HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray [misc discussion]

[e²Studios]

Lets not forget it's uncertain alot of blu-ray players will be able to play V1.1 of the new blu-ray standard, and certainly early units won't be able to.

At least the PS3 should be able to via a firmware/software upgrade though.

Thats making it out to be a lot more than it really is. The whole article is "doom and gloom". Most BD players can be flashed, in fact I believe all of them can. BD 1.1 isnt "new discs wont work", its that some features may not work if you don't have the current version of firmware on your BD player. This has already come up a few times with the first run players, some of the newer discs out now had issues with them if people didn't flash the firmware before playing the disc.

BD 1.1 is an improvement, and it sure as hell isnt the doom and gloom that the person in that article wanted to make people believe. that article is pure FUD at its best, wouldnt be surprised if that appeared on MSNBC.com

Ed

 

[ClassicMac247]

i still like dvd personally.

 

[MRU]

wouldnt be surprised if that appeared on MSNBC.com

Ed

www.tech.co.uk

(oh and they are generally pro Blu-Ray before people start giving out needlessly.)



The point being - does the consumer need even more confusion? - when they have settled on a format, then it should sit as it is, and not change leaving them with the posibility of the format they banked on could still be redundant in a few years time because Sony or whoever changed the BR standard.


and from CNET
who disagree with your assertion the most CAN be firmware flashed.

Does Blu-ray Profile 1.1 make past players obsolete?
Posted by Matthew Moskovciak

Today is the official end of the "grace period" for Blu-ray manufacturers, which means that all Blu-ray players released from now on must comply with Blu-ray Profile 1.1 (also known as Final Standard Profile and BD-Video Profile 1.1). Of course, that doesn't mean that Profile 1.0 Blu-ray players still can't be sold, and if you walk into your local electronics store over the next few months, you're likely to see both Profile 1.0 and Profile 1.1 Blu-ray players on the shelf. So what's the big difference between Profile 1.0 and Profile 1.1?


Profile 1.0 vs. Profile 1.1

There are several different hardware requirements (see the chart below), but it basically boils down to picture-in-picture functionality. All Blu-ray players up until this point have been Profile 1.0 and have lacked the secondary video and audio decoders necessary to play a smaller video in the corner while also playing the main high-def movie in the background. With the notable exception of the Sony PlayStation 3, Profile 1.0 players cannot be upgraded via firmware to become Profile 1.1 players.

Because Profile 1.0 players lacked this functionality, movie studios have understandably not included picture-in-picture functionality on any current Blu-ray disc. Fox has announced that it will release its first Profile 1.1-enabled disc, Sunshine, in the first quarter of 2008. And as more Profile 1.1 players become available, we expect more Profile 1.1 discs to be released.


Profile 1.1 vs. Profile 2.0

Despite Profile 1.1 also being known as Final Standard Profile, there's actually still another Blu-ray specification, Profile 2.0, also known as BD-Live. The reason it's called BD-Live is that the major difference between profiles 1.1 and 2.0 is that Profile 2.0 requires that the player has an Internet connection. Although some current Blu-ray players have an Ethernet port, these are strictly for firmware updates and can't be used to access downloadable content.

Again, since Internet connectivity isn't a mandatory feature on current Blu-ray players, movie studios have not included any Internet-enabled functionality on any current Blu-ray discs to date and there are currently no Internet-enabled discs announced for the future. Internet connectivity could be used to download additional movie content, download trailers, or enable purchasing movie-related merchandise. The other requirement of Profile 2.0 is increasing the mandatory local storage capacity to 1GB, which is presumably to accommodate downloaded content.


Technical hardware requirements

Features Profile 1.0 Profile 1.1 Profile 2.0
Required local storage None 256 MB 1 G
Secondary video decoder Optional Mandatory Mandatory
Secondary audio decoder Optional Mandatory Mandatory
Internet connectivity Optional Optional Mandatory
Chart compiled using EMediaLive's excellent Authoritative BD FAQ and Wikipedia.


HD DVD's advantage

As Blu-ray continues to get its act together on hardware requirements, there's no denying that HD DVD has had it right from the start. The HD DVD specification has required every player--from the very first HD-A1--to include secondary audio and video decoders, 128MB of local storage, and an Ethernet jack. Because movie studios know that special features will be accessible on every HD DVD player, several movies, such as 300 and Blood Diamond, already have picture-in-picture and Internet-enabled functionality. Of course, HD DVD's superior hardware requirements are just one factor out of many in its fight against Blu-ray--but in this brutal high-def format war, every little bit helps.


Should I wait for Profile 1.1 or 2.0?

