Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash

[flexengineer]

You sound like you'd still be clinging to punch cards and BASIC if you could, because it's easier...flash being easier ≠ flash being better

I did not get that.

Since flexengineer purposely misquoted me in order to obscure my post, here it is again:

You are over reacting and being an annoyance to the conversation. I did not quote you, if I did it was an innocent mistake, I was quoting someone else so why in hell would I put it on your back in order to keep talking about my numbers or whatever you said, it's crazy. There is no need to start a drama scene or send me private message like if I was at your disposition or something, get help! I was quoting someone else who was quoting another source therefore the name was not added to the quote so I might have made a mistake. Peace out!

Flexengineer, are you comfortable with Adobe controlling all video on the open web? Yes or no.

Yes, because Adobe does not control much or at east not as much as you think. Flash is a jewel that was carefully passed from Macromedia to Adobe, I know for fact that Macromedia's executives were particularly careful as to who they will sell the company to, they turned down 6 billion from Microsoft knowing that they will just hurt Flash or kill it, they sold to Adobe for 3 or 4 billion instead with contractual guarantees that Flash and particularly Flex will be kept and maintained well.

I have seen first hand how much resources Adobe allocates to free or open source projects, putting as much money as they do for commercial products, good examples of that are Open Screen Project (OSP) and Open Source Media Framework (OSMF). It's just a good company and I trust them, way more that anything remotely close to Apple and their false pretenses. Let's not even talk about W3C with Apple, Google, Microsoft, Adobe, Mozilla and others all debating about how they are going to mess things up for everyone else.

Developers chose to move along with Flash to Adobe, there was a lot of concerns during the transition, I am myself a Macromedia supporter before to be an Adobe supporter, but it turns out that right now Adobe owns Flash and I like the company, but if things would have not went well we could have switched to another technology, or nothing refrain us from doing so if necessary in the future.

If only you knew the attention that Adobe gives to the developers community and how they empower us instead of controlling us, you would not be so concerned. I know Adobe and I know Flash and I can tell you do not know them much based on your speech. Keep believing Apple, there is nothing that will make 3,000,000 developers move from Adobe at this time, Flash could not be more bullish right now. Consumers are the real victims.

 

[briankeith513]

I will say this, coming from a few Android phones with Flash, I can see the obvious advantages of using flash. I also know that some people are worried that it can slow down their phone or use up battery life. I think that their should be a way implemented that would allow you to turn adobe flash on or off, so we have the choice. We all have our opinions, but one thing is fact, and that's if we go to a website that uses adobe flash, we will either be able to see nothing at all, get an error message, or just see some sort of symbol instead of the content that we were looking for, and that's a disadvantage.

 

[BaldiMac]

I will say this, coming from a few Android phones with Flash, I can see the obvious advantages of using flash. I also know that some people are worried that it can slow down their phone or use up battery life. I think that their should be a way implemented that would allow you to turn adobe flash on or off, so we have the choice. We all have our opinions, but one thing is fact, and that's if we go to a website that uses adobe flash, we will either be able to see nothing at all, get an error message, or just see some sort of symbol instead of the content that we were looking for, and that's a disadvantage.

You forgot the fourth option that is becoming more and more common lately. The same content is served by the website using alternatives to Flash.

Don't underestimate the fact that the disadvantage of not being able to view Flash content isn't just a problem for consumers. It's also a problem for the content providers. They exist to distribute content, usually for money. If a consumer can't see the content, that is bad for the content provider as well.

 

[mKTank]

Flash isn't going away for a long time, and it will be years before HTML5 matches its capabilities. It's a big problem for content providers when HTML5 still can't do a fraction of what Flash can. Also, have you seen how the iPad handles interactive HTML5? It's atrocious. It's not even right to call it an alternative, and won't be for many years.

6% of the market can't kill a major web standard.

Sent from my Samsung Focus using Board Express

 

[BaldiMac]

Flash isn't going away for a long time, and it will be years before HTML5 matches its capabilities.

Definitely. I think most rational people would agree with this.

It's a big problem for content providers when HTML5 still can't do a fraction of what Flash can.

Not really. They can use Flash for that stuff.

Also, have you seen how the iPad handles interactive HTML5? It's atrocious. It's not even right to call it an alternative, and won't be for many years.

What exactly do you mean by "interactive HTML5?" That's a pretty broad term. Obviously, many interactive HTML5 elements work wonderfully on an iPad.

6% of the market can't kill a major web standard.

Flash is not a web standard. But you know that.

But, yes, the small percentage of the market filled by iOS is not going to kill Flash. Which is why it is laughable that people are convinced that Apple is at war with Flash.

