Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash

[milani]

You may want flash, but Steve Jobs doesn't want flash for the simple reason that he can't control what flash apps run and therefore can't charge people a 30% premium. And please don't say that it's slow or takes up too much memory, that can be fixed. What can't be fixed is Apple cannot dip into the honeypot if you run it.

Absolutely nonsense argument that is only made from people with no development experience. Flash isn't inherently monetizable. It's a development platform with exactly the same capabilities (for mobile) as web standards - with the exact same ability to be monetized. If Apple really had malicious intention they would not allow HTML5 web apps on the iPhone. Sorry, but it's just such an idiotic argument.

 

[flexengineer]

You may want flash, but Steve Jobs doesn't want flash for the simple reason that he can't control what flash apps run and therefore can't charge people a 30% premium. And please don't say that it's slow or takes up too much memory, that can be fixed. What can't be fixed is Apple cannot dip into the honeypot if you run it.

It is becoming obvious for everyone, from developers to consumers. The buzz about iDevices as a gold mine for developer is over, more and more professionals know Apple is screwing everyone trying to make money on its devices.

Then why does Apple allow other web apps? "And please don't say that it's slow or takes up too much memory, that can be fixed."

What other apps? None of the technologies that work on iDevices browser truly allow to monetize content without dealing with the platform and when they do they cost twice as much money.

Absolutely nonsense argument that is only made from people with no development experience. Flash isn't inherently monetizable.

That is the best quote ever, I am on of top Flex engineers in the country, who are you? Tell us again, what are you technical credentials? Because I asked you many times and you never answered or answered that you do not need to be a technician to participate in the conversation, how dare you to use the sentence "only made from people with no development experience". You have shown nothing but ignorance after ignorance when it gets to technology aspect, just stick to what you know. Flash and Silverlight monetize content better and faster than any other technologies, yet alone HTML LMAO!

Outside of of iOS devices, there are hundreds of millions of phones with web browsers that can't consume Flash content. But you know that.

Those phones probably can't understand HTML5 neither. Flash is on virtually every single phone and tablet coming into the market since.... well, since the day 10.1 came out 6 months ago, before that there was no such thing as Flash on mobile, now watch at what speeds it is going to spread and how fast it is going to dominate the market on all devices and platforms, including Apple's with the Adobe's packager.

You can fool Apple's friends on MacRumors, you can't stop what's happening no matters how much you hate it. Consumers get caught up in the war and are the real victims with a broken browser on the most expensive phone and one of the most expensive tablets on the market.

 

[AbSoluTc]

It is becoming obvious for everyone, from developers to consumers. The buzz about iDevices as a gold mine for developer is over, everyone knows Apple is screwing everyone trying to make money on its devices.



What other apps? None of the technologies that work on iDevices browser truly allow to monetize content without dealing with the platform and when they do they cost twice as much money.



That is the best quote ever, I am on of top Flex engineers in the country, who are you? Tell us again, what are you technical credentials? Because I asked you many times and you never answered or answered that you do not need to be a technician to participate in the conversation, how dare you to use the sentence "only made from people with no development experience". You have shown nothing but ignorance after ignorance when it gets to technology aspect, just stick to what you know. Flash and Silverlight monetize content better and faster than any other technologies, yet alone HTML LMAO!



Those phones probably can't understand HTML% neither. Flash is on every single device coming into the market since.... well, since the day 10.1 came out 6 months ago, before that there was not such thing as Flash on mobile, now watch at what speeds it is going to spread and how fast it is going to dominate the market on all devices and platforms, including Apple's with the Adobe's packager. You can fool Apple's friends ion MacRumors, you can't stop what's happening from happening no matters how much you gate it.

You're terrible at grammar. Hopefully your engineering capabilities are better.

Flash to me, is dead. It had it's days, it rose, it fell and now it's dated. Adobe knew it had issues from the start and didn't want to fix it. Not until all the outcry about it not being on the iPhone and the reason why. Then and only then did they actively start to change. The platform is still not up to par for use on mobile devices. It was never designed to be on such items. Now they are bandaging it to make it work and prove a point.

The only thing they are proving is just how antiquated Flash really is and why it needs to go the way of the dinosaur. It's a resource hog. Period.