Profile 1.1 players certainly don't make older Profile 1.0 players obsolete. While movie enthusiasts lust over special features and commentary tracks, many people are completely uninterested in investing even more time in a movie. If you already have a Profile 1.0 player, it should be able to play all the new Profile 1.1 discs without a problem--you just won't be access to some of the special features. On the other hand, if you don't have a Blu-ray player yet and you have any interest in special features, there's no reason not to look at the newly released Panasonic DMP-BD30 or wait for new Profile 1.1 players from other manufacturers. The same logic applies to Profile 2.0--you don't need to wait unless you want to be able to access the Internet-enabled features on the new discs. If you're still nervous about your Blu-ray player becoming obsolete, the best bet is to go with a PlayStation 3, which already has Internet connectivity and will likely be Profile 1.1 compliant.

For more information on the format war between Blu-ray and HD DVD, check out CNET's quick guide to HD DVD vs. Blu-ray.

 

[0098386]

Well that just makes everything needlessly complicated. Why didn't they settle on a standard before launch.

It's all very annoying. Before HD was properly launched in the UK, shops would stock TVs that they believed could run HD and thus given a certain moniker (forgotten what it was). HD Capable or something. Before the standards were set.
The along comes HDMI, but nope. We're up to 1.3 of that. Another BR version on the way too?

For ****s sake just settle on a standard before launch.

 

[MRU]

For ****s sake just settle on a standard before launch.

Exactly. Consumers just don't need this **** period. All it does is put them off, and if anything protract the take up of the new format.

 

[takao]

jesus christ looks like not only there are 12 versions of HD TV out there and HDMI standards but also different blu-ray specifications etc.

seriously this whole thing is such a freaking mess i would really love to to smack my words of "one video connector, one media format at one frequency, and one disc format running on one codec" into some higher manager face

if a media disc player in your living room needs firmware updates then i would say it's quite a crappy design


seriously there is no reason why this stuff _has_ to be this god damn awefully complicated

edit: and the sad thing is that even all those hdtv stuff will sooner or later come into our house which means combined with digital satellite and DVB-T and it's quirks will make it even worse

edit2: the current setup is truly horrible in terms of cables anyway .. composite here, optical cable there, scart on the other side etc. that gonna be a huge pain to upgrade .. my head is hurting right now

 

[0098386]

Exactly. Consumers just don't need this **** period. All it does is put them off, and if anything protract the take up of the new format.

It's just serving the A/V fanatics is all. No wonder people here don't care for HDTV when you have to build together a jigsaw puzzle of a setup.

I miss SCART

 

[JackAxe]

I figured I would wait regardless on a new HD set, because of the ever changing standards and the slow coming of content -- that and I see video imperfections from a mile away on any set and HD sets tend to exaggerated this to the point of nausea, even with HD content. I'm really starting to think most people are BLIND, especially the early HD adopters when "all" content looked like tremendous vomit!

My CRT in my living room still looks great when compared to any set, if it weren't old as in starting to occasionally black out, I wouldn't be looking for a new set until FED TV is released, but something tells me I'll need a new set early next year.

I don't get the MS love in this forum, but on that note, I don't get the Sony love either. Both companies have some nasty issues that need to be resolved. Sony with its big-brother tactics when it comes to digital music and MS with its rampant mediocritizing of any product they get their mediocre hands on, that's of course after they've pushed/slandered/bought out the little guy who was making a WAY better product. Then they go and make a love deal with Universal saying f-off to all consumers, because we are obviously THIEFS. Really people, look at the EVIL you're supporting, not just its superficial marketing fluff -- I'm leering more so at the HD DVD camp!

<]=)

 

[takao]

It's just serving the A/V fanatics is all. No wonder people here don't care for HDTV when you have to build together a jigsaw puzzle of a setup.

I miss SCART

yeah too bad they have to screw up hdmi yet again with different version and specifications etc. and a step price ... i could have really been a true successor

that said i'm really looking forward when they can really deliver all that content over the internet ... that would make it possible to do away with all that stuff again .. imagine that: plugging in a single cable ... just like 30 years ago and the only other cables would be those for the speakers ... and of course since this is the gaming forum a single cable to connect your favorite game console

 

[JackAxe]

One cable to rule them all! RJ11 RULES!!!

I have a SCART cable on the back of my LCD TV, it makes me feel dirty every time I brush up against it when unplugging my DVI cable. To me it looks like one of those arse-ugly parallel printer ports.

<]=)

 

[0098386]

Oh there's doubt it's old and ugly. But RGB Scart was the best thing since sliced bread till digital connections started to replace everything. Back when I was a kid me and my dad hunted around for a Scart cable for my Amiga. Oh the quality it brought over RF

HDMI could have been the next Scart. One connection. Shame really.

