really bad move by Apple, imo. You used to be able to use the bundled remote as a game controller, but now many Apple Arcade games require an external controller. Even though I like the new remote, one’s gotta question the removal of the gyroscope and accelerometer…

It’s often difficult understanding Apple’s decisions… The ATV is way cheaper than any other serious gaming system, but when you have to get a separate controller… - it’s obviously not a real gaming system. It is quite good for casual gaming, but you’ll have to add the expense of an external controller… For me personally (I tend to always be in the ‘niche market’ lol) it works pretty well. I have my criticisms as well obviously. Like why the F hasn’t the search function been improved during all these years? And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put more resources into improving Apple Arcade!



(PS: I just wanted to add that Chromecast is the worst product I’ve ever tried)
 

-Gonzo-

macrumors 65816
Nov 14, 2015
1,011
472
I have a lot of issues with MR on my iPhone, and it seemed to have gotten worse with iOS15 or maybe with my new iPhone 13 Mini.

Especially with quoting posts.
Can’t say I’ve found using an iPhone troublesome myself with MR, quoting posts seems easy enough to me.
Just select Reply on the post you’re quoting, if it’s quoting multiple posts then a quick selection of the Quote tab on each post then Reply.
 

droplink

macrumors regular
Dec 7, 2014
101
60
☝️ Oh, the Apple TV certainly is both the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

However, it’s cool that the Apple One subscription includes Apple Arcade. Might get more people interested, maybe, probably not that many lol, but at least it might help keeping Arcade alive… Unfortunately there’s no incentive getting a new AppleTV for gaming as the new remote doesn’t have gyro lol… I have an Xbox controller connected, but those controllers ain’t cheap…

That was a really bad move by Apple, imo. You used to be able to use the bundled remote as a game controller, but now many Apple Arcade games require an external controller. Even though I like the new remote, one’s gotta question the removal of the gyroscope and accelerometer…

It’s often difficult understanding Apple’s decisions… The ATV is way cheaper than any other serious gaming system, but when you have to get a separate controller… - it’s obviously not a real gaming system. It is quite good for casual gaming, but you’ll have to add the expense of an external controller… For me personally (I tend to always be in the ‘niche market’ lol) it works pretty well. I have my criticisms as well obviously. Like why the F hasn’t the search function been improved during all these years? And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put more resources into improving Apple Arcade!



(PS: I just wanted to add that Chromecast is the worst product I’ve ever tried)

Could not agree more.
Apple SHOULD have bundled the Apple TV with a controller (even as an option so there is a box with an Apple TV with a controller, and one without) so to make both people and developers understand that Apple was serious about gaming.
The hardware of the Apple TV is and was good to play the same games as on iPad, which for casual gamers would be enough.
It would have been enough to challenge Nintendo.
 
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oneMadRssn

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
5,754
13,369
☝️ Oh, the Apple TV certainly is both the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

However, it’s cool that the Apple One subscription includes Apple Arcade. Might get more people interested, maybe, probably not that many lol, but at least it might help keeping Arcade alive… Unfortunately there’s no incentive getting a new AppleTV for gaming as the new remote doesn’t have gyro lol… I have an Xbox controller connected, but those controllers ain’t cheap…

That was a really bad move by Apple, imo. You used to be able to use the bundled remote as a game controller, but now many Apple Arcade games require an external controller. Even though I like the new remote, one’s gotta question the removal of the gyroscope and accelerometer…

It’s often difficult understanding Apple’s decisions… The ATV is way cheaper than any other serious gaming system, but when you have to get a separate controller… - it’s obviously not a real gaming system. It is quite good for casual gaming, but you’ll have to add the expense of an external controller… For me personally (I tend to always be in the ‘niche market’ lol) it works pretty well. I have my criticisms as well obviously. Like why the F hasn’t the search function been improved during all these years? And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put more resources into improving Apple Arcade!



(PS: I just wanted to add that Chromecast is the worst product I’ve ever tried)
I don't see ATV as a gaming device, even casually. I get the feeling the executives pushing it as one during the keynotes never actually used it as such themselves.

Gaming has two sub-categories - portable or powerful. Setting aside some recent developments (e.g., Steam Deck), it has never been both. Look at the Switch, probably the best portable device ever made but it's not powerful, yet it is on track to be the best selling console ever. Further, if iOS devices used for games counted as portable gaming consoles, they would easily eclipse Switch numbers by a magnitude. On the other side of the coin, Microsoft and Sony have really locked in the powerful side of gaming (with NVidia and AMD brining up the rear with PC gaming). Nobody expects those things to be portable-they expect them to be cutting edge.

