Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash

[EricNau]

MODERATOR NOTE

Tensions are running a little high in this thread at the moment. We're going to close it temporarily, allowing time for cool-off and cleanup. Thanks.

 

[flexengineer]

A note to trouble makers first, before to jump on my case and start polluting this thread with your personal rants using whatever you can, including my posts that you systematically accused to be only motivated by my desire to wake up the thread, note that it is not true and in this case I said many times that I will come back on this very specific issue once there is more than Baldimac's word and mine to debate.

It all started when I said that Flash was supported by virtually every single new smart phone coming into the market after summer 2010, then agreed with Baldimac that it might be a bit much and I should have said "most" but the fight kept going, I was accused to make it all up and use "most" for something that is no more than 5%:

And you know that's not true either. Unless by "virtually every single phone and tablet", you simply mean "a lot of Android phones and the Galaxy Tab." Which is about 5% of what you actually said.

Adobe to Bring Flash Access to Mobile Devices
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Artic...ing-Flash-Access-to-Mobile-Devices-74678.aspx

"This will extend the opportunities for monetization of premium content to more points of playback and will help consumers enjoy premium content on (most of) their favorite devices." The "(most of)" comment addresses the issue of the elephant in the room—the iOS operating system used in iPad, iPhone and iPod touch devices."

 

[Geckotek]

Who cares, flash is a boat anchor...let it die already!

 

[BaldiMac]

It all started when I said that Flash was supported by virtually every single new smart phone coming into the market after summer 2010,

That's not what you said. You even quoted me quoting what you said below.

You said:

Flash is on virtually every single phone and tablet coming into the market since.... well, since the day 10.1 came out 6 months ago

Not "smart phone." You said "virtually every single phone and tablet."

And you said "Flash is on..." Not "will be on." So the article you posted with predictions for the future is irrelevant to proving your claim.

I was accused to make it all up and use "most" for something that is no more than 5%:

Accused? I provided the numbers to prove my claim. Do you disagree with any of the numbers that I provided? Or are you just ignoring them because they don't fit your argument?

I'm not sure why you revived this argument.

 

[flexengineer]

You said Not "smart phone." You said "virtually every single phone and tablet.

We can play with words for days, you made your point and I said you were right and I should have used "most of the smart phone and tablets". Of course it can only be only smart phone, Flash (and not Flash lite) does not exist on regular phone but anyway even "most" was too much for you.

Few weeks later whatever I said, whatever you said, Flash is indeed on or installable on most smartphones and tablets coming into the market. Apple's attempt to kill Flash failed and as I said, the war is over! This is what I meant by the war is over, I just could not tell about it yet:

Adobe AIR 2.6 SDK now available with updated iOS support!
http://blogs.adobe.com/air/2011/03/adobe-air-2-6-sdk-now-available-with-updated-ios-support.html

Basically what happened is that Apple shut the door so we broke in through the window with the support of the European Commission and FTC, on top of:

Adobe to Bring Flash Access to Mobile Devices
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Artic...ing-Flash-Access-to-Mobile-Devices-74678.aspx

Studios will offer their content cheaper, without Apple's 30% to non Apple mobile phone, that is going to be a bigger pill to swallow for Apple's users and one more reason for people to buy something else. Now let's see if the number are going to follow (go down for Apple) as I claimed they will through 2011.

That is the situation Apple's ideologists created: Apple is now isolated in its corner and when its market share is going to fall around 10% application publisher and content distributor will not even care what you can do or not on your phone. Then, Apple fans will cry and victimize themselves "Adobe does not support us, blablabla" like for Mac, totally ignoring all Apple's bs that brought us there in the first place.

Meanwhile:

Judge orders Steve Jobs to appear: Apple's CEO will have to answer questions in a six-year-old iTunes monopoly suit
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/22/judge-orders-steve-jobs-to-appear/

 

[BaldiMac]

We can play with words for days, you made your point and I said you were right and I should have used "most of the smart phone and tablets". Of course it can only be only smart phone, Flash (and not Flash lite) does not exist on regular phone but anyway even "most" was too much for you.

Because "most" was wrong! According to Adobe's own estimates, they only expect to be on 25% or so of smartphones in 2011. Why are you having such a hard time accepting hard numbers? "Most" requires a majority. More than 50%. To use it any other way is playing with words.

