Have you ever made a serious attempt at suicide?

[LethalWolfe]

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time. If you have others that depend on you and you are calling them selfish for wanting you to live at the price of you wanting to die. All I can say is wow wake up.....seriously. No matter how you put it commiting suicide is a selfish act by the person since they are following their impulses and don't give a crap about what others may think. So I take it you would rather emotionally scar your children or cause immense pain to your family just so you can be a coward and not face the pain that almost everyone at some point or another goes through in thier life. Sad just sad I do hope you change your outlook on life and start caring about others feeling besides your own

They want to care, but they can't.
They want to be happy, but they can't.
They want to laugh, but they can't.
They want to love, but they can't.
They want to hate, but they can't.
They want to be mad, but they can't.
They want to cry, but they can't.
They want to feel something, anything, but... they... can't.

The only thing there is a void. It's emotional deprivation. There might be brief spurts of happiness or anger, but those are fleeting and once they are gone you can't even remember what it felt like to be happy or sad. All you feel is nothing. I think that is the most maddening part. Being nearly devoid of all emotion. Being numb, yet knowing you felt something once. Knowing you weren't always this way. Staring into a mirror for hours looking for some sign of life. Some brief glimmer or spark that you can hang on to. But there is nothing. Feeling sad would be a welcome change.

That's why some people harm themselves (cutting or burning). The physical pain and rush of adrenaline can punch thru the numbness. Feeling pain is better than feeling nothing at all. But like all "stimulants" the more you do it the less effective it is. Unless, of course, you increase the dosage (deeper cuts, hotter burns).

So, seriously, you're are trying to rationalize the depth and breadth of an illness which can put people in such a f**ked state of being that they believe physical harm, if not death, is the only thing that can help them with advice like "stop being so selfish" and "think of your friends/family"? Somebody give dukebound85 a Guinness because that's f**kng brilliant. Next up, dukebound85's sage advice to paraplegics, "Just stand up and walk. And stop being so selfish by taking all the good parking spots."


Lethal

 

[Demon Hunter]

How can say they are not selfish when they decide to commit suicide and know that their say 2 year old son depends on him entirely for love and support.

But that's a healthy realization.

A person with severe mental illness has little or no perspective. It's clouded or completely obscured by doubt and self-hatred. They may have delusions, for example, that their death would bring happiness:

"My wife and son are better off without me. I don't want him to grow up and see me like this."

"They shouldn't love me. I'm not worth it."

It's not selfish, it's a tragedy.

 

[dogbone]

Not in a bad way, I haven't studied much Freud, his theories would really apply here.

I was thinking that Jung and his 'black bag' were also appropriate for discussion in the context of the thread.

"They shouldn't love me. I'm not worth it."

It's not selfish, it's a tragedy.

Self loathing is always a terrible tragedy and at the root of the human problem. It makes me angry in an impersonal way that many 'societies' are geared to encourage it.

 

[ravenvii]

I was suicidal once. You know what got me out of it?

Philosophy.

What am I talking about you ask? Well I'm talking about is the realization that life is what you make of it. That after you die, there is nothing. God? *spits* fiction of people who fear this nothingness.

You have to realize the POSSIBILITIES you have at your hands. Your life sucks? Your life is worth ending? Start another one! If you are willing to leave your life to nothingness, screw your family, your friends and your life, there's something better than suicide.

And that is abandon.

What do you do when you abandon? You leave everything. You leave your family, your friends, every ****ing thing. Families, friends, everything are man-made inventions. Realize that, and you will realize that what you are living is all a fiction of man making. Abandon that, and you effectively committ suicide, but you still live. Travel the world, experience what the world offers, and live as the homeless oracle on the beach. You will realize that this is what you are looking for. An dissociation from what you are raised to believe. It's all ********. Do what you want, and **** everyone else.