 

[flexengineer]

You're terrible at grammar. Hopefully your engineering capabilities are better.

When you French will be as good as my English maybe you will be able to call me on that until then you got me, that's what matters.

Flash to me, is dead.

You might want to have another look around you then.

The platform is still not up to par for use on mobile devices. It was never designed to be on such items. Now they are bandaging it to make it work and prove a point.

That is not true, 10.1 is the first time that Flash Player is meant to run on mobiles and all other platforms for that matter, this version was built with mobile in mind. Prior to that Adobe was down a wrong path with another technology called Flash Lite, which is why they ended up late on mobile but trust me this time it's happening.

It works well on 20,000,000 mobile devices with a 4.5 rating out of 5 on Android store. You are trying to cultivate the myth by sticking in the past, I guess Flash move too fast for some people. Meanwhile 10.1 is now being deployed on 50 different tablet model, virtually every new smart phone from 9 of world's top 10 manufacturers, the entire new line of Samsung TV etc... All that during its first 6 months of life.

What are you talking about dead? The new release 10.2 is the most significant performance improvement in the history of Flash, Adobe has no other goal with this but to shut the big mouth once and for all and they will! It outperforms HTML5 in several video use cases and let's not talk about animation. Oh, full native 3D engine is coming next with Flash 11, the best web browser games you have even seen in your life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs

So, keep talking...

 

[AbSoluTc]

When you French will be as good as my English maybe you will be able to call me on that until then you got me, that's what matters.



You might want to have another look around you then.



That is not true, 10.1 is the first time that Flash Player is meant to run on mobiles and all other platforms for that matter, this version weas built with mobile in mind. Prior to that Adobe was down a wrong path woth another technology called Flash Lite, which is why they ended up late on mobile but trust me this time it's happening.

It works well on 20,000,000 with a 4.5 out of 5 on Android. You are trying to cultivate the myth by sticking in the past, I guess Flash move too fast with some people. Meanwhile 10.1 is now being deployed on 50 different tablet model, 20,000,000 smart phone units counting for almost every single new model from 9 of world's top 10 manufacturers, the entire new line of Samsung TV and so on and so forth.

What are you talking about dead? 10.2 just released is the most significant performance improvment in the history of Flash, Adobe has no other goal with this but to shut the big mouth once and for all and they will! It outperforms HTML5 in several video use cases and let's not talk about animation. Oh, full native 3D engine is coming next with Flash 11, the best web browser games you have even seen in your life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szaXvTsoeVs

So, keep talking...

You already made my point.

Up until Flash 10.1 - it was trash for mobile devices. Even after 10.1 it was quirky at best. It took a MASSIVE outcry from people and a blatant write off from Apple before Adobe did ANYTHING to change it. Now, Adobe is kicking ass and taking names. Too little, too late. Nobody really cares about flash content anymore. The only people that do are those that like to whine about everything and those that need something to whine about. That's it.

I've had an iPhone since 3G. I have never been unable to do anything because of not having flash on the device. Nothing. I know how flash runs on the desktop, I DON'T want it running on my mobile device. EVER. It's a resource hog.

Make a big deal when flash can run on a mobile device and ONLY use 10% or less of system resources.

 

[milani]

That is the best quote ever, I am on of top Flex engineers in the country, who are you? Tell us again, what are you technical credentials? Because I asked you many times and you never answered or answered that you do not need to be a technician to participate in the conversation, how dare you to use the sentence "only made from people with no development experience". You have shown nothing but ignorance after ignorance when it gets to technology aspect, just stick to what you know. Flash and Silverlight monetize content better and faster than any other technologies, yet alone HTML LMAO!

What does monetization mean to you? I don't think you understand what the term means. Generally, people use the term to describe advertising. I am equally capable of embedding an advertisement in an HTML5 web app as I am in a Flash-based app. If you can provide a specific example of a means of monetizing Flash that cannot also be done on an HTML5 web app I'll concede the point.

I've answered you several times, you must have forgotten. I don't typically brag about my experience because I find that when someone brags on the internet they invariably look like a douchebag.