But where the ATV fit in? It's not portable, and the hardware and games are not cutting edge. Sure it can run some iOS games at a high resolution, and it can be a lot of fun. But at the end of day, it's the worst of both words - not portable and not powerful.

I see the ATV as having two primary strengths: First, it seamlessly integrates with iPhone and Mac. They need to add Facetime to tvOS and the synergy will be nearly perfect. Second, the ATV is the antidote to "you are the product" smart TV platforms. Roku, Android TV and Chromecast, Fire TV, webOS, Tizen, SmartCast, HarmonyOS - all these are loss-leaders that are subsidized by their owners selling your watching habits and whatever other data they can mine.

If Apple pushes these strengths harder, I think ATV will see more success as a platform.
 

jwolf6589

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Dec 15, 2010
3,831
912
Colorado
I don't see ATV as a gaming device, even casually. I get the feeling the executives pushing it as one during the keynotes never actually used it as such themselves.

Gaming has two sub-categories - portable or powerful. Setting aside some recent developments (e.g., Steam Deck), it has never been both. Look at the Switch, probably the best portable device ever made but it's not powerful, yet it is on track to be the best selling console ever. Further, if iOS devices used for games counted as portable gaming consoles, they would easily eclipse Switch numbers by a magnitude. On the other side of the coin, Microsoft and Sony have really locked in the powerful side of gaming (with NVidia and AMD brining up the rear with PC gaming). Nobody expects those things to be portable-they expect them to be cutting edge.

But where the ATV fit in? It's not portable, and the hardware and games are not cutting edge. Sure it can run some iOS games at a high resolution, and it can be a lot of fun. But at the end of day, it's the worst of both words - not portable and not powerful.

I see the ATV as having two primary strengths: First, it seamlessly integrates with iPhone and Mac. They need to add Facetime to tvOS and the synergy will be nearly perfect. Second, the ATV is the antidote to "you are the product" smart TV platforms. Roku, Android TV and Chromecast, Fire TV, webOS, Tizen, SmartCast, HarmonyOS - all these are loss-leaders that are subsidized by their owners selling your watching habits and whatever other data they can mine.

If Apple pushes these strengths harder, I think ATV will see more success as a platform.
I also don’t game on ATV as this is not its purpose.
 

Barbareren

macrumors 6502a
Dec 10, 2020
542
533
Norway & Mexico
I also don’t game on ATV as this is not its purpose.
Correction: It is not its primary purpose, much like how a smartphone’s primary purpose is being a phone, but most people now use it for everything.

Like @droplink mentioned, the potential is there. That’s the whole point - the ATV is not being used to its full potential! I would think you’d want the same, even though you, personally, ‘don’t game’.

The ATV has the power and the potential to be so much more - almost like a proper computer. Why can’t you use Safari directly on the ATV box for example?
 

jwolf6589

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Dec 15, 2010
3,831
912
Colorado
Correction: It’s not it’s primary purpose, much like how a smartphone’s primary purpose is being a phone, but most people now use it for everything.

Like @droplink mentioned, the potential is there. That’s the whole point - the ATV is not being used to its full potential! I would think you’d want the same, even though you, personally, ‘don’t game’.

The ATV has the power and the potential to be so much more - almost like a proper computer. Why can’t you use Safari directly on the ATV box for example?
They tried the web browser on a TV nonsense back in the 1990’s and it did not work well with The TV.
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2014
6,415
7,338
They tried the web browser on a TV nonsense back in the 1990’s and it did not work well with The TV.
So, if it failed in the 90's I guess it would never work? With that logic, Macs, iPhone, and the iPad were doomed from the start.


Can’t say I’ve found using an iPhone troublesome myself with MR, quoting posts seems easy enough to me.
Just select Reply on the post you’re quoting, if it’s quoting multiple posts then a quick selection of the Quote tab on each post then Reply.
Quoting whole posts isn't the problem on iOS, it is when trying to quote a specific section in a post that can be problematic for me.

For example:
a quick selection of the Quote tab on each post then Reply

I like to quote specific parts of posts to give context to what my reply it to. Quoting whole posts, especially long ones, can be very confusing.