I was suicidal. I believed that my life was not worth living - that no one wants me. That by dying I'd be doing the world a favor. Then I took a philosophy class. While that class didn't affect me directly, it encouraged me to read philosophy. "A life unexamined is not worth living" - Socrates. "I think, therefore I am" - Descartes. While those are not the most profound quotes in my life, they're the most known quotes that affect me the most. I realized that only the world I created is the one that "doesn't care about me". Once I leave that world... nothing matters - no one knows me, no one cares. I can rebuild my reputation, or I can simply live outside the constructions of people, simply observating the happenings of the world. Falling into nothingness will do the world no favors. It would only do me a disservice - depriving me of the consciousness that I hold most dear in this existence of mine.

Enough of the rant... the point is that I encourage you to dive into philosophy and reach an epiphany before you off yourselves. And please, don't tell me that I don't understand. I have been in the hellish place the same as you have. I know the feelings. I know the irrational hatred of self that follows.

Peace all.

 

[dukebound85]

So, seriously, you're are trying to rationalize the depth and breadth of an illness which can put people in such a f**ked state of being that they believe physical harm, if not death, is the only thing that can help them with advice like "stop being so selfish" and "think of your friends/family"? Somebody give dukebound85 a Guinness because that's f**kng brilliant. Next up, dukebound85's sage advice to paraplegics, "Just stand up and walk. And stop being so selfish by taking all the good parking spots."


Lethal

I think I struck a chord with you. However, I do believe that one way to gain a better outlook on life is to turn to a religion where you live for something other than yourself. As a result, I would assume these people would as a whole be generally happier towards life. To all the atheists out there, you are all probably the "exception" so spare the responses saying I'm ignorant. I believe I am correct with this thinking based on my observations of my friends being religious tend to lead more fullfilling lives than their non-religious counterparts. This is my opinion and so far I see it to be true. I wonder if there are statistics of those who attemp suicide and those active in a religion. I wouldn't be suprised if there was an inverse relationship.

Oh and by the way I don't take the good parking spots unless you consider parking way out in no mans land good spots. I value my 16 year old celica too much to get door dings and such as a result of getting a closer spot lol

 

[pseudobrit]

I was suicidal once. You know what got me out of it?

Philosophy.

What am I talking about you ask?

...

Whew. For a moment there I was afraid you were about to sputter off on a Scientology rant

 

[pseudobrit]

I think I struck a chord with you. However, I do believe that one way to gain a better outlook on life is to turn to a religion where you live for something other than yourself. As a result, I would assume these people would as a whole be generally happier towards life. To all the atheists out there, you are all probably the "exception" so spare the responses saying I'm ignorant. I believe I am correct with this thinking based on my observations of my friends being religious tend to lead more fullfilling lives than their non-religious counterparts. This is my opinion and so far I see it to be true. I wonder if there are statistics of those who attemp suicide and those active in a religion. I wouldn't be suprised if there was an inverse relationship.

Religion also cured my asthma.

 

[dukebound85]

Religion also cured my asthma.

If you were being sarcastic, I wasn't impressed

 

[dogbone]

I do believe that one way to gain a better outlook on life is to turn to a religion where you live for something other than yourself.

The trouble with what you and RavenIII have suggested is that it involves *action* and belief. Whereas freedom from the tyranny of being human, only comes from the knowledge of what is. Funnily enough that knowledge can be found in Vedanta which some people think is religion and some think is philosophy but it is in fact neither.

Can you explain what you mean by saying that you live for something other than yourself?

 

[Demon Hunter]

What am I talking about you ask? Well I'm talking about is the realization that life is what you make of it. That after you die, there is nothing. God? *spits* fiction of people who fear this nothingness.

It is interesting how polar opposite our beliefs are. Without faith in God, I find no meaning in this world. There is nothing, plain and simple. What do you seek? Pleasure, refinement? Bodily sensations, possessions? Man-made meaning and "humanism"? That would be a good reason to kill myself.

