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What he, myself, and many others have noticed, and are saying, is that while the FlashPlayer is the same, Flash playback is incontrovertibly worse in Safari than in Firefox. So *something* is different about Safari.

Well obviously the browser has lot to do with it. Otherwise the experience should be exactly the same, but it isn´t.

Incontrovertibly worse? Every benchmark I''ve seen show relatively equal performance across browsers. Here's an example on Windows. I couldn't find one on OS X right away. Chrome is an outlier because it bundles it's own flash player.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opera-10.60-internet-explorer-9-safari-5,2680-8.html

"Why should Apple need to "handle" Flash?" Well isn´t that quite obvious too? Haven´t you seen the massive backlash, since Apple started this "war against Flash". I´m sure you haven´t missed the hundreds of threads in multiple sites with hundreds of pages bashing Apple. The rest of the world is laughing at Apple. Only the minority brainwashed Apple fanboys are making excuses.

You know, I have nothing against moving everything to HTML5, but in the meanwhile they could at least give us the option for Flash.

Massive backlash? Forums and blogs aren't your best source of public opinion. The minority is the ones making noise about the lack of Flash on iOS.

Maybe Apple just can´t write good enough code around it like others can...

Again, you misunderstand the relationship between the platform provider and the developer.
 
Interesting assertion.
What will be so different about HTML5 advertising, after it replaces Flash advertising, that will allow us to have more control over it?

Probably the opposite of that assertion is true - it's easy to just turn off Flash to avoid adverts now, but it's unlikely there will be an option to turn off HTML5/CSS/Javascript adverts. How would the browser differentiate between adverts and genuine site content?

Most of the criticisms of Flash now will likely be true of HTML5 content in a few years as it's more widely and heavily used.
 
Probably the opposite of that assertion is true - it's easy to just turn off Flash to avoid adverts now, but it's unlikely there will be an option to turn off HTML5/CSS/Javascript adverts.

That's not true at all. We already have fine grained control of javascript and content tags.

How would the browser differentiate between adverts and genuine site content?

The same way we do now with image ads or flash ads. By content type and source.

Most of the criticisms of Flash now will likely be true of HTML5 content in a few years as it's more widely and heavily used.

Except we aren't relying on one company to improve the player as we are now.
 
Incontrovertibly worse? Every benchmark I''ve seen show relatively equal performance across browsers. Here's an example on Windows. I couldn't find one on OS X right away. Chrome is an outlier because it bundles it's own flash player.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/opera-10.60-internet-explorer-9-safari-5,2680-8.html



Massive backlash? Forums and blogs aren't your best source of public opinion. The minority is the ones making noise about the lack of Flash on iOS.



Again, you misunderstand the relationship between the platform provider and the developer.

Like I said, I was speaking about my own experience, but this has been confirmed by many others too. So your benchmarks are clearly wrong or not accurate. And a Windows benchmark? I thought we were talking about browsers in OS X. :rolleyes: Gimme a break!

I guess you´ve missed the backlash then. Where have you been living? Under a rock?

I understand the relationship perfectly, but obviously the experience is very very different. Just like they say there´s nothing different between Mac and PC, but clearly people have different experiences.
 
Well in my experience, Flash crashes in Safari all the time and stutters many times in playback.

This NEVER happens with Firefox, it runs very stable and SMOOTH! No problems whatsoever.

Face it, Apple just can´t handle Flash!

In YOUR experience. In MY experience it was horrible in Firefox, crashing so often that I finally just had to disable Flash all together. I also had problems with it in Chrome and on my windows systems. Just because YOUR experience was positive don't assume that all or most have the experience. I don't assume everyone's experience is as bad as mine, each to their own.

Since then (several years ago now) I have never missed flash. Sure I get those boxes and some videos don't show, but overall; if a company website REQUIRES flash, then they don't get my business.
 
Let's all take a chill pill :)

The fact of the matter is that Stevie-O wont allow Flash on his iPhone, ok?

Yes, that´s most likely true and I´m ok with it.

But iPad should have it, otherwise Steve is a fool! ;)


In YOUR experience. In MY experience it was horrible in Firefox, crashing so often that I finally just had to disable Flash all together. I also had problems with it in Chrome and on my windows systems. Just because YOUR experience was positive don't assume that all or most have the experience. I don't assume everyone's experience is as bad as mine, each to their own.