 

[err404]

...Not until all the outcry about it not being on the iPhone and the reason why. Then and only then did they actively start to change. The platform is still not up to par for use on mobile devices. It was never designed to be on such items. Now they are bandaging it to make it work and prove a point...

^this
I don't want Flash because only Adobe can make a player. The specs released by the OpenScreen project are a joke and the project is not on target to ever allow for the creation of viable a third party player.

In the Flash ruled world that Flex is proposing, Adobe becomes a linchpin in the viability of any device.

I simply have no trust in Adobe to aggressively support all mobile devices as the number of mobile platforms continue to rise. I fully expect that Adobe will follow the same path that they took in the desktop space. That is; to allow the quality of the Flash Player to suffer on all but the dominant mobile platform.
In affect Adobe would get to dictate which OS your next phone uses.

Flash does not bring enough to the table to justify giving Adobe this level of overall market control.

The web capability of devices is an important common ground that must be maintained. I don't want any company to unilaterally control this functionality.
Honestly I'm terrified of the Flash plug-in gaining more control then it already has.

 

[milani]

The web capability of devices is an important common ground that must be maintained. I don't want any company to unilaterally control this functionality.

Flex has already said that he supports Adobe's monolithic control of video on the web because he believes that Adobe is an egalitarian organization. There is really no sense in proposing any philosophical points of consideration about proprietary plugins and the open web, Flex will simply ignore your point.

 

[AbSoluTc]

^this
I don't want Flash because only Adobe can make a player. The specs released by the OpenScreen project are a joke and the project is not on target to ever allow for the creation of viable a third party player.

In the Flash ruled world that Flex is proposing, Adobe becomes a linchpin in the viability of any device.

I simply have no trust in Adobe to aggressively support all mobile devices as the number of mobile platforms continue to rise. I fully expect that Adobe will follow the same path that they took in the desktop space. That is; to allow the quality of the Flash Player to suffer on all but the dominant mobile platform.
In affect Adobe would get to dictate which OS your next phone uses.

Flash does not bring enough to the table to justify giving Adobe this level of overall market control.

The web capability of devices is an important common ground that must be maintained. I don't want any company to unilaterally control this functionality.
Honestly I'm terrified of the Flash plug-in gaining more control then it already has.

Flex has already said that he supports Adobe's monolithic control of video on the web because he believes that Adobe is an egalitarian organization. There is really no sense in proposing any philosophical points of consideration about proprietary plugins and the open web, Flex will simply ignore your point.

Wow, people with BRAINS!

Wonder where they went to school?

Good points both of you. Adobe has TOO much control over flash not to mention they think they are gods gift to the web.

 

[flexengineer]

Adobe has TOO much control over flash not to mention they think they are gods gift to the web.

There is a reason why Adobe has such dominance it is because its technologies kick ass and they are always ahead of everything else, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlNKJbDrYdU

Flash will always have years advance on HTML5.

What does monetization mean to you?

You can't monetize premium content (movies, music, applications) unless you can protect them, Flash allows full protection, HTML5 does not, that is why you do not see any premium video site on Apple's browser. There is another reason: it forces businesses to build native apps and give 30% to Apple.

 

[BaldiMac]

What other apps? None of the technologies that work on iDevices browser truly allow to monetize content without dealing with the platform and when they do they cost twice as much money.

Come on. You're a developer. Obviously, you know what a non-Flash web application is. How about Gmail? The web is obviously monetized outside of Flash.

Those phones probably can't understand HTML5 neither.

Way to shift those goalposts. You said "Flash content can be consumed on any device as well." That is not true. And you know it's not true. No one made the same claim about HTML5.

Flash is on virtually every single phone and tablet coming into the market since.... well, since the day 10.1 came out 6 months ago, before that there was no such thing as Flash on mobile, now watch at what speeds it is going to spread and how fast it is going to dominate the market on all devices and platforms, including Apple's with the Adobe's packager.

And you know that's not true either. Unless by "virtually every single phone and tablet", you simply mean "a lot of Android phones and the Galaxy Tab." Which is about 5% of what you actually said.

I would like to see your response to err404's most recent post.

 

[flexengineer]

Come on. You're a developer. Obviously, you know what a non-Flash web application is. How about Gmail? The web is obviously monetized outside of Flash.