You can see it in this thread many times, when people quote a whole post saying that it is wrong or that they disagree instead of quoting the exact parts that they feel is wrong or that they disagree with.
 

AL2TEACH

macrumors 6502a
Feb 17, 2007
609
143
North Las Vegas, NV.
While these are really nice features to have, the primary function of what the ATV is mostly used for is typically streaming, imo.
I thought that was established a few posts back.
Heck, I'm trying this quote thingy :eek:

Besides, a lot of things you mentioned are available in similar apps for other platforms. Apple Music and ATV+, for example, are available on other platforms.
All I know is that Apple's ecosystem is like no other and the rest are trying to catch up. Apple is known for their ecosystem, it's their gotcha thing. Those apps can be used on other systems but can they be used the way or are they just apps.

As for HomeKit, and hubs, there are other Apple devices that can be used for hubs, so it isn't exclusive to the ATV.
Never said it was exclusive and that's the beauty of the ecosystem.

As most of the world is using other platforms for home automation (not me), a HomeKit hub is hardly a deal maker for most, imo.
I'm really liking this quote thing, lol, now that I got the hang of it.
HomeKit needs work but the third parties need to step up their game.
I really wanted a HomeKit Doorbell camera but they are not as good as the Ring, so I had to go with the Ring(which will soon absorb ADT, lol). HomeKit is new and it will improve hopefully.

PLEX, and it is a much better option. The UI is a lot better than the Computer app.

It is cross-platform, so it works on most non-Apple devices as well. It might be worth checking out if you haven't.
Agree but we all know Apple's wall garden short comings. Yes, I luv Plex.

Getting to the original point of failure, I don't think that anything you mention makes the ATV so special that it cannot be directly compared with streaming boxes in terms of sales, marketshare, name/brand recognition, etc.
What you see as a failure, I see as Apple's shortcomings. The only thing that makes it special to me is the ecosystem. I could go about it's eh shortcomings for awhile but I'm just amazed at how well it works realizing the work that goes into it all. Heck, I'm amazed at how we can see those electrons as a tv picture and all the work it must take to get all those little things in a tv to do all those very complicated things they do. Opsie, went a little off point.
The sales and etc...mean nada to me. I'm more concerned about Apple's sharecropping ways to the people that build the stuff but that's a different story.
 
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AL2TEACH

macrumors 6502a
Feb 17, 2007
609
143
North Las Vegas, NV.
but realized that a Synology NAS + plex was just a far superior solution. It also makes me feel better that Plex is multi-platform, and if apple discontinue the apple TV (for example) it doesn't cause me a problem.
Yes, Plex is better in everyway because that's what they do and it's not what the Apple TV does primarily. It's more like a half-ass jack of all trades within the ecosystem.

but I'd lament the loss of perhaps the most well-used apple device in our house.
Agree.
And I think ^ this is at the heart of it's commercial failure (or lack of success). It just hasn't realized it's potential sufficiently to justify the hefty jump in price over it's competitors. You can point to colour balancing (lol), airpod integration and homekit support, all you like, but the fact is that, even with Apple's "brand appeal" it's not offering people any more of what they want for the increased cost. 99.99% of people just want a firestick/chromecast/TV apps..... apple made a product for the 0.01%, and even then didn't really get it right.
Apple TV is primarily for people in the ecosystem. The color balance works pretty good and only works within the Apple TV, it just makes things warmer or cooler but the idea that it works using the color temp from your phone is not so laughable because of the tech involved, it's pretty nifty.
The way that the AirPods Pro and 3 are integrated is also pretty neat. The head tracking, Transparencey mode, off, and spatial audio for movies in just neat. Now, some of the apps will say if they support Spatial Audio. The future of HomeKit is or could be bright but Apple and third parties need to work on it more. Firestick ecosystem is being worked on by Amazon, Google is working on Chromecast. The three companies are working on ecosystems not just a tv thingy. About the cost of an Apple TV, I agree, the product doesn't justify the costs in any way and Apple is very slow to improve it. It seems like the focus of Apple is not so product oriented like it was at another time.
There are some strange fanboi's/haters out there..... and this debate about the apple TV is perfect for frying their noodle
I thought I read through most maybe all the posts and I didn't get that vibe at all.
"What? An apple product can be partly good and partly bad?
Again, I thought most if not all acknowledged that fact.
No! You need to pick a side and be a d!ck about it"
I really do hope that whatever I typed could not be perceived as rude in anyway shape or form. It was never in anyway my intent to be rude or a dick. I have to say though, if I was perceived to be a dick, gawd make me a big one, maybe one of those monster thingys, lol. I guess, I should say that was my attempt at a funny.
 