Since then (several years ago now) I have never missed flash. Sure I get those boxes and some videos don't show, but overall; if a company website REQUIRES flash, then they don't get my business.

HahahahahahaH!!!! Best internet experience EVER!!!

Yes, MY experience. That´s what I´ve been telling already multiple times. Why did you had the need to repeat me?

HAHAHAAHAHAH!!!!
 
In YOUR experience. In MY experience it was horrible in Firefox, crashing so often that I finally just had to disable Flash all together. I also had problems with it in Chrome and on my windows systems. Just because YOUR experience was positive don't assume that all or most have the experience. I don't assume everyone's experience is as bad as mine, each to their own.

Since then (several years ago now) I have never missed flash. Sure I get those boxes and some videos don't show, but overall; if a company website REQUIRES flash, then they don't get my business.

I see. You have never bought Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, Burberry products. Good for you!! Just have enough money to buy iphone.
 
Dont buy an iphone if you want flash. Otherwise, like millions of people like me who enjoy their iphones, dont wish for flash support on iphones. No way!
 
Put me down as one who doesn't want Flash. I removed it from my MBP months ago and I've never had a Mac running so well since: I have no more problems with excessive processor utilization, overheating, and instability. The worst possible scenario would be to have a version of Flash on my iOS devices that can't be removed.
 
Whatever articles and statistics you throw out there doesn't change the fact that some of us have had bad experiences with flash.

My truth is that flash negatively effected my browsing experience. It routinely crashed Safari and caused endless beach balling. Since I installed click 2 flash, Safari has acted like a different browser. It hasn't crashed, and the pages that have flash intensive ads load a lot quicker (and sans beach ball). I'm no engineer, but for me the removal of Flash fixed my problems.

I don't care if Adobe and Apple hate each other. I just want it to work. And right now it doesn't. It may work on 5 billion windows based screens, but it didn't work on mine. That isn't "kool aid" talking, nor am I blind. That is my experience. And any number of articles or facts or condescending rhetoric isn't going to change my mind.

And really, it weakens your argument tremendously when you have a blog entitled applesucks. You are no more objective then us guru loving Kool Aid drinkers.

Right now Apple sucks for everyone but Apple's fans, wake up people!

Apple wants to control the application market, I am not going to repeat myself forever but Apple refused to collaborate with Adobe for years! Adobe stopped paying attention and ignored the Macintosh 10% market share, what are they supposed to do keep fighting with Apple to support its own OS? Apple did not even release hardware acceleration API until few months ago, that is when Adobe came up with this fantastic new player. I am sure the FTC has something to do with it.

There are bigger forces and interests at play than you can imagine, but it does not matter anymore because Flash is going to work beautifully one 350,000,000 smart phones by 2012. What do you think will be Apple's consumers reaction when they are going to see Flash work fine ion everyone's hands but theirs? That's right, good bye Apple dominance, backs to where it belongs, 10% market share and an insignificant community of 100,000 developers (we are 3,000,000 Flash developers). Deja vu? It's called Macintosh. Apple is a maker of fancy devices for rich people, their temporary market dominance on the mobile market was just because they were first to market, easy to dominate when you are the only product on the shelves.

Let's see how Apple and Flash are going to do this year...
 
I see. You have never bought Louis Vuitton, Prada, Gucci, Burberry products. Good for you!! Just have enough money to buy iphone.

Sure have, but I don't buy them via their website, I walk into a store, or another online distributor. :rolleyes:

If I am looking for things online to buy and I cannot get to the content to order the product because of flash, I just move on to another site that offers it, or their competitor. Never once have I not gotten what I wanted because I couldn't find someone selling it without the need of flash.

If I was doing research for Gucci and their website REQUIRES flash, and it was the only source of information; then yeah, I'd cross them off the list. But since this information is available via other distribution methods; and rarely do I order directly from the manufacturer (cheaper to go to one of the other sites) it is the distributor who loses business by requiring flash.

BTW : Gucci website doesn't require flash; just checked.
BTW #2 : Burberry doesn't either, just if you use their store locator and videos; everything else is flashless.
 