 

[sikkinixx]

Michael Bay says it's all MS' fault

http://kotaku.com/gaming/hd-era/mic...over-hd+dvd-calls-blu+ray-superior-329967.php


DAMN YOU GATES!!!!!!!!!!! *KAHHHHHNNNNNNNN*!!!

 

[MRU]

Michael Bay says it's all MS' fault

LOL! Michael Bay is so anally retentive, each morning he wakes up to a nice view of his colon.

He probably blames M$ for the utter crappness that was Pearl Harbor too. (oh and Transformers is the most over rated and hyped piece of gutter fodder made in the last 5 years, and this coming from a real TF fanatic)



Seriously though if he thinks M$ want to see it fail so we can all go to digital downloads then 'HOORAY' for M$ for having the vision to see where the future actually is.

Oh wait Apple too have seen this future, hence the introduction of Apple branded TV hub apple:TV) which can download content from the internet and stream trailers and such.

The future IS digital downloads, and this hoopla that the public genuinely prefer QUALITY over convenience has already been destroyed with iTunes and MP3's proving less superior audio quality has changed the way music is distributed and no one gave a rats ass about DVD-Audio or SACD.

I have said it many many many times before. I predict one format will win the battle

(much like how minidisc bested philips dcc, but where are they now?)
(or how VCD and Laserdisc destroyed VHS.. oh wait they didn't... )

But neither HD-DVD or Blu-ray will win the war.

It will be a cheaper, easily distributed format, and one that isn't necessarily better quality.

 

[monkeytap]

Exactly. Consumers just don't need this **** period. All it does is put them off, and if anything protract the take up of the new format.

whatever. its not that big of a deal at all, its just additional features...features that 99% of the consumers wont use anyways, I mean seriously...who cant live without watching the director talking about the movie in the corner while the movie is playing?

certainly any early adopters who feel they are missing out would not have a problem upgrading their player, most by firmware, and if some have to buy a new player cry me a river.

I understand it sucks that features get added and your hardware might not keep up, but thats technology! and most blu-ray players are ps3s which are a breeze to update (built in wireless)

and macrumors cant read this cause he ignores me, but he was posting about the coming 51 GB hd-dvd disc and how it makes hd-dvd the best format. he left out the fact that absolutely no hd-dvd players even being manufactured NOW would be able to play it. he seems quite biased towards hd-dvd.

 

[monkeytap]

I have said it many many many times before. I predict one format will win the battle

But neither HD-DVD or Blu-ray will win the war.

It will be a cheaper, easily distributed format, and one that isn't necessarily better quality.

did you see the sales numbers from black friday week? blu-ray has won it, its just being dragged along by microsoft so they can hopefully secure the future of digital downloads, knowing its not ready yet. michael bay knows his ****:

"That is why Microsoft is handing out $100 million dollar checks to studios just embrace the HD DVD and not the leading, and superior Blu Ray. They want confusion in the market until they perfect the digital downloads. Time will tell and you will see the truth."

you just got done saying you hate the ********, and now your sticking up for microsoft? they can only drag this format war on a little bit longer. other manufacturers have stopped production, warner is eyeing exclusivity, the dominos are falling....

 

[MRU]

whatever. its not that big of a deal at all, its just additional features...features that 99% of the consumers wont use anyways, I mean seriously...who cant live without watching the director talking about the movie in the corner while the movie is playing?

------ he seems quite biased towards hd-dvd.

Bless. People have just spent $$$ but they can't play all the content on their discs, but it doesnt matter...

How much denial can one person muster ?


I'm certainly not biased towards HD-DVD. I own Blu Ray and a dozen or so movies on the format. Read my previous post. I don't believe either format will be the true successor to DVD.. period

And if you can't have the grace to refer to me using my full username, please stay out of my thread.

 

[sikkinixx]

And if you can't have the grace to refer to me using my full username, please stay out of my thread.

Oh snap!

PS- this is in no way meant to call you a pig or a girl or whatever, it was just a funny picture

 

[MRU]

Oh snap!

LOL! I got the Jenny Jones finger snap down to an art too

 

[0098386]

"That is why Microsoft is handing out $100 million dollar checks to studios just embrace the HD DVD and not the leading, and superior Blu Ray. They want confusion in the market until they perfect the digital downloads. Time will tell and you will see the truth."

I couldn't care less about physical HD media, but when I last glanced over the Wiki page for HD-DVD it has more standards, less "optional" points than Blue-Ray has.

As I've said many times here, I'm with MRU on the digital download front. I get all my PC games through Steam now. If there was a good video delivery system I'd use that over DVD rent sites.
This coming from someone on a crippling 512kbps connection shared in a house where someone else is always using the internet.

 

[monkeytap]

Bless. People have just spent $$$ but they can't play all the content on their discs, but it doesnt matter...

How much denial can one person muster ?