 

[Nishi100]

Also, have you seen how the iPad handles interactive HTML5? It's atrocious. It's not even right to call it an alternative, and won't be for many years.

I agree. The iPad can't even display full HTML 5, let alone the full web. Apple felt it was necessary to "skin" all the HTML5 video players to all the same. They should, and still can, make it the full HTML5 experience. How are developers supposed to make HTML5 rich web pages, when the iPad can't even display basic HTML5.

Apple needs to give us:

- Full HTML5 experience, so it looks the same as it does on a desktop Mac, running Safari 5; if Apple really want an airplay button, then - oh, wait a minute, you can't airplay from safari to TV.
- Full Flash experience, for those users, that want it. In fact, Apple could let it be its own independent app, like Atomic, so the users can blame Adobe, (who made the app) for all the slow downs, crashes and battery loss. But, flash IS getting better, considering how bad it was for mobile in 2007, it's come a long way.

 

[dccorona]

Flash isn't going away for a long time, and it will be years before HTML5 matches its capabilities. It's a big problem for content providers when HTML5 still can't do a fraction of what Flash can. Also, have you seen how the iPad handles interactive HTML5? It's atrocious. It's not even right to call it an alternative, and won't be for many years.

6% of the market can't kill a major web standard.

Sent from my Samsung Focus using Board Express

I'm jealous...I wanted a samsung focus but they were out of stock and I'd have had to wait until late january to get one so I went with the HTC surround instead...how is it?

 

[mKTank]

I'm jealous...I wanted a samsung focus but they were out of stock and I'd have had to wait until late january to get one so I went with the HTC surround instead...how is it?

Effing awesome is how I'd describe it. I urge you to find one in a store and play around with it. Silky smooth. The HTC phones have only one advantage over the Samsung phones, and that is the exclusive apps. That said, the Focus/Omnia wipe the floor with all the HTC phones in all other categories. Screens are better, battery life is better, they're lighter, thinner, and actually faster. AND the Focus has expandable memory via MicroSD. So yeah, the Focus specifically is basically the master race when it comes to WP7 devices, but the Omnia is very similar if not essentially the same thing overall. If I were you, though, I'd hang on to the Surround and wait 'till Nokia comes out with some phones. Then sell it and get a Nokia phone.

BaldiMac, what I meant by the iPad not playing interactive HTML very well, I'm talking about menus and animations. It's horrendously slow. The Apple HTML5 demos were massively optimized for the iPad, but seriously? Go find some HTML5 demos. Half if not 3/4 of the demos won't play properly on the iPad. And the ones that do play, specifically having to do with animations, are just laughably slow. If Apple want HTML5 to be the alternative to Flash on the iPad, so be it. But at least do a proper implementation of HTML5 that doesn't suck ass.

 

[flexengineer]

You forgot the fourth option that is becoming more and more common lately. The same content is served by the website using alternatives to Flash.

Yes but all what that do is to had to the development time and cost of all content provider or hosting platforms, I documented that extensively already with articles and interview of techs at Youtube and Vimeo, it is also very well documented on my blog. Apple pushed it too early and has no intention to make it work because the goal has always been, starting with the ban of Flash, to refrain the browser from having any commercial value. Keep that in mind and as things unfold it should become clear.

They exist to distribute content, usually for money. If a consumer can't see the content, that is bad for the content provider as well.

Exactly, which is the main if not the only reason that everyone is trying to make HTML5 work, most would not even bother with HTML5 until at least 2 to 3 years from now. You personally praised this, you said that the ban of Flash pushes (it actually forces) developers to implement HTML5, but you have no consideration for the cost of that on us and the consumer. That is why I guarantee you HTML5 as we think of it is dead in the egg, even its own instigator is giving up. Every professional developer I know is tired of HTML5 and start to get tired with Apple BS as well, no matter how much of Apple consumers they are. Soon Apple and its friends will realize how alone and boring they are with HTML5. That might push Flash on iPad at least, the tablets coming on the market are showing off pretty mean Flash interfaces for both web based and native apps.

6% of the market can't kill a major web

They will conveniently argue that Flash is not a W3C standard so we should not give it that much importance, non the less they try to rewrite history but they really think that developers at large will buy it, which amazes me the most. Once again, I feel for the user.

Not really. They can use Flash for that stuff.

And double our development cost just to accommodate a megalomaniac CEO and an armada of outsider on Linux, yes sure.

What exactly do you mean by "interactive HTML5?" That's a pretty broad term. Obviously, many interactive HTML5 elements work wonderfully on an iPad.

