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Interesting point, can you develop? What makes dealing with poorly developed Flash legacy websites any different than dealing with old, inconsistent, failing HTML websites? What about the limitation and constraint cause by backward compatibility and depreciation? Sounds legacy to me, but I want to hear your full thought.

Can I develop? Are you asking if I am a web developer? Yes, I've been developing for 11 years. If you're asking for me to expand on my point, here you go:

Web standards specs allow for something called "graceful degradation". In the case of HTML and CSS (and most JS implementations, too*) that graceful degradation is built right into the codebase. That's why modern browsers can render older websites without any problem.

Standards compliant content (even code which no longer validates) can always be rendered and is always accessible by its nature. That is why you can still read Twitter on a WAP browser, rendering only the HTML with some WAP-based styling.

More importantly, however, it also means that all web standards compliant content (or content that doesn't rely on plugins) is inherently accessible (or can be viewed via screen readers or other devices for people with disabilities).

*old browsers can't render javascript, but by virtue of it being the behaviour layer of the three-layer structure of web content a lack of javascript is generally not prohibitive to rendering and consuming the content at a basic level.
 
Can I develop? Are you asking if I am a web developer? Yes, I've been developing for 11 years. If you're asking for me to expand on my point, here you go:

It was the later.

Web standards specs allow for something called "graceful degradation". In the case of HTML and CSS (and most JS implementations, too) that graceful degradation is built right into the codebase. That's why modern browsers can render older websites without any problem.

Yes, such as the alt tag on image in order to display alternative text for non graphical browser, I get that and will not argue over the fact that it is a good thing. But tell me, how do you compare that to Flash precisely?

While I agree that HTML5 is an overall good thing happening to the web it cannot be an alternative to Flash. I get the whole "snow ball effect" with developers having no choice but to show something in HTML5 for iOS, definitely pushed it but I question the motives and I also question the efficiency, which brought me to believe long ago that Apple has other motives.

Standards compliant content (even code which no longer validates) can always be rendered and is always accessible by its nature. That is why you can still read Twitter on a WAP browser, rendering only the HTML with some WAP-based styling.

I'm sure I can achieve the same result with the Flash Platform, do you believe otherwise?

More importantly, however, it also means that all web standards compliant content (or content that doesn't rely on plugins) is inherently accessible (or can be viewed via screen readers or other devices for people with disabilities).

Flex includes 28 accessible components that accelerate application development and create a consistent, usable experience for users with disabilities. I just sincerely believe neither the technology, nor the company, nor the developers deserve to be entirely banned from a major chunk of the worldwide mobile market just because of one man opinion.
 
Interesting how you decide I make things up before I can even answer. The trend started last year but is really going to reach its critical mass this year.

Android marketshare growing, iPhone shrinking, says Quantcast:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/15692/android_marketshare_growing_iphone_shrinking_says_quantcast

Apple’s Movie Business Faces Shrinking-Pie Problem:
http://www.investorplace.com/30453/apples-movie-business-faces-shrinking-pie-problem

Android pips BlackBerry OS for the lead in US subscriber charts:
http://www.gsmarena.com/android_pip...e_lead_in_us_subscriber_charts_-news-2399.php

Android Market Share Grows as iPhone Shrinks:
http://www.maclife.com/article/news/android_market_share_grows_iphone_shrinks

As Android Tablets Arrives, iPad’s Marketshare Shrinks From 95% To 77%:
http://www.cultofmac.com/as-android-tablets-arrives-ipads-marketshare-shrinks-from-95-to-77/79755

Are you really going to pretend that we weren't talking about the iPhone's smartphone market share? Seriously? Web consumption? Quarterly dip in subscibers? Movies?

You were wrong. You confused slower growth with shrinking market share. Stop shifting the goalposts.

What about the billion of HTML and CSS legacy websites, are you going to block them from Safari too?

Again with the fallacies. No one said anything of the sort. Yes, the same problem exists with some legacy HTML websites to differentiate between hover and scroll. I've never found it to stop me from navigating an HTML site. It's just more likely to be a problem in legacy Flash applications, particularly games (especially combined with the software keyboard taking up half the screen.)
 
you have a more full browsing experience with flash than you do without flash.

Yep, you get all those really annoying advertisements, memory leaks, slow web pages, browser crashes, security holes (and critical zero-day updates), and higher bandwidth usage.

Definitely a more full browsing experience.