Few weeks later whatever I said, whatever you said, Flash is indeed on or installable on most smartphones and tablets coming into the market. Apple's attempt to kill Flash failed and as I said, the war is over!

Yes, your made up war is over. You've won [something]. Not sure what Apple has lost though.

This is what I meant by the war is over, I just could not tell about it yet:

Adobe AIR 2.6 SDK now available with updated iOS support!
http://blogs.adobe.com/air/2011/03/adobe-air-2-6-sdk-now-available-with-updated-ios-support.html

Super! Glad you have a new platform to develop for. Now we can have more apps that aren't quite as good as natively developed apps. But it will be easier for developers. Yippee.

Although, wasn't this part of the "war" over when Apple changed their development terms last summer?

Basically what happened is that Apple shut the door so we broke in through the video with the support of the European Commission and FTC, on top of:

Adobe to Bring Flash Access to Mobile Devices
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Artic...ing-Flash-Access-to-Mobile-Devices-74678.aspx

Meanwhile:

Judge orders Steve Jobs to appear: Apple's CEO will have to answer questions in a six-year-old iTunes monopoly suit
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/22/judge-orders-steve-jobs-to-appear/

And more of your FUD.

And as I shown with Amazon and Flash Access, more and more cheaper media and entertainment are coming into the market, offers for which iOS users are simply ignored... That is the situation Apple's ideologist created: Apple is now isolated in its corner and when its market share is going to fall around 10% application publisher and content distributor will not even care wht you can do or not on your phone. Then, Apple fans will cry and victimize themselves "Adobe does not support us, blablabla" like for Mac, totally ignoring all Apple's bs that brought us there in the first place.

Which would be one of the reasons Apple chose not to support a proprietary plugin. Funny how it just goes around in circles.

 

[vvswarup]

That is your ideology and that is not what the people were told, they were told Flash is **** on mobile, is outdated and not needed anymore. Those are lies, Flash was not even on mobile how can it sucks? Flash is doing in 2011 stuff other technology might, maybe, make possible in years from now so it's not outdated at all, it is actually always ahead of time. As far as being needed it is really not up to Apple to define that, let developers and project owners make up their mind. Why Apple did not do what everyone's did which is to address the problems (do I need to post the CEOs video and the 10.2 demos?). Why did Apple systematically create obstacle for Adobe regarding improving Flash for Mac? If the people were told what you just said above, most of them would answer "screw you, your war, your *****, my phone!".



Dude, are you gonna stop to call me a liar lover and over! I said Adobe is more open than Apple and it is true, it does not mean Apple is not open here and there, it means Apple is not open as much as Adobe Flash Platform is. When Apple made that point, Adobe immediately answered with the facts and that was the end of it, Apple started to change topic and stopped real quick the 'open' thing. Keep in mid that I have been getting notification for every single article, forums discussion or blog post mentioning Adobe and Apple together since early 1999, have you? If not, how can you say I lie about the PR strategy then? Have you seen the wave of lies spreading in blogs all the same day? It takes PR power to achieve that.

Adobe does not refrain people from doing what they want in the browser, they do not require business to use Apple's proprietary technology or system to conduct business in applications, Adobe does not racket 30% from all revenue made on the phone (which for the most part should be made in the browser with 0% commission). Adobe does not tell us what tool we should to use, anyone can compete with any of the Flash Platform products, most of them are either open source or open enough to allow competitive products such as Wowza or Red5, they only control the player to refrain anyone from messing with it and that is what we developers want. So from you or Apple to say Adobe is not open enough is beyond ignorance, or a lie. Funny you call me a liar.



No, Apple stopped when the European Union and the FTC started a joint investigation after Apple shown bad faith by trying to ban Adobe's development product from generating native iOS app. That was the starting point for the wake up, developers and businesses ended up seeing through Apple's game and started thinking "wait a minute", it cut short Apple's ability to carry on its mission and Google joining forces with Adobe pretty much cut it short too, Apple does not make the cut anymore.



I was making a reference to what happened with the Roman empire for instance, once it could not get any bigger the cost of just maintaining the status quo of the empire (maintaining the lies, the army, the propaganda) without being able to increase power and wealth (everything is already taken over), brought the empire to its knee.