Once I leave that world... nothing matters - no one knows me, no one cares. I can rebuild my reputation, or I can simply live outside the constructions of people, simply observating the happenings of the world.

You just described Dissociative Fugue.

 

[blackfox]

I would hope that people would restrain themselves from taking this discussion down the Religious vs. Secular path.

Such discussions never end well, and could very well distract and cheapen this thread and it's contributors.

Remember what this thread is about. People are prone to the same failures and redemptions regardless of any religious or philosophical orientation.

 

[dogbone]

Remember what this thread is about. People are prone to the same failures and redemptions regardless of any religious or philosophical orientation.

This is very true. During the last 30 years my understanding of myself, the world and the human condition has grown. But it has not altered my occasional thoughts of suicide it has just altered the reasoning.

When I was young(er) I was devastated easily losing a lovely woman. Or there was confusion and uncertaintly. I am more emotionally mature now, although there is still a long way to go. However my understanding leads me to the feeling that I do not care if I were alive or dead. Not out of some nihilism but just out of the knowledge that 'I' do not really die. It's all 'me' anyway. I just have a more mature attitude to death but I still consider suicide occasionally. But just from the point of 'why bother with all this crap'. Funnily enough it is only my gf who can evoke this.

In fact I know there must come a time eventually when I need to choose to die. When I am no longer able to live comfortably, when I'm too old.

 

[Brize]

I believe I am correct with this thinking based on my observations of my friends being religious tend to lead more fullfilling lives than their non-religious counterparts. This is my opinion and so far I see it to be true.

I hardly think that your group of friends - or anyone else's, for that matter - constitute a representative sample.

I wonder if there are statistics of those who attemp suicide and those active in a religion. I wouldn't be suprised if there was an inverse relationship.

I wouldn't be surpried either, but not for the reasons you suggest. Might it be because all of the major religions forbid suicide?

 

[Abstract]

Another point I'd like to make is that some people are claiming the high moral ground by pretending that they are talking about a *serious* suicide attempt and then grandstanding. For example this post by...


Now Clix, has used this gambit to post a long rant BUT we are expected to just take his/her word for it that the attempt was in fact *serious*. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't. The point is that we cannot know because he/she hasn't told us what the exact circumstances were.

as an example of what I mean let me quote this post...


Now without diminishing gekko's view that it was serious, this is *not* what I call *serious*. Taking every single pill in a cabinet does not qualify as *serious*. One pill is enough if you knew it was a suicide pill. For example those that were given to spies in case of capture.

Exactly. Again, I haven't attempted suicide, but dogbone asked for serious attempts, and if all of you seriously attempted to commit suicide, there wouldn't be so many people here with so many stories to tell.

And I wasn't trying to drive people to "jump." I said I don't understand it, and I don't. I also haven't gotten many decent responses as to how so many people can fail at suicide if they gave it a serious attempt. Lots of "Oh, you just won't get it unless you've been in that dark hole" statements doesn't qualify as an answer to a simple question from someone who doesn't understand.

And if you've just "thought about it," then that isn't a serious attempt at suicide. Neither is taking a lot of pills from a cabinet. Most of the drugs people keep in their cupboards wouldn't kill you in large amounts, although it would mess you up and hospitalize you.

I gave suicide a brief thought once because I thought I had failed out of uni and disappointed my mum. Ever had chinese parents that stressed education to the point where it seemed like if you failed at that, you don't really have a purpose? Turns out it was a misunderstanding with Uni Admin ( ), but you know what? Thinking about suicide, "giving it a go", and a serious attempt are different things to me, and as much as I wanted to end it, I wouldn't have been able to. It's not because of the loved ones I'd disappoint even more, but because I was in Durham (UK) as an assistant on an interesting research project, and it was sunny and bright outside for the first time in 3 weeks, so I took a walk that night instead.

And for people who drove someguy out of here: If you really wanted people like Someguy and dukebound85 and I to see how painful living in this world can be for some people, then at least make an attempt to see the world from the eyes of someone where "suicide" makes absolutely no sense. Devilot has the right idea. She always does though.