I posted before a side by side video between the iPad and the PlayBook, the iPad response to HTML5 is an absolute joke, we can't deny that, I have seen it with my own eyes and I can post the video again if you try to call me a liar.

 

[Anotoneher]

When I was on Android I LOVED the idea of having Flash on the new Android OS. Then when I installed it... I then realized 99% of advertisements on websites are flash based and it KILLED my browser experience.

So that being said, I hope we never have flash on the iPhone.

 

[BaldiMac]

Yes but all what that do is to had to the development time and cost of all content provider or hosting platforms, I documented that extensively already with articles and interview of techs at Youtube and Vimeo, it is also very well documented on my blog.

I'm very sad that you would have more work to do. I imagine that is horrible for you.

Apple pushed it too early, has no intention to make it work because the goal has always been, starting with the ban of Flash, to refrain the browser from having any commercial value. Keep that in mind and as things unfold it should become clear.

I appreciate you sharing your psychic insight and the information that you received from your crystal ball. Although I'm not sure how Apple massive plan to devalue the web content is supposed to work with only 1.5% of web traffic under their control.

Exactly, which is the main if not only reason that everyone is trying to make HTML5 work because they are forced so, most would not even bother with HTML5 before a couple years from now. You personally praised this, you said that the ban of Flash push developers to implement HTML5 but you have no consideration for the cost of that on us and the consumer. That is why I guarantee you HTML5 as we think of it is dead in the egg, even its own instigator is giving up. Every professional developer I know is tired of it and start to get tired with Apple BS as well, not matter how much of Apple consumers they are. Now Apple and its friends are going to realize how alone and boring they are with HTML5. That might push Flash on iPad at least, the tablets coming up are showing off a pretty mean Flash interface.

Apple is not HTML5. I appreciate your concern for fellow developers.

They will conveniently argue that Flash is not a W3C standard so we should not give it that much importance, non the less they try to rewrite history but they really think that developers at large will buy it, which amazes me the most. Once again, I feel for the user.

Oh, bull. As I suggested before, you really shouldn't make up the other side of the argument. There are plenty of good reasons to continue to use flash without having to resort to fallacies.

And double our development cost just to accommodate a megalomaniac CEO and an armada of outsider on Linux, yes sure.

Because name calling and stereotyping are the basis of an good argument. If you actually read what you you quoted, I actually suggested using Flash. How does that double your development cost? Aren't you a flash developer?

I posted before a side by side video between the iPad and the PlayBook, the iPad response to HTML5 is an absolute joke, we can't deny that, I have seen it with my own eyes and I can post the video again if you try to call me a liar.

For a developer, your understanding of HTML5 is an absolute joke. Some things done in HTML5 are faster than Flash. Some things are slower. For the most part, other than video, the types of content that are created with Flash are often more efficient in Flash than HTML5 today.

But to make a the claim that HTML5 performance is "an absolute joke" is just ignorant. There is much more to HTML5 than canvas.

 

[flexengineer]

When I was on Android I LOVED the idea of having Flash on the new Android OS. Then when I installed it... I then realized 99% of advertisements on websites are flash based and it KILLED my browser experience.

I really do not understand what your point is because you should be blaming advertisers, not Flash. Also advertisers can and do deliver annoying ads using HTML5, as annoying as Flash if not even more because you can't use a flash blocker now, can you? Most annoying catchy advertisement and pop-up have their root on Javascript and most rely on it, now what is the language that backs up HTML5? Javascript.

If anyone tells you that HTML5 is somewhat protected against that it is a lie. It is a non sense to say that horrible ads are an inheritance of Flash. If advertisers want to catch your attention with annoying ads they will do so with both HTML5 and Flash, it's just a better development environment for professionals with Flash.

If you actually read what you you quoted, I actually suggested using Flash. How does that double your development cost? Aren't you a flash developer?

It double if not tiple the total development time and cost of my clients they have to pay me to do it in Flash and pay someone else to do it with HTML5 with no added value, just accommodating Steve Jobs and ideologists.

You can say whatever you want there are companies out there who do real business, they only got fooled by Steve Jobs for a few months and once their researchers came back saying "stay out of it" all Flash developers in the country started to get busy again. It lasted 3 months.

HTML5 does not create any value and double the development cost and time of all content providers, hosting platforms and any corporation or start-up with products based on Flash. HTML5 does not deliver and is not a viable alternative to Flash for most cases and most businesses active in the application market gained consciousness of that, that is a fact.

A blog is one thing, an engaging interactive product is another, even though you can do with HTML5 some of the stuff Flash is used for, it is very limited and it will take twice as much time to develop (if it takes 2 weeks with Flash, it will take 1 month with HTML5 so client ends up paying 2 weeks of work for most of the market and 1 month for Apple's share only and ends up with 2 code base to maintain.