Past the tongue-in-cheek, there's only one that uses Silverlight that I visit, which provides a service that I can't get anywhere else (and there's a LONG thread in their forum about the choice to use a depreciated technology). I am stuck with a couple of ActiveX sites (which is why I run a VM) for an enterprise application. But I can't think of a single site that I visit where I need/use/want flash or flex.
 
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I don't know why people can't just let it go, ****** Flash isn't coming to any iOS device, get over it.

There are far more cons than pros when it comes to Flash. Yes some things are best suited for Flash, but technology evolves.

You don't see people still complaining that they're Windows 98 PC or Mac running Mac OS 8 can't access half of the internet anymore.
 
Most of Flash are ADs, so keep it out of my device.

Oh yeah? What about this:
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2009-video-vignettes/morgan-stanley-matrix-by-morgan-stanley

Are you really going to pretend that we weren't talking about the iPhone's smartphone market share? Seriously? Web consumption? Quarterly dip in subscibers? Movies?

Read the links again, all of them (articles and numbers). Also, there is something we disagree about, I believe based on what I see and hear across the industry that the money for years to come will be mostly in digital goods, entertainment (music and movies) and application related revenues, not so much hardware. That is also why I believe Apple was so desperate to keep Flash out, because Flash has been already leading the way for RIA for a decade and Apple does not cut it.
 
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Do you work for adobe? Your use of jargon suggests you're more concerned with flash's financial performance than it's actual performance.

I am a conultant, I have been hired in the past by Adobe as technical architect for specific projects but I am free and Independant, I chose Flex and I have been working with it every day for the past 6 years so I kind of know what's up with performance. Flash has grown, Flex reaches maturity this year and like or it not there is nothing better out there for entertainment, media, games and live communication (voice over ip, video conference including P2P)
 
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I am a conultant, I have been hired in the past by Adobe as technical architect for specific projects but I am free and Independant, I chose Flex and I have been working with it every day for the past 6 years so I kind of know what's up with performance. Flash has grown, Flex reaches maturity this year and like or it not there is nothing better out there for entertainment, media, games and live communication (voice over ip, video conference including P2P)

So you're not being paid to post on this forum in support of adobe products?
 
Read the links again, all of them (articles and numbers).

I don't need to read the links again. None of them show year over year quarterly smartphone market share numbers, which is what we were talking about. You were wrong, so you are trying to change the topic. Again.

Also, there is something we disagree about, I believe based on what I see and hear across the industry that the money for years to come will be mostly in digital goods, entertainment (music and movies) and application related revenues, not so much hardware.

Anecdotal evidence aside, the actual numbers show you are wrong.

That is also why I believe Apple was so desperate to keep Flash out, because Flash has been already leading the way for RIA for a decade and Apple does not cut it.

You believe what you do, because you start with the assumption that Applesucks. The actual facts do not support your opinion unless you start with that assumption.
 
That is also why I believe Apple was so desperate to keep Flash out, because Flash has been already leading the way for RIA for a decade and Apple does not cut it.

You say Apple does not cut it and claim that there is some sort of conspiracy, but this argument has been going on for over a year. In that time Adobe has been unable to ship a mobile version of that Flash runs well on a significant portion of existing hardware. Even now the gold versions struggle and promises of a quality user experience slip from beta to beta.
Adobe had a year to prove Apple wrong. I know that you will never admit it, but the evidence from last year instead supports Apple position. Flash was not viable on mobile devices in 2010 (I'm taking in general, please don't point at one or two high end examples to prove your point).
Now we are in 2011 and brand new high end device may finally be fast enough, but most users don't replace their devices every year. A critical mass of mobile users with hardware capable of running Flash well is at least a year off.

My point is that regardless of OS, it still far to early to suggest any sort of Flash dominance on the mobile market. Developers looking to target mobile user would be ill advised to require Flash in the next year and will have better saturation today if they focus on HTML5.
 
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And now, with this nice security hole it opens up : Adobe Flash Security Issue

And from the security bulletin itself :
This vulnerability (CVE-2011-0609) could cause a crash and potentially allow an attacker to take control of the affected system.

So, not only does Flash crash, it also crashes and leaves the system open to vulnerabilities. Nice.
 
A lot of opinions in this thread, and some interesting arguments. However, maybe we could just ask and answer a few questions. One, if a website is flash-based, not html5 based, then we simply cannot view that site and/or it's flash content, is this NOT a disadvantage? Second question, in order to meet the needs of more people, would it not be better to have the OPTION in the browser settings to use flash or not? I understand that some people want to point out that many flash sites and flash based-content has been optimized and can work on the Iphone, but there are many others that don't. I am a new Iphone user, and besides the poor notifications/alerts system of the Iphone, I prefer it over all of my Android and blackberry devices....but when I come across a webpage on my Iphone that uses flash, I dislike that I have to wait until I get to a pc, because I don't even have the option to turn flash on and off on my Iphone.
 