Like I said, I was speaking about my own experience, but this has been confirmed by many others too. So your benchmarks are clearly wrong or not accurate. And a Windows benchmark? I thought we were talking about browsers in OS X. :rolleyes: Gimme a break!

I provided an objective analysis, you provided a subjective anecdote. How does that prove the benchmarks "clearly wrong or not accurate?"

I guess you´ve missed the backlash then. Where have you been living? Under a rock?

I've seen a backlash. I just question your claim that it's massive. You seem to think forums and blogs are an accurate reflection of the entire market. They are not. Massive sales and unrivaled customer satisfaction are evidence to the contrary.

It's funny that you think that you have to live under a rock to not know about the flash backlash with iOS. The vast majority of people in this world have no clue about the "controversy". Even if you limit that to people with internet access.
 
It took Adobe literally years to come up with this. How long has Flash been a complete CPU hog on OS X? That's why they get so much crap from Mac users.


Apple refused to collaborate with Adobe for years! Adobe stopped paying attention and ignored the Macintosh 10% market share, can't blame them, what are they supposed to do keep fighting with Apple to support its own OS and spend money on a 10% market share against Apple's will? Apple did not even release hardware acceleration API until few months ago, that is when Adobe came up with this fantastic new player. I am sure the FTC has something to do with it.

There are bigger forces and interests at play than you can imagine, but it does not matter anymore because Flash is going to work beautifully one 350,000,000 smart phones by 2012. What do you think will be Apple's consumers reaction when they are going to see Flash work fine ion everyone's hands but theirs? That's right, good bye Apple dominance, backs to where it belongs, 10% market share and an insignificant community of 100,000 developers (we are 3,000,000 Flash developers). Deja vu? It's called Macintosh. Apple is a maker of fancy devices for rich people, their temporary market dominance on the mobile market was just because they were first to market, easy to dominate when you are the only product on the shelves.

Let's see how Apple and Flash are going to do this year...
 
Apple refused to collaborate with Adobe for years! Adobe stopped paying attention and ignored the Macintosh 10% market share, can't blame them, what are they supposed to do keep fighting with Apple to support its own OS and spend money on a 10% market share against Apple's will? Apple did not even release hardware acceleration API until few months ago, that is when Adobe came up with this fantastic new player. I am sure the FTC has something to do with it.

There are bigger forces and interests at play than you can imagine, but it does not matter anymore because Flash is going to work beautifully one 350,000,000 smart phones by 2012. What do you think will be Apple's consumers reaction when they are going to see Flash work fine ion everyone's hands but theirs? That's right, good bye Apple dominance, backs to where it belongs, 10% market share and an insignificant community of 100,000 developers (we are 3,000,000 Flash developers). Deja vu? It's called Macintosh. Apple is a maker of fancy devices for rich people, their temporary market dominance on the mobile market was just because they were first to market, easy to dominate when you are the only product on the shelves.

Let's see how Apple and Flash are going to do this year...

I´m an Apple fanboy too, but WELL SAID!

I´m just not brainwashed like all the other Apple fanboys.
 
It amuses me that people forcefully push to "keep Flash off my phone!" whereas others may find it useful.

What's wrong with choice? Offer the option, and allow users to decide whether to enable or disable Flash.

I've had about enough of others insisting on deciding what's best for me, then proceeding to get riled up when questioned.
 
It amuses me that people forcefully push to "keep Flash off my phone!" whereas others may find it useful.

What's wrong with choice? Offer the option, and allow users to decide whether to enable or disable Flash.

I've had about enough of others insisting on deciding what's best for me, then proceeding to get riled up when questioned.

The problem with providing Flash as an option is that it provides a crutch for developers to fall back on instead of redesigning their websites with newer technologies.

Whether you agree with them or not, Apple has decided to support HTML5 and associated technologies over Flash. Providing an option for Flash would delay adoption of HTML5 in favor of legacy code.
 
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It amuses me that people forcefully push to "keep Flash off my phone!" whereas others may find it useful.

What's wrong with choice? Offer the option, and allow users to decide whether to enable or disable Flash.