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JCCL

macrumors 65816
Apr 3, 2010
1,359
2,226
They tried the web browser on a TV nonsense back in the 1990’s and it did not work well with The TV.
It's awesome on my Xbox. I use it mostly to get streams that wouldn't otherwise be available in apps. Having full Edge made it way more useful.
 
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kiranmk2

macrumors 65816
Oct 4, 2008
1,112
894
I definitely feel like Apple had a 'build it and they will come' mentality to gaming on this device but when the floodgates didn't open up in 2015 with the launch of the AppleTV 4 they've basically given up. As has been said time and again on this thread, the Apple TV 4k is very overpowered (and large) for a steaming device. It strikes me that the system has been left in a halfway house state by Apple - too expensive for a streamer and not powerful / supported to be a gaming system.

At the launch of the iPad Pro in 2018, it was noted that the A12X had a GPU of about the same power as and Xbox One S so there is no reason the AppleTV couldn't be an excellent gaming platfom from a hardware point of view (although it would need more/expandable storage). If Apple cared even a bit about gaming I think they should have bought Nintendo in the 2014 period when they could have scooped it up for around $15bn. Nintendo are the masters of doing more with less and just letting them loose on the gaming side (designing controllers that worked across iOS devices, all the Nintendo first part IP on the Apple platform).
 

bizzwriter

macrumors member
Aug 4, 2010
56
13
Left coast...
Apple TV has been a failure for me in the sense that I bought a first gen when it was introduced, then bought second and third gens when they came out. However, I stopped buying Apple TV units once our new smart TVs started incorporating all the streaming apps within them, including Apple TV+, Apple Music, YouTube TV, Netflix, Hulu, etc. etc. Not a gamer so that's not a reason for me to buy Apple TV.
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2014
6,415
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According to the recent leaks, it looks like there might be a cheaper ATV coming soon.

Max Tech thinks that there will be two ATVs, a cheaper and lower powered model to replace the ATV HD, and a higher end model to replace the current ATV4K2.

The cheaper one, keeping the A12, will be USB powered, and will not come with a remote. Max Tech think it will be priced @ $80.

The high end one, maybe with a M1 and bundled with a controller.



I personally wouldn't want an ATV without a remote, and having to using your phone. That was my biggest complaint about the original Chrome Cast. I know, you could most likely buy a Siri Remote, but the new Siri Remote is very expensive for what it does.


I definitely feel like Apple had a 'build it and they will come' mentality to gaming on this device but when the floodgates didn't open up in 2015 with the launch of the AppleTV 4 they've basically given up.
I agree, except I wouldn't say they gave up with the ATV4, but probably after the ATV4K1.

The problem with gaming on the ATV4 was that the A8 was underpowered compared to the rumors (Xbox 360 quality graphics) leading up to the announcement, and more so, Apple's limitations on tvOS apps, such as the tiny static storage size of 200MB and the Siri Remote requirement.

These things killed a lot of the momentum for gaming development for the tvOS.

Apple later walked back all of the things I listed, increasing the static storage size to 4GB, and allowing controller-required apps. Then later on, Apple released the ATV4K, with the A10X and its killer GPU, way overpowered to be used for just a streaming device.

But sadly, it appears the damage has been done, the few developers that gave tvOS a try, and now leaving it behind.

I have mentioned several times over the past two year on the forum that gaming developers are abandoning or pulling their tvOS version of apps, while continuing to support their iOS, iPadOS, and MacOS version of their games.

Who can blame them since Apple doesn't seem to care about it.


Maybe Apple could turn it around, but if they don't have developers on board, it wouldn't matter. Apple could have the best gaming device in the world, but no one would get it if there was no games for it.
 

Barbareren

macrumors 6502a
Dec 10, 2020
542
533
Norway & Mexico
Speaking of gaming… Has anyone actually been successful in playing any Apple Arcade game without any bugs/crashes? Because, I sure as hell haven’t. Even one of my favourite pastime games - SonicRacing is acting up at times. And Asphalt 8 and Asphalt 8+ are completely unplayable. I used to be able to play Asphalt 8 on my old ATV with its remote, but with the new ATV and an external remote it is simply unplayable. Crashes every single time. Annoying AF.

