Have you ever made a serious attempt at suicide?

[pseudobrit]

Even Japanese who do not practice religion have some basic beliefs which are derived from religion. In Shinto, it's believed that all members of a family are tied together for all eternity, that our actions affect everyone, including our ancestors and descendents...

Don't be concerned. It's really quite positive.

Ever think of having a ritual where you "die" and are reborn as a new man, totally independent of your biological family? Just sever any spiritual connection with your old family and your past and become a free agent of a spirit. Kind of a benevolent ronin soul.

I'm sorry to hear that so many people from MacRumors have been hurting. I know the feeling quite well, but even at my worst, I can't allow myself to fall victim to my weakness and neither should any of you. You all have many things to accomplish in your future. If you don't believe in yourselves, you should know that I believe in you.

One thing to think about that can save your life is to always give yourself a week. Too many people suffering a crippling but temporary low could have come out of the wave if they'd just waited until the morning.

 

[dogbone]

Suicide in Japan can be a great thing.

In my own life, every day I want to die but because my adoptive parents are Americans, I will not do it to avoid hurting them. The day they're both dead, I will restore my biological family's honour by dying.


I was born because my Japanese mother was with a white man but she wasn't married. This was double the dishonour to the family. 100 years prior, my grandfather could have killed her without a problem because it was a proper way to conduct matters of honour. She had a choice of suicide to address the problem but she did nothing, further complicating the matter.

I was born about 1000 km/600 miles away from the family home to hide the shame. Not only that, but my kind was hated by Japanese in Japan and later, by Americans in the U.S.A.

Things have changed over time, but the shame remains as long as I live. Do I suffer? Perhaps. Does my family suffer? Yes. Would my death rectify the situation to Japanese society? Yes.

bousozoku, I find your post astonishing and beautiful. I like the Japanese and their attitudes to the tradition of the way of the Samuri, honor, death and pronography. I love the game of Go and how it encompasses the essence of life and all things Jananese. Complexity in simplicity.

I'd like to say at this point that pain is not sorrow. I saw a very beautiful Japanese movie a long time ago that was about a 69 year old woman. Being that age it was her time to die and she journied up the mountain to die.

 

[pseudobrit]

There are a great variety of ways to commit suicide (not 'attempt') and little imagination is required to come up with them and, without wanting to sound controversial, those who don't succeed invariably don't see death as the desired outcome.

I think there are some distinct categories we can place the events into

A) attempted suicide, successful -- intended to die and did
B) attempted suicide, unsuccessful -- intended to die and did not
C) parasuicide, accidental suicide -- intended to be "saved" but was not and died
D) parasuicide, "attempted suicide" -- intended to be "saved" and lived

Now, there's plenty of grey area here, because any gesture of suicide involves introducing a deadly threat to the body. Even if someone intends to be found, they know the huge risk they may not make it somehow.

And of course, there are degrees of intention in both cases. Someone may choose a method with what they percieve as a 30% chance of survival or they may, as the OP did, choose a method they percieve as 100% deadly.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

I really like this post of yours Chip. I was going to comment anyway on your earlier mentions of 'failure' and give you my understanding of this word. 'Failure' is in reality a nonsense word in the way that we are programmed to believe it. I guess it starts in primary school and our ingrained attitude that there are winners and losers. This is why competative sports at an early age are not good. This just instills this false attitude.

I have come to see it this way. There is an order to the world, physiological, psychological, biological, and so forth. These laws operate as they do, a ball dropped from a buiding will fall. That's just the gravitational law in operation. We as humans cannot control these laws we can only work within them. A flying plane does not control gravity it just works within other physical laws.

We as human beings with free will cirtainly have choice over our actions but we do not have choice over the results of our actions, other wise we would never fail, everything would go according to our expectations. We need to understand that after choosing to perform an action, there are four possible results. Exactly what I expect, more than what I expect, less than what I expect or the complete opposite of what I expect.

The feeling of 'failure' is an ingrained non understanding of what is and is not under our sphere of influence. We make our choices based on what we know, we cannot be expected to know everything about everything. For example you may invest your money in a safe investment with a low risk, but there may be some incredibly rare event that causes you to lose all your money. This could be seen as failure but there was no failure. You wanted to invest your money and you did, a successful actions. That the result was not to your expectation must also be expected. It's just a graceful acceptance of what is.

I do get frustrated with friends of mine who try to insist that certain things they have done makes them a 'failure'. They did the best they could with the knowledge that they had. Just being alive makes you successful.

Failure, as a reason for suicide is very sad.