The same is true when you run across any website using a sufficiently obsolete technology. All I've noticed that is flash, in my use of click to flash, are simplistic games, advertisements, and video streaming sites.
 
A lot of opinions in this thread, and some interesting arguments. However, maybe we could just ask and answer a few questions. One, if a website is flash-based, not html5 based, then we simply cannot view that site and/or it's flash content, is this NOT a disadvantage? Second question, in order to meet the needs of more people, would it not be better to have the OPTION in the browser settings to use flash or not? I understand that some people want to point out that many flash sites and flash based-content has been optimized and can work on the Iphone, but there are many others that don't. I am a new Iphone user, and besides the poor notifications/alerts system of the Iphone, I prefer it over all of my Android and blackberry devices....but when I come across a webpage on my Iphone that uses flash, I dislike that I have to wait until I get to a pc, because I don't even have the option to turn flash on and off on my Iphone.

Truly I understand your position. But ask yourself; on your previous Android handset, how would you compare the experience of a Flash site to an HTML site? With that in mind would you prefer more sites to use Flash, or HTML?

Options always seem nice, but it goes both ways. If you have the option to view Flash, the developer has the option to require it. IMO Flash harms the mobile browsing experience more then it helps. (especially with single core devices)
 
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Ask yourself; on your previous Android handset, how would you compare the experience of a Flash site to an HTML site? With that in mind would you prefer more sites to use Flash, or HTML?

I honestly didn't have a problem with Flash on my Android phone. But, that doesn't answer the questions that I've posed. I'm not asking for more Flash or more HTML......the point that I'm making can't be argued. And that point is that, as long as websites continue to use flash without HTML5 compatibility, when using the Ipad, Iphone, Ipod Touch, we won't be able to view that website. With that being the case, wouldn't be better to have the OPTION to use flash if we need to, by giving the ability to turn it on and off in the settings? That seems like it would meet the needs/desires of people who don't want to be able to view adobe flash content and those who do, and it allows us to decide whether or not to do it on a case by case basis.
 
...But, that doesn't answer the questions that I've posed. I'm not asking for more Flash or more HTML......the point that I'm making can't be argued. And that point is that, as long as websites continue to use flash without HTML5 compatibility, when using the Ipad, Iphone, Ipod Touch, we won't be able to view that website. With that being the case, wouldn't be better to have the OPTION to use flash if we need to, by giving the ability to turn it on and off in the settings? That seems like it would meet the needs/desires of people who don't want to be able to view adobe flash content and those who do, and it allows us to decide whether or not to do it on a case by case basis.
Sorry, I addressed the second part in an edit...
Options always seem nice, but it goes both ways. If you have the option to view Flash, the developer has the option to require it. IMO Flash harms the mobile browsing experience more then it helps. (especially with single core devices)

There are basically two options:
1. You can take a tactical approach and get a Flash player today thereby increasing Flash content on the web
2. You can take a strategic approach and trade short term convince for long term openness and compatibility.

I prefer option 2. People like Flex prefer option 1. They truly want Flash to replace HTML. By controlling the player, Adobe would dictate quality of your internet experience on a given OS.
 
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Sorry, I addressed the second part in an edit...

There are basically two options:
1. You can take a tactical approach and give Adobe ownership of a core component of the web in order to view Flash today.
2. You can take a strategic approach and trade short term convince for long term openness and compatibility.

People like Flex truly want Flash to replace HTML. By controlling the player, Adobe would dictate which OS's can view the internet.

Well see, I'm not asking to change either thing. All I'm asking for is the option to use flash or not use flash, by Apple allowing the option to turn it on and off in the settings. In my opinion, that is the only way to please everyone until every website is using html5, thus making flash useless. Is that not correct?
 
I honestly didn't have a problem with Flash on my Android phone. But, that doesn't answer the questions that I've posed. I'm not asking for more Flash or more HTML......the point that I'm making can't be argued. And that point is that, as long as websites continue to use flash without HTML5 compatibility, when using the Ipad, Iphone, Ipod Touch, we won't be able to view that website. With that being the case, wouldn't be better to have the OPTION to use flash if we need to, by giving the ability to turn it on and off in the settings? That seems like it would meet the needs/desires of people who don't want to be able to view adobe flash content and those who do, and it allows us to decide whether or not to do it on a case by case basis.