I agree with having a choice, but I also see SJ's point of view. MOST people don't do any tweaking to their phones; they use it just the way it comes. Thus their experience, out of the box has to be best it can be. So if the iPhone came with Flash enabled, and it causes the battery life to drain quickly; people will be pissed. So he chose to disable it and make their overall phone experience better (in this case, better battery life). Sure some websites won't work, but the vast majority of them do.

Now, I don't see why not having an option to turn ON flash. Just pop up a message indicating it can cause performance issues, or shortened battery life, or instability and let them click "OK" and use it if they want. At least those who want it will know what they are in for; but would still be able to use it as needed.

So yes, I understand why he doesn't want it on there. If it crashes and takes down the OS, people will complain about the OS. If it drains out their battery in 30 minutes, people will complain about the phone. If it heats up the handset, people will complain about the phone. By not having it there, they only can complain about missing content that can be then redirected to the content providers. It's spin. Why they don't let it be enabled via setting for those who want it; I don't know.
 
It amuses me that people forcefully push to "keep Flash off my phone!" whereas others may find it useful.

What's wrong with choice? Offer the option, and allow users to decide whether to enable or disable Flash.

I've had about enough of others insisting on deciding what's best for me, then proceeding to get riled up when questioned.

You have the choice. Buy an iOS device without Flash or buy a different device with Flash. No one is deciding anything for you. Some people prefer the advantages and the principle of a Flash-less device. Some don't. Let your wallet vote. I made my decision. Apple made their decision. You get to make your decision.
 
This hasn´t anything to do with money.

Considering Apple is a business, and businesses exist primarily to make money, yes, it has a LOT to do with money.

As long as people continue to buy iPads and iPhones in enough numbers that Apple continues to make sizable profits quarter after quarter, it will be a confirmation in Steve's eyes (and the eyes of the stockholders, the board, and even the industry in general) that he is making the right decisions, on Flash and other things. Blog posts and whine-fests in forums don't put money in these people's pockets. People lining up for days on end when the next iProduct comes out does. And clearly enough people don't find the lack of Flash that much of a problem that it prevents them from buying iOS devices.

It also doesn't matter if you call these people fanboys or not. At the end of the day, they are fanboys with money, and those fanboys are handing fistfulls of it over to the alleged object of their fanboyism. Investors,. Steve Jobs, and market analysts don't care if the people handing that cash over are people you call fanboys, because money is money. And every dollar spent by an alleged fanboy to Apple is one less dollar spent on a Flash-friendly device.

Again, it doesn´t matter if all the people in the world would switch to Mac OS X or iOS overnight. iOS would still have major weakness (lack of Flash) and Safari would run Flash noticeable worse than other browsers like Firefox.

Actually, it does matter. Again, if everyone switched to iOS/OS X overnight, then everyone has decided that Flash isn't too important to avoid switching. If it's REALLY that important to you to have Flash, you don't switch!

It´s like buying a car with no stereo (even if it´s the best car around otherwise) and the manufacturer denies installing one in the car. Don´t you all think that´s kind of huge PITA and a shame?


It is, but if having a stereo is of the utmost importance to you, then clearly, the lack of a stereo should make it NOT the best car around. Your option then, is to go buy another car... one that has a stereo and by virtue of that stereo being so important to you, is the better car.

Is Flash that important to you? Go buy a Droid X. I'm told it works really well.

(Not that this jives with my experience, but I'm still told this nonetheless.)

For better or for worse, this is how the industry, and how the market in general, works. There is no iOS device that supports Flash out of the box. So you must choose:

- Buy something else
- Suck it up and buy the iOS device
- Make your own

If you choose to suck it up and buy the iOS device, a lack of out-of-the-box Flash is a reality you must accept, until market forces persuade Apple otherwise.

If enough people felt having Flash exceeded the importance of having iOS, then maybe that would force Apple to reconsider. So far, it has not. Like it or not, that's the way it is!

What do you think will be Apple's consumers reaction when they are going to see Flash work fine ion everyone's hands but theirs? That's right, good bye Apple dominance, backs to where it belongs, 10% market share and an insignificant community of 100,000 developers (we are 3,000,000 Flash developers).

Sounds like Flash has a lot going for it. So... why do you even care so much what Apple does? And why does Adobe?
 