You have a point. But look at from my POV. I was groomed early on to join the "vocation" - very long story, let it be that there was a family history involved. When I rejected that, there was pressure to join the military as my Dad did. But we were at the tail end of Vietnam and left some of us wondering what the true goals and motives were. My Dad was in law enforcement, when I rejected going in to the priesthood or the military; all there was, was law enforcement. And I did not see myself in that. I wanted photography.

My parents being from the Depression Era saw photography as a "job" for those that could not cut it elsewhere. I see now we are a product of our parents generation. I see co-workers that are supportive of their children, while trying to provide a base of support for what ever the future may bring their children. Wish I had that.

To be honest the sense of failure went much deeper. I was never the star athlete, or even a minor one. As much as my Dad was the handyman around the house, I never quite measured up to his expectations. What I did excel at was learning. Not stuff that made for great grades, but stuff that made me more informed about the world we live in.

Add to that in college I was left with sexual identity issues. For much of my youth I was told I was saving myself for God's work. And when that failed, then I was doing God's will to have children, helping the Church. All along with dealing with self-image issues and sexual identity issues dealing with what my Dad may have wished me to be.

But given my upbringing, giving "honor" to family wishes was an important part of my upbringing. So I can fully understand in a small way the Japanese concept of "honor".

I am second generation American. From Depression Era parents. They wanted more from me. My choices and skills left them wanting. That left me with the scars of trying to live to their expectations and trying to live my life as I wanted.

Maybe in some small way this is why I fight for the voices drowned out by the stronger. This is also explained by my retail training that that the majority may "rule", but it is the minority that will speak volumes behind your back; and may hold you back. This may speak to why I fight so on some issues here on MR.

 

[Demon Hunter]

Thank you for this thread.

I haven't read the entire thread yet. But if you can't be sensitive and discerning, don't post. Don't group and label and compartmentalize. There's enough of that in the DSM-IV-TR. Don't one up yourselves on such a grave matter. This is about life, not your ego.

This issue is frightening and relevant to me today. I'll share my own experience if it's alright. It's hard to admit, but I think about death a lot. Today in particular was bad. It's not an easy feeling to understand.

Here's a tip for the guys: don't date a woman who's borderline. You'll want to kill yourself in 6 months or less. Seriously, though, I still have nightmares about her. I used to fantasize about dying. I had my "first" major depressive episode at 16 (with psychotic features, no less).

Fast forward to Monday, May 1, 2006. I am now 20. I will probably be diagnosed with bipolar disorder, after years of mismanaged care. I had to withdraw from all my courses (again). If I'm lucky, the University will refund my tuition, and I'll re-enroll in the Fall.

I feel a bit of ire; my family doctor originally put me on antidepressants, and research is showing that bipolar patients show adverse reactions to SSRIs, including suicidal thoughts and anger. My psychiatric evaluation was sparse. There's irony for you.

I think about my friends, who will be graduating years ahead of me. My mother who cries because she doesn't understand. My father yells, and I feel ashamed. I don't work hard enough. To myself, I am unworthy.

But it's not all bad. Hell has given me an appreciation for the daily commute, friendly gestures, broken promises. I believe I was saved by Jesus Christ, who forgives and protects me from this wretched disease. I figure He knows what's going on best.

I apologize if that was too personal. But don't abstain from letting people know you love them. They want to know. They need to know. It is a constant battle.

To the other survivors, these are beautiful lyrics by the band TOOL:

I embrace my desire to
I embrace my desire to
Feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow
To feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty,
To bathe in the fountain,
To swing on the spiral
To swing on the spiral
To swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human.

 

[gekko513]

Thanks for replying, bousozoku, and for explaining more about Japanese honour and Shinto. I won't pretend that I understand it now, but at least I have some idea what it's about.


All this serious talk about suicide, depression, life and honour is thought provocing and a bit unnerving.

I'd just like to say that I'm happy that all you others who have gone through mind troubling times are still hanging in there. Sometimes the wheel sinks you down into the mud, but it will always drag you up into the sun again at some point. Live for the good times.

 

[pseudobrit]

I think about my friends, who will be graduating years ahead of me. My mother who cries because she doesn't understand. My father yells, and I feel ashamed. I don't work hard enough. To myself, I am unworthy.

Gotta live your own life, my friend. Live it the way you want to and the way you need to and never mind anyone else.

I know it's hard to put it into that perspective, but if you can get to there, you're a long way to feeling better about your life.