Gmail does not monetize content it displays advertising and by doing so it indirectly monetizes a service. I am talking about monetizing content, video and music, you can't protect those with HTML5, you can with Flash. Studios, labels and TV networks do not allow any their valuable content to be streamed with HTML5, they extensively use Flash instead. Same thing for TV and music.

And you know that's not true either. Unless by "virtually every single phone and tablet", you simply mean "a lot of Android phones and the Galaxy Tab." Which is about 5% of what you actually said.

Can you give me the name of smart phones being released now with not support for Flash? Also, could you document that phones with no Flash support account for 95% of new phone sales? Unless you meant something else in which case please define the 5% you mentioned.

I would like to see your response to err404's most recent post.

Philosophical and ideological points of view are of no interest to me. I'm a perfectionist and I am after the best way to do the best of things. No standard ever allowed to push the envelop, no standard ever delivered the "best" user experience for most people (with the exception of CSS for layout and positioning), that is even more true now that generations X and Y are on the way to outnumber the baby boomers.

 

[BaldiMac]

Gmail does not monetize content it displays advertising and by doing so it indirectly monetizes a service.

You do realize that you contradicted yourself there. Why does it matter if it is indirectly? And as a developer, can you not imagine a way to charge directly for access to a web app without using Flash?

I am talking about monetizing content, video and music, you can't protect those with HTML5, you can with Flash, studios do not allow any their premium content to be streamed with HTML5, they extensively use Flash instead. Same thing for TV and music.

The problem is that I was not talking about "monetizing content, video and music." Never even mentioned video and music. You were responding to my claim that Apple allows web apps by denying that web apps exist. You were wrong.

Can you give me the name of smart phones being released now and do not support Flash?

Sure. I'll give you a few. Blackberry Curve. Blackberry Bold. LG Fathom. HTC Ozone. Any Windows Phone 7 phone. Any iOS phone. I just picked the first few that I saw on the Verizon site. There is hundreds more. Mostly, any non-Android phone.

Also, could you document that phones with no Flash support account for 95% of new phone sales? Unless you meant something else in that case define the 5%.

Well, since Android sales are about 6% of the mobile phone market, and not all Android phones have Flash, (throw in the small tablet market), I just estimated the 5%. I was probably a little high.

Philosophical and ideological points of view are of no interest to me.

Philosophical and ideological? I'd find it hard to call his argument that. Whatever.

I'm a perfectionist and I am after the best way to do the best of things.

I'll assume that statement is limited to your development work.

No standard ever allowed to push the envelop, no standard ever delivered the "best" user experience for most people (with the exception of CSS for layout and positioning), that is even more true now that generations X and Y are on the way to outnumber the baby boomers.

Seriously, you can't think of a single standard other than CSS the pushed the envelop or delivered the best user experience for most people? How about H.264?

 

[flexengineer]

You were responding to my claim that Apple allows web apps by denying that web apps exist. You were wrong.

Spending your day calling me wrong does not make me so, I was responding to the example you took yourself which was Gmail and is not "content", it's a SaS (software as a service).

Sure. I'll give you a few. Blackberry Curve. Blackberry Bold. LG Fathom. HTC Ozone. Any Windows Phone 7 phone. Any iOS phone.

Could you narrow down the list to devices released for the first time after July 2010?

Well, since Android sales are about 6% of the mobile phone market

Android accounted for 22.7% of smart phones sold to end user in 2010 (Gartner, February 2011)

 

[BaldiMac]

Spending your day calling me wrong does not make me so, I was responding to the example you took yourself which was Gmail and is not "content", it's a SaS (software as a service).

You were the one that said "content." I did not. I said "web app."

Could you narrow down the list to devices released for the first time after July 2010?

No. But I'm sure you can.

Android accounted for 22.7% of smart phones sold to end user in 2010 (Gartner, February 2011)

And the smartphone market is not the same as the mobile phone market.

Adobe itself only expects to be on 132 million smartphones by the end of 2011. That's less than 25% of the smartphone market for 2011, let alone the install base. We already went over these numbers. 25% of the smartphone market is not "virtually every single phone."