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Apple refused to collaborate with Adobe for years! Adobe stopped paying attention and ignored the Macintosh 10% market share, can't blame them, what are they supposed to do keep fighting with Apple to support its own OS and spend money on a 10% market share against Apple's will? Apple did not even release hardware acceleration API until few months ago, that is when Adobe came up with this fantastic new player. I am sure the FTC has something to do with it.

There are bigger forces and interests at play than you can imagine, but it does not matter anymore because Flash is going to work beautifully one 350,000,000 smart phones by 2012. What do you think will be Apple's consumers reaction when they are going to see Flash work fine ion everyone's hands but theirs? That's right, good bye Apple dominance, backs to where it belongs, 10% market share and an insignificant community of 100,000 developers (we are 3,000,000 Flash developers). Deja vu? It's called Macintosh. Apple is a maker of fancy devices for rich people, their temporary market dominance on the mobile market was just because they were first to market, easy to dominate when you are the only product on the shelves.

Let's see how Apple and Flash are going to do this year...

I´m an Apple fanboy too, but WELL SAID!

I´m just not brainwashed like all the other Apple fanboys.

Apple overall don't care about market dominance...they never have. But that's beside the point. You two are clueless.
 
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Right now Apple sucks for everyone but Apple's fans, wake up people!
...
Apple is a maker of fancy devices for rich people, their temporary market dominance on the mobile market was just because they were first to market, easy to dominate when you are the only product on the shelves.

Let's see how Apple and Flash are going to do this year...

Wow... It always amazes me how an effort at a rational discussion of something where reasonable minds can disagree can devolve into a name calling, stereotyping shouting match more fit for 9 year olds...
I'm not an Apple "fan", but I appreciate the simplicity and ease of use of many of their products.
I'm not a "rich" person by any stretch, and there are plenty of devices manufactured by other companies that are even more fancy than Apple's.
And the statistics about growth of the various platforms shoots holes in your argument that their dominance is solely based on their 'first to market' strategy.
But even if all that is true, from a consumer's point of view, no one wants to have Flash crash systems and suck battery life dry (whoever's fault it is) just as no one wants to go to a webpage and not be able to view content. Just make it work...
 
You have the choice. Buy an iOS device without Flash or buy a different device with Flash. No one is deciding anything for you. Some people prefer the advantages and the principle of a Flash-less device. Some don't. Let your wallet vote. I made my decision. Apple made their decision. You get to make your decision.

Point noted regarding choice, in the general overall purchase power sense. But you fail to answer why Flash cannot be offered as an option on the iPhone.

In short, what's the harm? Queue: Apple's HTML5 promotion
 
The problem with providing Flash as an option is that it provides a crutch for developers to fall back on instead of redesigning their websites with newer technologies.

Whether you agree with them or not, Apple has decided to support HTML5 and associated technologies over Flash. Providing an option for Flash would delay adoption of HTML5 in favor of legacy code.

So how do you know that Flash will ever die? You have a ball of fortune? What if it never dies?

And let´s say in 10 years Flash is complitely vanished and HTML5 adopted, but I die in a car accident just in 10 years. That means I suffered freaking ten years of my life without Flash, because of Apple. :mad:

Option would only make the transition less painless.
 
The problem with providing Flash as an option is that it provides a crutch for developers to fall back on instead of redesigning their websites with newer technologies.

Whether you agree with them or not, Apple has decided to support HTML5 and associated technologies over Flash. Providing an option for Flash would delay adoption of HTML5 in favor of legacy code.

You're probably right with this. And Apple does have a long history of cutting out things that they feel are old or are no longer supported. When they switched processors the old ones were support for a short period of time and then you had to upgrade. Even things like AppleTalk, etc.

Where as Windows, up until recently has tried to carry the world on their shoulders. Even supporting DOS based apps. I give credit to MS for being able to pull off such compatibility for so long; that is no easy task while still trying to move forward. Unfortunately I think some of the 50 ton burden that they have been carrying forward is what has hurt their stability, creativity and innovation.

Two different approaches to problems. Apple saying we will move forward, you either join us or you lose our customer base. MS tries to make everything work even if it means that they move forward much more slowly. Neither approach is bad, and it's good that Apple pushes the envelope, it encourages change. Sometimes I get the impression that we would be still using Windows '95 if it was up to MS . . . maybe Win '98 by now? :)
 
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