 

[katie ta achoo]

I'd just like to say that I'm happy that all you others who have gone through mind troubling times are still hanging in there. Sometimes the wheel sinks you down into the mud, but it will always drag you up into the sun again at some point. Live for the good times.

exactly
If I had actually died that night, I would have never met my beautiful nephew, gone to my wonderful school, play the amazing symphonic literature, HAVE MY SENIOR RECITAL, Graduate with the best friends a girl could ask for, "found" economics, and (small beans compared to the rest) found this wonderful community called "MacRumors".

Looking back on it, I get misty eyed. I would have missed this all. I would have missed out on so much. Even if I accidentally died now, I'd miss out on so much: getting my Ph.D.s, adopting/having kids, meet the man of my dreams.

You have to think about how you'll never know the good if you've never experienced the bad. As trite as it sounds, it's true.

 

[pseudobrit]

and (small beans compared to the rest) found this wonderful community called "MacRumors".

Small beans? We're "small beans"?

*sulks, saunters off to kill self*

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

While I have to wonder about the wisdom/utility of a thread like this, I must say that I am impressed by the candor and support evinced by our members.

It is quite a reflection of our community that people have been so forthright about such a personal issue.

This is what I have been talking about in other threads. Few rules, other than when the true mods step in.

It was not easy to share what I have shared privately here on MR. I consider myself lucky to be here today. As you and other have seen in the past few years, I have had more than some would be considered my fair share of pain. I shared what I did for 30 years ago - only because I have just begun to see what I would have missed if I allowed others to dictate what I should feel or believe in.

It was the candor and honesty and forget the "rules" attitude that made MR the place that I would first and only contribute money to.
In the end if my being here after my bout 30 years ago and the pain that I went through a year ago can give hope to even one person; I am letting all my warts hang out. For I never want someone to feel as worthless as I did in my youth.

I will, however, bring up one point. Suicide (successful or not), affects a great deal more than the individual. As someone involved in a suicidal situation, but who has never contemplated it myself, I must say how difficult it was to handle such a situation, and how I made as many mistakes in attempting to do the right thing. I still don't quite understand.

There are "innocents" in a suicide.Those that never saw the true pain that persons life. In my case, my friends would have been left wondering why. At the time it was just not right to share feelings. And even if we did, it was not "our" way I was brought up by to share "deep" details with others.

As to my life, let it rest with the details I have shared so far. There is so much more that lead me to my "moment" that I am not willing to share at this time. Lets just say there were deeper issues too.

 

[gekko513]

There are a great variety of ways to commit suicide (not 'attempt') and little imagination is required to come up with them and, without wanting to sound controversial, those who don't succeed invariably don't see death as the desired outcome.

That's an oversimplification made on the assumption that a person can have only one desire or at least only have non-conflicting desires. A mind is a great parallel thinker (Core Duo is left in the dust when it comes to parallelism) and can desire to die and to live at the same time.

A person of great resolve who's only desire is to die will succeed eventually. I'm sure a movie hero played by Bruce Willis would find the most effective way to do it, but as we have already discussed, there are so many reasons for being suicidal and with many of them we're dealing with a confused, self-loathing mind without the resolve to deal with his mind and life in an effective manner. It's a bit strange to expect such a person to be the most effective at planning and executing a suicide.

 

[dogbone]

There was some debate earlier on about the 'selfishness' or otherwise of suicide. I think this is a bit of a red herring. Everything we do is only for the sake of the pleased self and therefore 'selfish'. Suicide is no more or less selfish than any other action, including any sort of altruism.

Oh wait, you live in the Blue Mountains. Surely there's a nice drop somewhere that'll kill anyone successfully. What about that area that people go to to photograph the Three Sisters? Nice and steep drop.....highly recommended.

I disagree, Walls Lookout is much better, if one was serious

Well if you all attempted to die, then why the low success rate with suicide?

as --Andrzej said in post #48 dead people don't post.

Maybe the guy who gave you the battery acid didn't actually give it to you in case you attempted suicide?

But he did give it to me. I believe he only made his comment because shooting up battery acid had become a bit of a cliché.

a) People, don't try to be funny in this thread. I'm not saying that you're being cruel or insensitive or something, but it's probs not going to be well recieved.

I think it's healthy to laugh at anything. As long as it's not personal or meant to hurt. If it unintentionally hurts, then that is unfortunate.

You make it look so bad, even though it is, wen people are like this, they truly feel they have no way around it.

yes it's a feeling of no future just black emptiness.

Experts will tell you that some attempts are gestures vice real acts. I have seen both -- especially when it comes to opening one's wrists.