 

[janey]

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time....

Considering one of the sources of my emotional turmoil, I couldn't give a damn. It's not immature, and not everyone is born the same way, thinks the same way, is treated the same way, or deals with issues the same way.

I don't know where you learned the whole suicide-is-selfish argument, 'cause it's pretty annoying and even an intro psych class would teach you some of the causes of such behaviour, some of which the person has no control over. Many of which have been outlined by others in this thread already.

So please stuff it. You're not helping anyone who may be suicidal. Your argument is just as bad as the "snap out of it" s**t, and for some people it may work, but for the vast majority, no, no it doesn't. Didn't for me, and unsurprisingly probably doesn't for anyone else here who may be.

 

[Abstract]

In many cases we don't understand, or think we do, and this can cause grave errors in judgement, however well-meaning. That some choose to react with humor, flippancy or crass language, says little about their genuine ability to sypathize with the subject, only that everyone approaches this subject the best they can, with their peculiar failings.

If the goal of this thread is understanding, then I hope it would be extended to everyone ......

Well said. Again, I apologize for making a joke at the beginning, but that joke does relate to what I want to ask about "attempts" at suicide, as I would have thought that any serious attempt at suicide would have probably worked out (eg: bridges, shopping malls, Blue Mountains, etc etc etc).

And for me, jokes ~ nervous laughter during a murder in a movie scene. People just deal with things differently. Lots of people are like that. Accept it, or let it drive you mad.

 

[Abstract]

I think there are some distinct categories we can place the events into

A) attempted suicide, successful -- intended to die and did
B) attempted suicide, unsuccessful -- intended to die and did not
C) parasuicide, accidental suicide -- intended to be "saved" but was not and died
D) parasuicide, "attempted suicide" -- intended to be "saved" and lived

Now, there's plenty of grey area here, because any gesture of suicide involves introducing a deadly threat to the body.

What about "cries for help?" Do they intend to be saved all the time, or do some of them "try" to take as much pills as possible, but believe that this actually won't kill themselves. They're hoping they fail and wake up on the floor in a day or 2. People have conflicting thoughts all the time.

 

[itcheroni]

I don't mean to derail this threat but I wonder how someguy and dukebound85 feel about other right to die cases. Would you guys have Terry Schiavo to stay on the machine? Or what if I had nobody dependant on me and nobody who would miss me (I'm sure the latter is what most suicidal people believe but I'm just talking hypothetically here), would it then be okay for me to commit suicide?

And about this Mac forum having a lot of attempted suicides- hey, we're a more creative bunch, which gives us the resources and burdens of being F***ed up in the head. Hmm, actually, it's the other way around, fked up head>resources/burdens>creative>probable Mac user, but you know what I mean now that I've said it.

 

[jadekitty24]

No matter how you put it commiting suicide is a selfish act by the person since they are following their impulses and don't give a crap about what others may think.

Wow. And you know this how? I for one, have attempted it and but for the grace of God here I am. 6 Years ago my boyfriend at the time committed suicide. When I met him he was the sweetest guy ever, sexy, funny, upbeat. Then he fell in with the wrong people and became a crack addict. His family completely ditched him at the first sign of trouble. Him and I had our ups and downs but for the most part I was there for him. He would try so hard to get off the drugs but he kept going back. The last time he failed he killed himself. No one in his family would even speak to him, that very day he tried to call his sister and she told him to lose her number. He was in deep turmoil over his addiction, he felt he had nothing. He felt guilty, like he was poisoning everything he touched. And he killed himself. I was the one to find him. I went through the various stages, I mourned, I was angry at him, blah blah. Now I only look at the situation with great sadness. I don't believe he was being selfish in the decision he made. I knew him better than anyone, one thing he was not was selfish. Other than the addiction (he had been clean one month and that day had gone on a bender)there were no signs. We had been at the bottom of the barrel and he was always the one to maintain a positive attitude. But now, having been through that, to ever call someone in so much pain he/she is considering suicide selfish would be unthinkable. This is death we are talking about, and while you may not understand any of it the snotty condescending comments really need to stop. All of you just quit it. If you don't have something real to contribute then just go sit in the corner and pick your nose. That will be worlds more helpful than what you are contributing.