Any recommendations for any action, fast paced Apple Arcade game which doesn’t crash? Do they even exist???

Thanks

(I’m honestly very disappointed in the ATV’s capabilities beyond simple streaming of media).

Edit: Also, how come it takes forever to download anything to the ATV compared to any other Apple device?

Edit2: Apple Arcade is a service you have to pay for, so why is it sooo bad (still)?
 
Last edited:

Eric Idle

macrumors 6502
Jan 4, 2020
300
131
Developers HATE Apple TV so it is a dead platform. A zombie platform at best.

No developers = total failure of Apple TV.
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2014
6,415
7,338
Speaking of gaming… Has anyone actually been successful in playing any Apple Arcade game without any bugs/crashes? Because, I sure as hell haven’t. Even one of my favourite pastime games - SonicRacing is acting up at times. And Asphalt 8 and Asphalt 8+ are completely unplayable. I used to be able to play Asphalt 8 on my old ATV with its remote, but with the new ATV and an external remote it is simply unplayable. Crashes every single time. Annoying AF.
What Apple TV are you using?

Any recommendations for any action, fast paced Apple Arcade game which doesn’t crash? Do they even exist???
Try Alto's Adventure and Alto's Odyssey, It is a mix a slow and fast action. Both are fun, but kind of relaxing.

I played both when they were just apps, and I purchased both, and I have encountered very little bugs and glitching with either of them.


Also, how come it takes forever to download anything to the ATV compared to any other Apple device?
I also haven't had this issue on any of my ATVs.

The only downloading issue I have had is that I am always low on storage space, even though all my ATVs are 64GBs. I get out of storage messages a lot.


Apple Arcade is a service you have to pay for, so why is it sooo bad (still)?
My guess is that because Apple Arcade is so cheap. There is only a handful of games on there that could be considered AAA games.

Think of it this way, most AAA games are $40-$60 at launch, @ $5 a month, it would take 8-12 months of paying for the whole service to pay for just one AAA game.

Most of Apple Arcade is going to be what I call bubblegum games. They are tasty for a very limited time, and then you are done with them.

There are a few exceptions, games that are AAA or AAAish.

OceanHorn 2 is one of them. It is like Zelda BotW-lite. You can get a solid 40 hours of gameplay, or maybe 50+ to complete all the achievements. I think I have 60+ hours on it, because being open-world, I love exploring it, even areas that I wasn't supposed to. The world is huge and very detailed for being on Apple Arcade.

Another good game is Fantasian, which is RPG. It was made by one of the original creators of Final Fantasy. I never finished it, but enjoyed what I played of it.
 
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Juicy Box

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Sep 23, 2014
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I have the latest model.
It played well on the A8 of the ATV4 for you, but now is crap on the newer ATV? I wonder if it is playing @4K on the new ATV.

Not sure if this is the issue, but gaming developers complained about the A12's GPU in the ATV4K2 having lower real world performance than the A10X in the ATV4K1.

It could be that it is not optimized for the newer ATV, or just bugs and glitches in general.

Kind of strange that Apple would allow a game that is so glitchy to be on their arcade service.

Not sure if this should be counted as an Apple TV failure, Apple Arcade failure, Apple failure, or all of the above.

Developers HATE Apple TV so it is a dead platform.
Yup. I have talked to a few gaming developers about it.

One of them, SMG the developer of RISK, one of the most popular tvOS games at one point, and constantly on the list of top grossing apps, stopped supporting the tvOS version of apps about a year ago.

I asked them if they had plans to update the tvOS Risk app, and they told me that they are no longer supporting it and pulled the app from the tvOS App Store because:
SMC said:
Due to the drastically reduced support by 3rd party SDK & plugin providers for tvOS we can no longer support the AppleTV version to the extent we would like to.

No developers = total failure of Apple TV.
Yup, at least as a device that is used for anything other than streaming. There seems to be support for tvOS apps from the streaming companies.

But, for gaming or anything else, tvOS is becoming a ghost town.

So, the Apple TV 4K is too expensive for the average consumer as a streaming device, and there is not enough 3rd party support (or even from Apple) to be anything but a streaming device. Major failure, imo.
 
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