For me an attempt like cutting ones wrist is inherently fraught with complexity. It's slow and give plenty of time to change ones mind or be discovered. If it is successful it speaks of a desire to make a statement.

If you think your crass and boorish comments are an indication of humour, I think you need to take a close look at yourself... no-one's laughing.

While I did not find his posts humorous I did not take offense.

Suicide is the most selfish thing you could ever possibly do. Suck it up; you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that's really happy with their lives. Doesn't mean you go and kill yourself.

Tell me something that *isn't* done for one's own sake?

It's the truth, and anyone who is suicidal needs to learn to deal with truth. Life is hard, life is unfair, bad things happen. No need to make them worse.

Originally Posted by Brize
It must be nice to have a monopoly on 'the truth'.
Rephrased: What exactly are you implying?
I'm simply pointing out that you dismiss the opinions of people who don't share your views by claiming your own opinion to be 'the truth'.

someguy:
Not true. I've had a handful of friends who have tried several ways to kill themselves, failing each time only to admit years later that they were just doing it for attention and felt, even at the time, that they could've easily done much more damage.

[dogbone:]
Well in that case that is not a serious attempt is it?


someguy:
That isn't the case at all and I apologize for causing you to think so. What I mean by 'the truth' is that many people I know/knew could not grasp the concept that life just isn't perfect (huge understatement, I know). When things go wrong, they always thought that it was only happening to them and they just weren't meant to be happy, therefore feeling that they would rather be dead (by some twisted logic). The truth is that I don't know ANYONE who have perfect lives where nothing bad happens or are happy all the time. I felt terribly depressed for years until I realized how my life compared to many others'. You just have to learn to stick it out through the bad times.

[dogbone:]
I don't think you understand the difference between feeling life is giving you a raw deal and life is giving you no alternative, ever. That is how it seems, as irrational as it is.


someguy:
I'm sorry, I just don't believe that a thread could consist of anyone who has seriously made an attempt. If I really wanted to die, I'd kill myself and I would not fail. Everyone in this thread had/has some will to live, even if only a tiny bit of it on a subconscious level.

[dogbone:]
Are you saying that anything you have ever done has turned out exactly as you had planned? You don't think it is possible that you may genuinely make a mistake?


Someguy:
Unsubscribing to this thread now.

[dogbone:]
Am I to construe this public announcement as a cry for help?

 

[Demon Hunter]

That's an oversimplification made on the assumption that a person can have only one desire or at least only have non-conflicting desires. A mind is a great parallel thinker (Core Duo is left in the dust when it comes to parallelism) and can desire to die and to live at the same time.

Any psychoanalysts here? Freud is turning in his grave.

Gotta live your own life, my friend. Live it the way you want to and the way you need to and never mind anyone else.

I know it's hard to put it into that perspective, but if you can get to there, you're a long way to feeling better about your life.

Yes, I've realized that. I'm fortunate that I have goals, that I'm not willing to give up on.

 

[njmac]

Maybe the guy who gave you the battery acid didn't actually give it to you in case you attempted suicide?

But he did give it to me. I believe he only made his comment because shooting up battery acid had become a bit of a cliché.

But how do you know?

 

[dogbone]

I haven't read past #153 yet, I'll need to have a break it's too intense, I've forgotton to eat or drink. bbl

But how do you know?

I don't know, which is why I used the word "believe", I try to be careful with words.

 

[dukebound85]

You're both the selfish ones if you would rather have someone suffer greatly than end it somehow, as opposed to feeling your own suffering if they were to go through with it.

Its easy to be against it if you've had loved ones commit suicide, its much much harder if you've thought about it yourself.

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time. If you have others that depend on you and you are calling them selfish for wanting you to live at the price of you wanting to die. All I can say is wow wake up.....seriously. No matter how you put it commiting suicide is a selfish act by the person since they are following their impulses and don't give a crap about what others may think. So I take it you would rather emotionally scar your children or cause immense pain to your family just so you can be a coward and not face the pain that almost everyone at some point or another goes through in thier life. Sad just sad I do hope you change your outlook on life and start caring about others feeling besides your own

 

[pseudobrit]

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time. If you have others that depend on you and you are calling them selfish for wanting you to live at the price of you wanting to die. All I can say is wow wake up.....seriously. No matter how you put it commiting suicide is a selfish act by the person since they are following their impulses and don't give a crap about what others may think.

It's not done for selfish reasons; it's done because the person is sick.

So I take it you would rather emotionally scar your children or cause immense pain to your family just so you can be a coward and not face the pain that almost everyone at some point or another goes through in thier life.