 

[Rajani Isa]

Android accounted for 22.7% of smart phones sold to end user in 2010 (Gartner, February 2011)

Ah, but that's a "lime" compared to the mention of "fruit" - as called out below

And the smartphone market is not the same as the mobile phone market.

A smart phone is a mobile phone; a mobile phone is not necessarily a smart phone.

So, flex, try to avoid the numbers, they're not being too nice to you when you try to use them lately.

 

[milani]

Can you give me the name of smart phones being released now with not support for Flash?

Windows Phone 7.

 

[chr]

Why would anyone prefer a Flash experience over a native app? Since baseball season is nearly upon us, I'll use MLB.tv as an example: the experience on a web browser is not nearly as pleasant as on an iPhone or iPad. Why? Because the content is delivered through Flash in the browser--the native application is created specifically for the content.

You can use Zinio as another example: their content is powered by Adobe Flash and Adobe Air on the PC--it runs terribly. The iPad version, however, is quite well done.

I've no doubt that Flash will be around for a long time in browser form, but why would anyone want to introduce it on iOS? All that it would accomplish is to provide an option for developers to easily create a subpar user experience. And knowing how many developers and content providers take short cuts, I'd prefer them to not have that option.

 

[mKTank]

You already made my point.

Up until Flash 10.1 - it was trash for mobile devices. Even after 10.1 it was quirky at best. It took a MASSIVE outcry from people and a blatant write off from Apple before Adobe did ANYTHING to change it. Now, Adobe is kicking ass and taking names. Too little, too late. Nobody really cares about flash content anymore. The only people that do are those that like to whine about everything and those that need something to whine about. That's it.

I've had an iPhone since 3G. I have never been unable to do anything because of not having flash on the device. Nothing. I know how flash runs on the desktop, I DON'T want it running on my mobile device. EVER. It's a resource hog.

Make a big deal when flash can run on a mobile device and ONLY use 10% or less of system resources.

Still living in lala land? The vast majority of the people do care about Flash content. Like I said, 6% of the market cannot dictate the future of a major web standard. Just because you and your friends are all in denial about Flash doesn't mean that 'nobody really cares about flash content anymore.' Maybe the people who still want flash are the people who still want to watch over 70% of the web's video content? The others are the people who are fine with dead technology like HTML5 that will still take several years to catch up.


Also, don't whine about Flex's English. Yours is hardly any better.

 

[mKTank]

Windows Phone 7.

They're releasing it for WP7 soon. Microsoft is not against Flash because their CEO has a brain sometimes.

 

[BaldiMac]

They're releasing it for WP7 soon. Microsoft is not against Flash because their CEO has a brain sometimes.

Sure. But it was in response to a claim that Flash has been on virtually every single mobile phone released since July 2010. Which is obviously untrue.

 

[mKTank]

Sure. But it was in response to a claim that Flash has been on virtually every single mobile phone released since July 2010. Which is obviously untrue.

I suppose. You could put Flash on any Android phone if you wanted to, though. If somebody really wants it, they could root their phones, etc. But with the iPhone, you're stuck with "no" for an answer. Frash used to kind of work, but not for videos.

 

[dejo]

The vast majority of the people do care about Flash content.

You have a source for this claim?

 

[milani]

They're releasing it for WP7 soon. Microsoft is not against Flash because their CEO has a brain sometimes.

He asked the question. Don't paint Flash adoption in an untrue manner, it only undermines your collective pro-Flash argument. Saying that Flash will be on x number of devices does not mean that Flash is currently on x number of devices.

The lastest news out of Redmond is that Microsoft is actually cutting back on Silverlight development for their mobile platform in favor of HTML5. So yah, I guess you're right. Sometimes Ballmer does have a brain.

Like I said, 6% of the market cannot dictate the future of a major web standard.

Flash isn't a web standard. And that's the entire point.

 

[mKTank]

He asked the question. Don't paint Flash adoption in an untrue manner, it only undermines your collective pro-Flash argument. Saying that Flash will be on x number of devices does not mean that Flash is currently on x number of devices.

The lastest news out of Redmond is that Microsoft is actually cutting back on Silverlight development for their mobile platform in favor of HTML5. So yah, I guess you're right. Sometimes Ballmer does have a brain.




Flash isn't a web standard. And that's the entire point.

Not recognized as one but it is.