 

[itcheroni]

That's possibly the most immature thing I have hear in a long time.

Is anyone here a fan of Home Movies? I could totally hear Junior Addleburg say that line.

http://www.toonzone.net/homemovies/Junior.html

 

[dogbone]

Another aspect to suicide that I've often pondered is this.

I've felt sometimes overwhelmed with a feeling that I just do not wish to be alive any longer, and I thought at that time that if I had in my possession something like a cyanide pill (surefire rapid death) I'd take it at that moment even knowing what I knew at the time, which was that I would not feel like this in an hours time. Curious. I wonder how many of us would be alive today if we had a little cyanide pill in a ring all the time.

I am aware that I need to have the means to do myself in at hand at the moment I feel like it. So thoughts turn to things that one cannot undo, but will set in motion while in that particular state. It's as if there is a realisation that one needs to be in an irrational state. But one needs to be rational to organise it, by which time one chooses not to bother. I'm not sure if I've explained this well.

 

[Blue Velvet]

Glad you didn't succeed. We'd miss you...

How would you miss something that never existed?

Nice words but I think others would quibble with the 'we'.

Noticed that one of my posts in this thread has been deleted. Regardless, I still completely stand by that comment. Fine work there, fellas...

 

[jsw]

However, I do believe that one way to gain a better outlook on life is to turn to a religion where you live for something other than yourself.

I want to be sure I understand your point. Are you saying that someone who is considering suicide, who feels that there is no hope, that the pain - physical and/or emotional - is unbearable, possibly that the guilt will never go away... that such a person could reasonably be expected to simply say "Oh gosh, life seems so useless now, but I think maybe I should just go to church, because then I'd feel better..."?

To all the atheists out there, you are all probably the "exception" so spare the responses saying I'm ignorant.

First, I doubt you're right that atheists (or at least agnostics) are the exception here. Second, I tend to think that those of us who are religious - I'm not, but many I admire here are - are more likely to be so out of a conscious decision to follow a path as opposed to following a path simply because others told us to do so. Third, as I'm sure you know, many of those who are suicidal tend to have addictive personalities (please note that I'm not saying such people are addicts or that all of those who are suicidal have addictive personalities... just that it's a common descriptor for a large subset of that group). They have issues with drugs, or gambling, or thrill-seeking, or... religion. To many, religion is a deeply felt concept resulting from introspection and thought. To many others, though, it is simply an outlet for an addictive personality. So, in that case, I would perhaps have to agree with you that religion might save such people if only because it gave them a different and more socially accepted addiction.

I have to absolutely and completely disagree about your belief that suicide is selfish. Such a view simply exposes your ignorance of the subject or perhaps your anger towards someone who attempted or committed suicide.

Those of us who have either been suicidal or who have dealt with those who attempted and/or succeeded at a suicide know that, at least most of the time, selfishness has absolutely nothing to do with it, and the person involved often feels as though it would be better for all if they'd go and in fact often attempt or commit suicide even though they don't want to die because they feel it would be best for others in their lives.

 

[dogbone]

You'd probably have to be in an irrational state the entire time to really pull it of...

That depends on the individual very much so. For me life and death don't really have much intrinsic meaning. Only knowledge of the ultimate nature of reality is worth pursuing. And I also know that the day must come sometime. So sooner rather than later doesn't really make much difference in the whole scheme of things does it. A whole lifetime is only the blink of an eye. Although it seems infinitely long during it.

 

[0098386]

...Days will get better...

That is exactly what I tell myself if I feel down.