But it's not like the pain that everyone goes through. Someone who is depressed is experiencing a physical abnormality.

It's like telling someone to "just get over" cancer because everyone has to deal with some amount of cell mutations.

Sad just sad I do hope you change your outlook on life and start caring about others feeling

Likewise.

 

[dukebound85]

I took a lethal dose of caffeine tablets about 11 years ago. I didn't know it at the time. It's not like there's an LD50 on the bottle or I wouldn't have done it. I was just popping them for ***** and giggles.

Totally ****ed my **** up though. Ain't slept the same since.

Haha sorry I kinda have to laugh at that since there are times I need to take caffene pills to stay up and get work done. Never really thought about the fact they could kill you. Glad nothing to bad came out of it though

 

[Demon Hunter]

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time. If you have others that depend on you and you are calling them selfish for wanting you to live at the price of you wanting to die. All I can say is wow wake up.....seriously. No matter how you put it commiting suicide is a selfish act by the person since they are following their impulses and don't give a crap about what others may think. So I take it you would rather emotionally scar your children or cause immense pain to your family just so you can be a coward and not face the pain that almost everyone at some point or another goes through in thier life. Sad just sad I do hope you change your outlook on life and start caring about others feeling besides your own

And who are you to disparage his opinion? Suicide is complex and uncharted territory in the human psyche. The truth is, no one understands these processes. The act of taking one's life is, ultimately, solitary and unknown. Furthermore, no one has an identical genetic disposition (even monozygotic twins are shaped by experience). So you have no basis for judging their distorted reality.

 

[dukebound85]

And who are you to disparage his opinion? Suicide is complex and uncharted territory in the human psyche. The truth is, no one understands these processes. The act of taking one's life is, ultimately, solitary and unknown. Furthermore, no one has an identical genetic disposition (even monozygotic twins are shaped by experience). So you have no basis for judging their distorted reality.

I never said I did, but what I did say is that there are those that may depend on you and if you do, their lives will be forever scarred. How can say they are not selfish when they decide to commit suicide and know that their say 2 year old son depends on him entirely for love and support. All I am saying is to look at the big picture in life and see how ones actions affect others. I firmly believe that those who commit suicide lack this big picture way of thinking for if they did, they would realize that there will be better times ahead in life. It is of no wonder why many people on this thread said they once thought about suicide or attempted it and now would not dream of doing it again and from my impression on this thread, are in better shape emotionally than they were at the time of suicide.

 

[gekko513]

Any psychoanalysts here? Freud is turning in his grave.

Why? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Demon Hunter]

Why? I'm genuinely curious.

Not in a bad way, I haven't studied much Freud, his theories would really apply here.

 

[bousozoku]

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time. If you have others that depend on you and you are calling them selfish for wanting you to live at the price of you wanting to die. All I can say is wow wake up.....seriously. No matter how you put it commiting suicide is a selfish act by the person since they are following their impulses and don't give a crap about what others may think. So I take it you would rather emotionally scar your children or cause immense pain to your family just so you can be a coward and not face the pain that almost everyone at some point or another goes through in thier life. Sad just sad I do hope you change your outlook on life and start caring about others feeling besides your own

Have you ever considered that those depending on someone considered suicidal are the ones prompting suicidal thought, pushing the person over the edge?

 

[gekko513]

Not in a bad way, I haven't studied much Freud, his theories would really apply here.

I've only read Freud for beginners. He divides the mind into three parts the ego, super-ego and the id, and wikipedia has this to say about Freud's view on desires:

"For Freud, the unconscious was a depository for socially unacceptable ideas, wishes or desires, traumatic memories, and painful emotions put out of mind by the mechanism of psychological repression. However, the contents did not necessarily have to be solely negative. In the psychoanalytic view, the unconscious is a force that can only be recognized by its effects - it expresses itself in the symptom."

and two of his hypotheses are

"(3) unconscious conflicts over repressed wishes have a tendency to manifest themselves in dreams, parapraxes ("Freudian slips"), and symptoms, (4) unconscious conflicts are the source of neuroses"

It seems that Freud agrees that people can have conflicting desires.

 

[blackfox]

And who are you to disparage his opinion? Suicide is complex and uncharted territory in the human psyche. The truth is, no one understands these processes. The act of taking one's life is, ultimately, solitary and unknown. Furthermore, no one has an identical genetic disposition (even monozygotic twins are shaped by experience). So you have no basis for judging their distorted reality.

Not to nitpick, but it is her, not his.

Don't mess with the resident Goddesses...