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Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash
- Thread starter TapHappy
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1) frash is really broken in its current iteration and 2) you obviously weren't paying much attention to your battery, not a heavy Safari user, or you're one of the geniuses with WeatherIcon set to refresh every minute so your phone lasts 4 hours between charges anyway.
Why should I need more than a browser to browse the internet? The idea of flash was broken from the beginning. Video and such should have been included in HTML long ago. Flash has done it's job I guess...but let's retire it already. I've put up with having to install an add-on for long enough!
This may sound like an obnoxious response, but if it's that big of a deal, why would you spend $1000 AUD for a phone that you knew wouldn't work the way you wanted it to? There are tons of options out there that can give you flash.
How would Apple realize something when people like you are spending $1000 on the phone? The best way to complain is not to give them your money. But giving them your money and then complaining doesn't make much sense.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and nobody cares that you bought your phone off-contract for a lot of money, but I'll go ahead and explain to you that the reason others in this thread have said that they hope Flash is kept off of iOS is because it forces websites to use html5--if the option was available (as it is on OSX and Windows), websites would continue to use Flash--which, for people who don't want to spend all of their time blocking Flash ads and visiting NewGrounds.com provides a less pleasant user experience.
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Being that I currently work around iOS and Droid devices (tablets and phones), here is my view on Flash.....
On the Android tablets, I'm noticing that they play flash decently, but the Flash sites themselves are rather sluggish. But once a Flash video starts (say, from Fox.com), it looks relatively good.
BUT, and it's a big but..........
Battery life was being DECIMATED in the short time I was playing the Flash video. We watched a 30 minute episode of Family Guy and it took the tablet from 98% battery to under 50%. It absolutely killed the battery life, so if you want Flash, you will most likely need to be plugged in. If you need to be plugged in and stationary, then why the hell don't you just watch it on your computer? That's my logic.
As for Flash in general, Adobe STILL can't get Flash to play correctly on Mac, even with the new beta which still sucks my processor down. I know that part of the blame can be put on Apple, but the majority is all Adobe......but recently, I've been VERY disappointed with Adobe products in general. I've been using Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. since the 90's, and I've seen a steady decline in stability/quality and an increase in sloppiness over the past couple of years.
What I would like to see Apple do is to release an HTML5 Animation program that allows users to create videos, animations, web, etc. but in HTML5 format. THAT would completely kill off Flash as we know it.
On the Android tablets, I'm noticing that they play flash decently, but the Flash sites themselves are rather sluggish. But once a Flash video starts (say, from Fox.com), it looks relatively good.
BUT, and it's a big but..........
Battery life was being DECIMATED in the short time I was playing the Flash video. We watched a 30 minute episode of Family Guy and it took the tablet from 98% battery to under 50%. It absolutely killed the battery life, so if you want Flash, you will most likely need to be plugged in. If you need to be plugged in and stationary, then why the hell don't you just watch it on your computer? That's my logic.
As for Flash in general, Adobe STILL can't get Flash to play correctly on Mac, even with the new beta which still sucks my processor down. I know that part of the blame can be put on Apple, but the majority is all Adobe......but recently, I've been VERY disappointed with Adobe products in general. I've been using Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. since the 90's, and I've seen a steady decline in stability/quality and an increase in sloppiness over the past couple of years.
What I would like to see Apple do is to release an HTML5 Animation program that allows users to create videos, animations, web, etc. but in HTML5 format. THAT would completely kill off Flash as we know it.
It's not that I want to see flash, but the choice to have it or not - let me decide for myself. Nowhere did I suggest I wasn't happy with the phone - but yes, battery life still isn't amazing - but you take that for granted.
I honestly wish I hadn't replied to this discussion, or joined this place if I knew everyone was this aggressive...
Ok haters, here some info that should make you shut your mouth.
1/ I cover the Apple vs Adobe, HTML5 vs Flash war extensively on my blog based on 11 years software engineering experience, 7 years developing enterprise class application with Adobe Flex and AIR for clients ranging from game changing start-ups to Fortune 100.