I'm certainly not biased towards HD-DVD. I own Blu Ray and a dozen or so movies on the format. Read my previous post. I don't believe either format will be the true successor to DVD.. period

And if you can't have the grace to refer to me using my full username, please stay out of my thread.

the important part of your argument is that its all extra! the people who spent the $$$ will still be able to watch the movie, the special features, in glorious 1080p. thats what they usually want, not to watch PIP special features, IMO.

in the future you see, these features would not be available period. so you cant act like they are getting screwed because they choose to adopt early and now cant do PIP on their player (very few people).

in your future the files would be mad compressed so it doesn't take a month to download an HD movie. you wouldnt get special features, or special interactivity like blu-ray and hd-dvd offer. I believe there will be a successor to DVD on a physical media, and would bet a lot of money on it and if its gonna be either blu-ray or hd-dvd it will be blu-ray (pending a crazy move by warner) IMO the bandwith and consumer is not ready for what you speak of, MacRumorUser.

 

[MRU]

IMO the bandwith and consumer is not ready for what you speak of, MacRumorUser.

I agree. But maybe what you should have added is...

"IMO the bandwith and consumer is not ready YET."

How many people are downloading illegal copies of movies from torrent sites, and burning them to disc? The general populace really are not as quality conscience as we'd like to think.

Even if it takes another 4 or 5 years (hypothetically) before we have a codec that can compress a 2 hour HD movie into 4 or 5GB to good quality and resolution, and we will certainly need that long for broadband speeds to increase - then I would still put my all my money of digital distribution winning at the end of it all.

 

[P-Worm]

Even if it takes another 4 or 5 years (hypothetically) before we have a codec that can compress a 2 hour HD movie into 4 or 5GB to good quality and resolution, and we will certainly need that long for broadband speeds to increase - then I would still put my all my money of digital distribution winning at the end of it all.

I think it will take much longer than that. Think of your average consumer and how willing they are to redo their setup with Wi-Fi, new boxes, and then get digital downloads. Heck, look how long it took for VHS to get replaced! (as a somewhat comical sidenote, I have never had a VHS player. For my family it was Beta -> Laserdisk -> DVD).

I personally am all for digital downloads, but I think it is going to take some serious time before that becomes the norm. I think this format war will end - hopefully in Blu-Ray's favor in my opinion - and after the format has run its course, digital downloads will start to emerge in the mainstream.

P-Worm

 

[monkeytap]

I agree. But maybe what you should have added is...

"IMO the bandwith and consumer is not ready YET."

How many people are downloading illegal copies of movies from torrent sites, and burning them to disc? The general populace really are not as quality conscience as we'd like to think.

Even if it takes another 4 or 5 years (hypothetically) before we have a codec that can compress a 2 hour HD movie into 4 or 5GB to good quality and resolution, and we will certainly need that long for broadband speeds to increase - then I would still put my all my money of digital distribution winning at the end of it all.

true, I should have added the YET. but are you thinking that DVD will stay the dominant format for the next 5+ years? with all those shiny new HD tvs out there I just dont think it will happen. in a way we could both be right, i.e. blu-ray succedds DVD, but has a lifetime of roughly half before digital downloads pushs it out.

people are torrenting because the benefit outweighs the cost. and im not sure if people torrenting are considered "general populace" (I guess?) but I agree, they are more concerned with saving a buck over quality.

but I consider the general population to be different, and I still think they like it the old school way (stop on the way home from work and pick up a movie) and appreciate the quality and convenience of physical media.

 

[Antares]

I personally am all for digital downloads, but I think it is going to take some serious time before that becomes the norm. I think this format war will end - hopefully in Blu-Ray's favor in my opinion - and after the format has run its course, digital downloads will start to emerge in the mainstream.

P-Worm

I agree. I don't see downloadable HD movies happening for at least 15 years. If you look at the big picture, of all consumers worldwide, there is still quite a large portion of the population that can barely use a computer. And there's a vast majority that doesn't use even use iTunes or any sort of digital music. It will eventually happen....but not for a looong time. Not everybody is as leading edge as you will come across on MacRumors. And I personally still see downloadable content as a step back from what you get with physical media...you lose all the extra features and content.

 

[gkarris]

And I personally stll see downloadable content as a step back from what you get with physical media...you lose all the extra features and content.

Not to mention all the DRM. What happends when a new format or computer OS is out and won't play your files? Rebuy them? We'll always be able to play physical DVDs...

That's the reason I'm weary about buying games from XBox Live Arcade. What happends when the XBox goes collectible? How do you play them on an old platform? What about a different machine? Can you still hook it up do XBox live for authorization, say 15 years from now? It's not like you can just put a disc or cart in.

What if MS decides to "switch off" playing the older games to make you buy "updated" ones?