He did answer your question in the other half of his post. (The part that you did not quote.)

The other half to the anti-flash argument is the promotion of HTML5 and related open standards to display much of the content that is currently produced in Flash. The OPTION to enable Flash allows developer to require Flash to view content. Their is no incentive to move from their comfort zone with Flash.
 
Well see, I'm not asking to change either thing. All I'm asking for is the option to use flash or not use flash, by Apple allowing the option to turn it on and off in the settings. In my opinion, that is the only way to please everyone until every website is using html5, thus making flash useless. Is that not correct?

If Flash is installed on your device, you are in the install base; regardless of whether you use click-to-flash or not.

Put it this way:
By giving the option to the user, you're really giving the option to the developer, thereby removing the option from the user. Flash remains viable.

By removing the option from the user, you remove the option from the developer. Flash losses viability.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're a Windows user (I don't mean that in any negative way). As an OSX user I have experienced years of being a second class user in Adobe's eyes. The Mac Flash player has been terrible for a long time. Many people here don't want to allow Flash dominance to increase because they don't trust Adobe to adequately support secondary platforms. Adobe will inevitable pick a lead mobile platform and the player quality for the other platforms will suffer.

I don't hate Adobe, this is just how businesses run. The internet needs to be based on standards that are outside of any single companies control.

He did answer your question in the other half of his post. (The part that you did not quote.).
That was my fault. I edited my post after he began his reply. (I know it's a bad habit)
 
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I honestly didn't have a problem with Flash on my Android phone. But, that doesn't answer the questions that I've posed. I'm not asking for more Flash or more HTML.

The answer isn't clear black and white. When the iPhone was first coming out, Flash was no where near ready to run on it; in fact it wasn't a good experience on the Mac at all. Apple and Adobe both complained about one another, and they both had a reason why the other was wrong (for mobile market, Adobe was wrong, for the Mac, It looks like Apple was wrong). But because at that time, it would not work on the iPhone and Adobe did DRAG their feet, it got left off and years later it STILL wasn't ready. Finally Adobe is ready but the boat has left port and there are other solutions. As Apple now points out, having ONE company responsible for something like this is NOT good; developers should be using open standards like HTML5.

Would it be ideal to allow Flash? Yeah, I guess it would. But it would have to have a switch to enable / disable it. Plus, Flash does eat battery, and is not nearly as stable as it should be. Thus it does put a black eye on Apple (yes, we know that Adobe would be at fault, but the average consumer wouldn't care or know). And if it is there, it is another crutch for developers to use instead of moving to another standard.

Well see, I'm not asking to change either thing. All I'm asking for is the option to use flash or not use flash, by Apple allowing the option to turn it on and off in the settings. In my opinion, that is the only way to please everyone until every website is using html5, thus making flash useless. Is that not correct?

For people who know, would understand it and when flash crashes, or eats the battery they would complain about Adobe. But MOST people would not complain to Adobe, they would complain about/to Apple. Thus it would give Apple a black eye and potentially a support nightmare.

Just look at yesterday, a security hole in Flash that allows a hacker to take control of your system. If this happened and Apple had it on the iPhone, who do you think the people would complain to, Adobe or Apple? The average consumer would complain to the company who sold it to them, ie, Apple.
 
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Adobe has learned it's lesson

Yes, Adobe has learned it's lesson:

http://www.webmonkey.com/2011/03/adobe-unveils-wallaby-flash-to-html5-converter/

Adobe has been working hard to embrace HTML5. The company released its own HTML5 video player, and Adobe Illustrator and Dreamweaver CS5 contain a number of new HTML5 export tools. Now Adobe is turning its HTML5 attentions to Flash with the release of Wallaby, a new Flash-to-HTML5 converter.

Wallaby is a free Adobe AIR application that allows designers and developers to convert Adobe Flash files (FLAs) into standards-based HTML5, CSS 3 and Javascript files.

It is not ready for primetime yet, but it looks like Adobe is finally trying to come up to the plate, and bat.

so maybe everyone can stop crying about the lack of flash. Which after using the ipad for a year, and the iphone for 3 or 4 years, I have not missed at all.
 
There are basically two options: 1. You can take a tactical approach and get a Flash player today thereby increasing Flash content on the web
2. You can take a strategic approach and trade short term convince for long term openness and compatibility. I prefer option 2. People like Flex prefer option 1.