2/ You iPhone users can stay behind and drink your guru's cool aid but Adobe has moved on and this is what they came up with, notice that this demo also show the new player on MacBook AIR with 10 fold performance improvement, unless you are blind it should do it:
MAX Sneaks : Flash Player Video Performance Improvements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geK7geL3I40
3/ Now, you can repeat all day long until the end of time that Flash is either dead or dying the truth of the matter is that it is doing better that ever and this is why:
Top CEOs from Google, Intel, Motorola, HTC, RIM, Palm, NVIDIA, ARM, Broadcom, DoCoMo, QUALCOMM and STMIcroelectronics go on the record to advocate for Adobe Flash and AIR as the future of mobility, explaining how they are helping Adobe to optimize Flash and bring it to their devices and platforms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CwI227m-hs
4/ And this is why Apple will never get the support of the application developers community:
Adobe Flash - One Web, Any Screen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u8ynaCPIoY
5/ Because at the end of day Flash reaches 99% of computers, 6.5 billion people, 5 billion screens with a community of 3,000,000 developers as of today and by 2012 Flash Player will be baked in 350,000,000 mobile deceives. How many iOS developers? That's right, 100,000.
6/ Let's finish with a note of humor:
Flash Love Letter - The Remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo7nTxFxCaE
Thank you and have a nice day.
1/ I cover the Apple vs Adobe, HTML5 vs Flash war extensively on my blog based on 11 years software engineering experience, 7 years developing enterprise class application with Adobe Flex and AIR for clients ranging from game changing start-ups to Fortune 100.
2/ You iPhone users can stay behind and drink your guru's cool aid but Adobe has moved on and this is what they came up with, notice that this demo also show the new player on MacBook AIR with 10 fold performance improvement, unless you are blind it should do it:
MAX Sneaks : Flash Player Video Performance Improvements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geK7geL3I40
3/ Now, you can repeat all day long until the end of time that Flash is either dead or dying the truth of the matter is that it is doing better that ever and this is why:
Top CEOs from Google, Intel, Motorola, HTC, RIM, Palm, NVIDIA, ARM, Broadcom, DoCoMo, QUALCOMM and STMIcroelectronics go on the record to advocate for Adobe Flash and AIR as the future of mobility, explaining how they are helping Adobe to optimize Flash and bring it to their devices and platforms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CwI227m-hs
4/ And this is why Apple will never get the support of the application developers community:
Adobe Flash - One Web, Any Screen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u8ynaCPIoY
5/ Because at the end of day Flash reaches 99% of computers, 6.5 billion people, 5 billion screens with a community of 3,000,000 developers as of today and by 2012 Flash Player will be baked in 350,000,000 mobile deceives. How many iOS developers? That's right, 100,000.
6/ Let's finish with a note of humor:
Flash Love Letter - The Remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo7nTxFxCaE
Thank you and have a nice day.
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I guess the Steve Jobs dictating what you could and couldn't do with the phone was what led me to believe you weren't happy with it. Especially saying he was dictating how you could use something you paid $1000 for. Had you bought it and then Steve removed flash, then your complaint may have a bit more merit.
I certainly didn't mean to be aggressive, so if I was I apologize. I hope it doesn't deter you from posting in the future, because one of the great things about this place are the discussions with people we don't always agree with. It's always nice to see someone else's point of view, and be able to debate a bit.
It took Adobe literally years to come up with this. How long has Flash been a complete CPU hog on OS X? That's why they get so much crap from Mac users.
Whatever articles and statistics you throw out there doesn't change the fact that some of us have had bad experiences with flash.
My truth is that flash negatively effected my browsing experience. It routinely crashed Safari and caused endless beach balling. Since I installed click 2 flash, Safari has acted like a different browser. It hasn't crashed, and the pages that have flash intensive ads load a lot quicker (and sans beach ball). I'm no engineer, but for me the removal of Flash fixed my problems.
I don't care if Adobe and Apple hate each other. I just want it to work. And right now it doesn't. It may work on 5 billion windows based screens, but it didn't work on mine. That isn't "kool aid" talking, nor am I blind. That is my experience. And any number of articles or facts or condescending rhetoric isn't going to change my mind.
And really, it weakens your argument tremendously when you have a blog entitled applesucks. You are no more objective then us guru loving Kool Aid drinkers.