Apple put itself in a situation where companies are starting to allocate most of their budgets to Flex and AIR projects reaching everyone on every screen with one code (but Apple's consumers), in parallel they are spending limited budget for limited HTML5 version of their product AND charge for them on iDevices even when the real deal is free on Android platform. How long do you think it is going to take before customers strongly respond to that? I personally believe it is happening right now.

 

[BaldiMac]

It double if not tiple the total development time and cost of my clients they have to pay me to do it in Flash and pay someone else to do it with HTML5 with no added value, just accommodating Steve Jobs and ideologists.

You can say whatever you want there are companies out there who do real business, they only got fooled by Steve Jobs for a few months and once their researchers came back saying "stay out of it" all Flash developers in the country started to get busy again. It lasted 3 months.

HTML5 does not create any value and double the development cost and time of all content providers, hosting platforms and any corporation or start-up with products based on Flash. HTML5 does not deliver and is not a viable alternative to Flash for most cases and most businesses active in the application market gained consciousness of that, that is a fact.

A blog is one thing, an engaging interactive product is another, even though you can do with HTML5 some of the stuff Flash is used for, it is very limited and it will take twice as much time to develop (if it takes 2 weeks with Flash, it will take 1 month with HTML5 so client ends up paying 2 weeks of work for most of the market and 1 month for Apple's share only and ends up with 2 code base to maintain.

Apple put itself in a situation where companies are starting to allocate most of their budgets to Flex and AIR projects reaching everyone on every screen with one code (but Apple's consumers), in parallel they are spending limited budget for limited HTML5 version of their product AND charge for them on iDevices even when the real deal is free on Android platform. How long do you think it is going to take before customers strongly respond to that? I personally believe it is happening right now.

Wow. You really just rant over anything. Please read carefully. In the post that inspired your rant, I suggested doing the project in Flash. Only Flash. No mention of HTML5 at all.

No wonder you think Apple is out to get you. You just assume whatever is necessary to justify your outrage.

 

[mKTank]

I think when flex was talking about HTML5 performance, he was talking about how the iPad handles HTML5. You can't deny that the iPad's HTML5 implementation is rubbish for everything but video.

Sent from my Samsung Focus using Board Express

 

[BaldiMac]

I think when flex was talking about HTML5 performance, he was talking about how the iPad handles HTML5. You can't deny that the iPad's HTML5 implementation is rubbish for everything but video.

I think he is talking about using HTML5 for animation using canvas and other technologies. The problem is that animation and video are not the only things HTML5 does. So to say "the iPad's HTML5 implementation is rubbish for everything but video" is not accurate. A subset of HTML5 and related technologies has performance issues on the iPad. Mostly for the things that Flash is good at.

 

[milani]

I think he is talking about using HTML5 for animation using canvas and other technologies. The problem is that animation and video are not the only things HTML5 does. So to say "the iPad's HTML5 implementation is rubbish for everything but video" is not accurate. A subset of HTML5 and related technologies has performance issues on the iPad. Mostly for the things that Flash is good at.

To add to your point:

The point of HTML is that it ensures graceful degradation. The iPad may not have the processor power to render those javascript events (it's probably not actually canvas), but the developer can easily deliver a different style/presentation specific to the iPad thanks to the separation of elements (the architectural philosophy behind the W3)

The point of web standards is to split web content between structure, presentation, and behavior - or HTML, CSS, and javascript. The idea here is that at its most obvious degradation - just HTML - the content can still be consumed. This philosophy acknowledges that the content is the most important part, and the styles and behaviors that add character to a page (like design style) are of secondary importance.

That's why HTML, CSS, and javascript are such an excellent combination. They assure that anyone can consume the content on any device, but allow for graceful degradation in cases where hardware is limited or load times are an issue. Plugins do not allow for graceful degradation: either they work at 100% or they don't work at all.

That's why you don't see any broken plugin boxes when the stylesheet fails to load or when javascript is blocked (when implemented properly by the dev, of course). The point of HTML, CSS, and JS is to maximize the ability of the user to consume the content.

 

[dccorona]

I posted before a side by side video between the iPad and the PlayBook, the iPad response to HTML5 is an absolute joke, we can't deny that, I have seen it with my own eyes and I can post the video again if you try to call me a liar.

I'd actually be curious to see that, I've never seen an iPad an PlayBook side by side...it'd be interesting to say the least

 

[flexengineer]

I'd actually be curious to see that, I've never seen an iPad an PlayBook side by side...it'd be interesting to say the least

BlackBerry PlayBook vs iPad Comparison Side by Side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_GXvP2dL8U

The point of web standards is to split web content between structure, presentation, and behavior - or HTML, CSS, and javascript.