First of all you are putting words in my mouth and I would really appreciate if we could avoid that because it's irritating. Secondly, I do not believe it is that easy because what you consider "short term convince" is called innovation and that means it is not short term at all, Flash has always been and will always be more advanced than HTML, it's not like HTML is catching up! For as long as Flash will allow developers to do today what HTML will allow to do in 5 years (if ever at all) this war will be worthless and would not even exist if it was not Apple. Thirdly, Flash/Flex is way, way.... way way way more open and compatible than anything Apple!

Here is latest news on Apple and Adobe battle. Seems like Adobe wants Flash support in apple devices which seems to be a rare possibilty. Article is about new adobe product called Wallaby that can convert falsh to html
Now Adobe is turning its HTML5 attentions to Flash with the release of Wallaby, a new Flash-to-HTML5 converter.

You know what that product says, right? Before all, it is not a product actually it is an "experiment" from Adobe's "labs", this said the "experiment" with code name "Wallaby" sends a clear message to all the haters who spread lies about Flash being responsible for ads or basic animations: here, have it in HTML! Adobe is cleansing Flash of all the crappy use cases to leave room for the new era of Flash which is Flex and AIR. I could post again the video with CEOs from ARM, Google, HTC, Motorola, Palm, Intel, Nvidia and others all saying that Flash is a critical component of the future of mobility, but you could also do your home work and google a bit.

So you're not being paid to post on this forum in support of adobe products?

If I was I could not do this, truth is I have never been a company's employee in my entire life, ever. That makes my strength: I chose my technologies, my tools and I pick every single of my clients. If I claim something rocks I believe it from bottom of my guts, same thing when I claim something sucks. Look, I am really good at what I do and if HTML was the new and better alternative to Flash I would probably be one of the references for it.

You say Apple does not cut it and claim that there is some sort of conspiracy, but this argument has been going on for over a year. In that time Adobe has been unable to ship a mobile version of that Flash runs well on a significant portion of existing hardware. Even now the gold versions struggle and promises of a quality user experience slip from beta to beta.

You are correct, except for the betas (I guess you refer to Flash Player 10.2) for which the feedback all along has been very positive, same for the final releases on pc, linux, mac and now on mobiles. If you were among the couple of thousand "facebook friends" of mine (including about 30 Adobe employees and people from Apple) you would know what I think of it because I am as critical of Adobe as I am of any other company. Turns out there are reasons why Adobe was late on Mobile but still its their responsibility. However, the problem has been addressed and the feedback for Flash Player 10.2 across computers and mobiles is overwhelming, those are facts.

I would have been supportive of Apple if the message was "Adobe, we love you but get your act together or (and in the meantime) go play somewhere else". Adobe would have reacted the way they did which was to work their asses off to make Flash the best thing on mobile. I could again post the video demos from all over the place but you can also do your home work and google a bit. Flash is now ready to rock and roll from phones to tablets to TVs on top of its existing penetration on 99% of all computers, there is nothing Apple's PR and propaganda army can do about it (anymore) as the opposite forces have been underestimated (or someone saw a bit too big). Only Flash's performance and applications on mobile will define its future on mobile, like everywhere else. If it is that bad it will fail, truth is it never did and walked through war after war against the giants (always attacked, never attacking), it's still standing and undefeated.

Second question, in order to meet the needs of more people, would it not be better to have the OPTION in the browser settings to use flash or not?

Going back to my previous answer above, the option would be offered if the real motives were performance but they are not, performance and security issues have been misused as weapons against Adobe over Flash. Some studies shown that HTML5 is as bad as Flash for performance when used for the same purpose, and there is a lot of warnings and issues (including lawsuits) with Apple about privacy and security over iOS so Apple is not in a position to criticize Flash really, I am even surprised Jobs was able to get it through, I thought Apple consumers smarter than that. I guess that's the price to pay for not being the underdog anymore.

In the meantime, Google's engineers decided to work with Adobe's and sandbox Flash for security, optimize it for performance and bake it in Chrome to make sure it's always up to date, while Nvidia's engineers did the same to make Flash on Tegra 2 "mind blowing" (as per Nvidia's CEO), ARM's engineers also joined forces to optimize Flash "on the full range of underpowered devices" (as per ARM's CEO), so did DoCoMo, Intel, RIM and so on with pretty much all the leading tech companies involved in mobile except Apple which in the meantime keeps spreading the lies and propaganda through their PR and fans armada just to maintain the status quo. If we look back at history this looks pretty imperialistic to me and we all know what happened to every empire.
 
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