He must not be using his iPhone correctly because it clearly delivers much better battery life (on average) than your average Android phone, of which I've owned like almost every model. Moyank24 said it best:
Jobs made it pretty clear that Flash was probably never going to be on the iP4, yet some of these buyers just couldn't help themselves --buy first, whine later.
Like I wrote before, I never used Flash on my Galaxy S phones, and I always turn it off on my Milestone Droid.
Flash? Meh...only relevant for fanboys who try to discredit Apple.
To be fair, I think flash is only relevant to anyone who has gone onto a website and seen a blue lego brick rather than what they were looking for.
Exactly the point, you have the option of turning flash on or off, iPhone, Pod and Pad users do not have that option. Even if flash spent most of its time switched off, it would be so useful for the times that it is needed.
I often ask myself what Flash actually adds in quality to websites that makes it essential.
Yesterday I was browsing honeymoon locations on my iPad and all hotels have Flash websites. I checked on my MBP and was left wondering why Flash was necessary to show a few pool and room pictures?
Regardless of flash or HtmL5 or whatever, I think webmasters and designers should think about content and design first and not start the process with "hmmm, what could I use flash here for? Let's make some stuff move on the site!!"
Yesterday I was browsing honeymoon locations on my iPad and all hotels have Flash websites. I checked on my MBP and was left wondering why Flash was necessary to show a few pool and room pictures?
Regardless of flash or HtmL5 or whatever, I think webmasters and designers should think about content and design first and not start the process with "hmmm, what could I use flash here for? Let's make some stuff move on the site!!"
Seems to me that many of the arguments people have posted in MR against Flash on iOS are a rather weak:
I do agree with many who say that Flash should be an option that can be turned on and off by the user. Moreover, I'd add to that the ability to delete Flash 'cookies' (LSO's) and the end of each session, which to my mind constitute the most egregious violation of web privacy. Indeed, I wonder how long Flash will live now that there are browser plug-ins and other tools to nuke Flash cookies.
EDIT: @peterdevries (who posted above): Flash is used because companies can use Flash cookies to keep track of you even if you have turned off Javascript and web cookies. See this section in Wikipedia: click here
- The idea that not having Flash will protect iOS users from ads is näive. HTML5 will be used instead, or iAds.
- There are multiple reasons why Flash might be unstable that do not entail that Flash is fatally flawed. They're called web site developers. The fact that Flash crashes for some users on some web sites, bot not others (like me), suggests that the fault rests neither with Adobe nor Apple. I also wonder how many of these crashes are deliberate attempts at hacking.
- Many cite Jobs' claim that Flash is reported to Apple as having crashed frequently. My point above aside, how many of these crashes are with the Flash scripting language versus playing of Flash multimedia files? If the Flash media files are not to blame, why can't we have a Flash media player?
- Apple wants to support web standards. OK - so is Quicktime going to be phased out or made an open standard? By the way, for those of you who argue Quicktime is free, and therefore a de facto open standard, in the UK this is only true for individual home users. Organizations, such as Universities, must pay for QT player.
- In the end, Apple should listen to their customers, and there are many of us that want the option of Flash. It's not rocket science - allow Adobe to bring out a browser app that supports Flash and allow users to install it or not. Then we'd see how popular Flash is on the iPhone, and how stable it is, and the degree to which it is a power- and bandwidth-hog.
- In the last regard, of course Flash will chew up power and bandwidth, but then again so do many apps. I wouldn't mind having Flash available so that at home, where I have both Wifi and AC power, I could access Flash web sites as I see fit.
- Skyfire is an awkward, bandwidth-chewing workaround for a problem created by Apple's stubbornness. And yet they're having a hard time keeping up with demand. Sounds to me like Flash would be favorably received by many iOS users.
I do agree with many who say that Flash should be an option that can be turned on and off by the user. Moreover, I'd add to that the ability to delete Flash 'cookies' (LSO's) and the end of each session, which to my mind constitute the most egregious violation of web privacy. Indeed, I wonder how long Flash will live now that there are browser plug-ins and other tools to nuke Flash cookies.
EDIT: @peterdevries (who posted above): Flash is used because companies can use Flash cookies to keep track of you even if you have turned off Javascript and web cookies. See this section in Wikipedia: click here
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Can I call BS?