It could sound like you are describing a free product from Adobe called Cairngorm:
http://sourceforge.net/adobe/cairngorm/home/

What you describe is also applied to Flash with Flex and a strict separation of layer with standard like CSS for styling , XML for data, SOAP and REST for web services, any application server (PHP, ASP.NET, Java, Ruby, ColdFusion ...), with all the extra no other environment has such as the AMF protocol.

The idea here is that at its most obvious degradation - just HTML - the content can still be consumed. This philosophy acknowledges that the content is the most important part, and the styles and behaviors that add character to a page (like design style) are of secondary importance.

I disagree, check the video above it's a very good example of how important user experience is, nobody wants play data in HTML like the iPad version of CBS.

That's why HTML, CSS, and javascript are such an excellent combination. They assure that anyone can consume the content on any device.

Flash content can be consumed on any device as well.

That's why you don't see any broken plugin boxes when the stylesheet fails to load or when javascript is blocked (when implemented properly by the dev, of course). The point of HTML, CSS, and JS is to maximize the ability of the user to consume the content.

This is not realistic, Javascript and HTML5 will generate as much crash and failure as any other technology, just wait for the masses to get a hand on it.

 

[falconeight]

This is hilarious! Steve says we don't need flash applites follow.

 

[rquick]

It is always fascinating to watch as different people all try to argue that their opinion is the only one that matters and everyone else is just wrong - complete with facts. In the long run, the truth is pretty simple. Flash is just no longer relevant to me and I don't have to care whether it is relevant to anybody else. I noticed the loss of Flash a little more often when I got my first iPhone back in 2007. But now, I can say I no longer notice it is missing and haven't for some time. I spend quite a bit of time on the web with my iPad and I can't remember the last time I noticed that there was something missing from a useful website. I just don't seem to see as many ads. As long as Apple is still selling the devices and the overwhelming majority of users are satisfied with them, I am puzzled at why anyone would think Apple needs to add Flash capability to iOS. I know there are a number of people who seem fulfilled by being able to point out what they perceive to be deficiencies in Apple products, but the truth is that that overwhelming majority I mentioned above (me and my 20+ million closest friends) (just a guess by the way - a few too many to count - wave everybody), just doesn't give a rat's behind what you think. The raw and simple truth is that the lack of Flash in iOS is not now, and never has been anything more than an academic issue for the average user and minor irritation at the worst. It does, however seem to be a huge issue for the Flash ad developers who are seeing their markets die. I feel your pain, but my purpose in accessing the Internet is not to support the developers of Flash ads or the purveyors of Flash video. I am happy (pleased in fact) to do without those things and see no other value to Flash.

 

[flexengineer]

It does, however seem to be a huge issue for the Flash ad developers who are seeing their markets die. I feel your pain, but my purpose in accessing the Internet is not to support the developers of Flash ads or the purveyors of Flash video.

You just called me an ad developer, you are funny:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/flexdesigner

If you think ads is the main use of Flash you are only 5 or 6 years behind.

 

[StructAural]

Like most things in life. I'd like the choice. If I want to enable a buggy, cpu hogging extension so that I can view that video that is particularly relevant to my life at the time or get that phone number or email off of that Flash only company website I'd like to be able to. With a simple switch to turn it off again.

I can handle it not being on my iPhone but it certainly puts me off buying an iPad.

 

[BaldiMac]

BlackBerry PlayBook vs iPad Comparison Side by Side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_GXvP2dL8U

Holy crap! A year old device is much slower than a demo of of an unreleased product! Why isn't this front page news!

Flash content can be consumed on any device as well.

Why do you post things that you know are lies? Outside of of iOS devices, there are hundreds of millions of phones with web browsers that can't consume Flash content. But you know that.

 

[JRoDDz]

You may want flash, but Steve Jobs doesn't want flash for the simple reason that he can't control what flash apps run and therefore can't charge people a 30% premium. And please don't say that it's slow or takes up too much memory, that can be fixed. What can't be fixed is Apple cannot dip into the honeypot if you run it.

 

[BaldiMac]

You may want flash, but Steve Jobs doesn't want flash for the simple reason that he can't control what flash apps run and therefore can't charge people a 30% premium. And please don't say that it's slow or takes up too much memory, that can be fixed. What can't be fixed is Apple cannot dip into the honeypot if you run it.

Then why does Apple allow other web apps? "And please don't say that it's slow or takes up too much memory, that can be fixed."