Talking about big pipes: We have a 1 Gb/s, three 155 MBit/s and several E1s here. I visit websites with Flash content on a daily basis and NOTHING ever stutters or crashes. But then again, at work I use a Dell XPS M1530 notebook with 64-Bit Windows 7 and Firefox 4 Beta 8.
Flash also never caused any of my Linux systems to crash or slow down.
OS X is the only platform that seems to have problems with Flash. But after the latest update to 10.6.5, almost everything crashes frequently, including Dashboard, Aperture, Vienna and a bunch of other applications that I have on my Mac at home.
My guess is that Apple has the lousiest QA in the industry and they simply don't test their stuff sufficiently before they release it. Their secrecy is biting their own ass: If they were more open and co-operative with their "partners", their products would have a better quality.
Anyway. We all know that Apple's dislike for Flash has no technical reasons at all. You guys just have to defend your decision to have paid so much for a crippled device that is incapable of providing you the "full Internet experience" that Apple has been advertising. A FULL Internet experience requires a browser that supports Flash, ShockWave (try playing a game on www.dawnofthedeadmovie.net, for example) and Java. It also requires a browser that can play more than just Apple's video formats.
I don't have a 'side' in the Apple vs Adobe Flash war. I really don't care which ego or corporate coffers get fed. I just want the page I go to on the web to work, whether it's on my iPhone or my Mac.
I don't like coming to a website and seeing the little blue boxes instead of the content I desire...
BUT
I also don't like the fact that Flash is the single greatest cause of crashes I have on my Mac. And frankly, I don't care whether it's Flash itself or something related to the way Flash plays on my Mac. That's a Tech nerd argument that the average user doesn't care about.
So if you give me Flash that actually works on my IOS device (and Mac) and doesn't kill battery life, that would be fine, even as an option.
If, as some here have said, HTML5 becomes standard across the web, and content will play on IOS devices and Macs, that will be fine as well.
But don't give me a buggy POS that is crash prone, and don't fence me off from web content.
I don't like coming to a website and seeing the little blue boxes instead of the content I desire...
BUT
I also don't like the fact that Flash is the single greatest cause of crashes I have on my Mac. And frankly, I don't care whether it's Flash itself or something related to the way Flash plays on my Mac. That's a Tech nerd argument that the average user doesn't care about.
So if you give me Flash that actually works on my IOS device (and Mac) and doesn't kill battery life, that would be fine, even as an option.
If, as some here have said, HTML5 becomes standard across the web, and content will play on IOS devices and Macs, that will be fine as well.
But don't give me a buggy POS that is crash prone, and don't fence me off from web content.
Sounds like you're describing the iPhone 4 on release.
My take on Flash on the iPhone is meh. That 3.5" screen is too damn small to do any serious web browsing either way. No big loss.
Congrats for turning a Mobile Flash debate into a Windows vs Mac argument...and a very subjective and consequently invalid one at that.
Remember kids, just becuase it works for YOU doesn't mean any other negative experience is 'BS'
They key here is will be used. Most people making this argument are arguing about now, not the future. Of course, HTML5 will replace Flash for similar types of ads. But we will have more control with HTML5.
Why does it matter whose fault it is?
H.264, an open standard, has been the default codec for Quicktime for years.
Why should they listen to a small percentage of their customers. Sales have shown that most of their customers don't care about Flash.
Part of the strategy is that not having Flash as an option takes away a crutch for web developers. It forces them away from Flash to support iOS visitors.
Again, a small percentage of iOS users have actually downloaded Syfire. It's not evidence of an overwhelming demand.
Which is my primary objection to Flash for many, many years. Forget the crashing and performance. The willful violation of user privacy preferences and the prioritizing of developer concerns over end user concerns is what keeps me blocking Flash.
My point is not to throw out the baby with the bath water. In this case, some web developers are creating code that causes Flash to crash. Given this fact, it is not reasonable to conclude that Flash is flawed per se - any programming language can allow poor programmers to cause crashes. If Apple banned all of the programming languages for which this was true, then there would be none left.
And by the way, in a modern OS why should crashes be so bad? Also on a modern system with multiprocessors and multitasking, I particularly don't understand why a hung application should ever prevent me from interacting with the GUI, as sometimes happens in Mac OSX. But I suppose that's another thread....