Actually, either you are lying or don't know the facts:

Adobe does not refrain people from doing what they want in the browser, they do not require business to use Apple's proprietary technology or system to conduct business in applications, Adobe does not racket 30% from all revenue made on the phone (which for the most part should be made in the browser with 0% commission). Adobe does not tell us what tool we should to use, anyone can compete with any of the Flash Platform products, most of them are either open source or open enough to allow competitive products such as Wowza or Red5, they only control the player to refrain anyone from messing with it and that is what we developers want. So from you or Apple to say Adobe is not open enough is beyond ignorance, or a lie. Funny you call me a liar.

Flash is a 100% proprietary technology. Also, do you seriously believe that Adobe gives away Flash? It doesn't charge anything for Flash player, but Adobe charges royalties to those who create content in Flash. Do you know how much it costs to buy Flash (not Flash player but the content to create it)? It's at least $500. Adobe charges hundreds, if not thousands, for its software.

Also, by definition, Adobe Flash is not open. In connection with this forum, a piece of "open" software is one in which users have unfettered access to the source code. By "unfettered access," I mean that the software is not encumbered with license agreements that specify acceptable uses. Adobe Flash does not meet this definition, plain and simple.

 

[grawk]

I still don't see the point in arguing with someone who is acting as a representative of adobe, whether in an official or unofficial capacity. He obviously has an agenda, and engaging him only furthers it.

 

[flexengineer]

Flash is a 100% proprietary technology. Also, do you seriously believe that Adobe gives away Flash? It doesn't charge anything for Flash player, but Adobe charges royalties to those who create content in Flash. Do you know how much it costs to buy Flash (not Flash player but the content to create it)? It's at least $500. Adobe charges hundreds, if not thousands, for its software. Also, by definition, Adobe Flash is not open. In connection with this forum, a piece of "open" software is one in which users have unfettered access to the source code. By "unfettered access," I mean that the software is not encumbered with license agreements that specify acceptable uses. Adobe Flash does not meet this definition, plain and simple.

That is a plain lie and you know it, you do not have to buy any Adobe product to build Flash content and apps, you do not need to pay any royalty whatsoever. Kind of funny I am talking about being open or proprietary with an Apple supporter, LMAO! It took the FTC and the European Commission to refrain Apple from forcing developers to buy Mac and use Apple's tools and language of choice to build mobile apps for iOS and iOS only, so please give me a break!

I maintain everything I said previously:

Adobe does not refrain people from doing what they want in the browser, they do not require business to use Apple's proprietary technology or system to conduct business in applications, Adobe does not racket 30% from all revenue made on the phone (which for the most part should be made in the browser with 0% commission). Adobe does not tell us what tool we should to use, anyone can compete with any of the Flash Platform products.

Flash Player is part of a rich ecosystem of both open and proprietary technologies.

The core engine of Flash Player (AVM+) is open source and was donated to the Mozilla Foundation, where it is actively maintained. The file formats supported by Flash Player, SWF and FLV/F4V, as well as the RTMP and AMF protocols are freely available and openly published. Anyone can use the specifications without requiring permission from Adobe. Third parties can and do build audio, video, and data services that compete with those from Adobe.

There are no restrictions on the development of SWF authoring tools, and anyone can build their own SWF or FLV/F4V player.

Flex, the primary application framework for the Adobe Flash Platform, is also open source and is actively maintained and developed by Adobe and the community.

Finally, the Flash Platform has a rich developer ecosystem of both open and proprietary tools and technologies, including developer IDEs and environments such as FDT, IntelliJ, and haXe; open source runtimes such as Gnash; and open source video servers such as Red5.

So, if you do not like Flash it is your problem not iOS users problem, just don't use it, don't install it and get out of the way. Like it or not but since this month we deploy Flash apps straight to iPad and iPhone so the only victim lefts are the "do not know better" Apple customers and their so called 'browser', they still can't get cheaper media and entertainment offerings in the browser due to the lack of Flash (see new Amazon products launche this month).

Let's see how they are going to like Steve Jobs testimony now that he was ordered to bring his ass to court.

Apple’s Jobs Must Answer Questions in ITunes Antitrust Suit.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...er-questions-in-itunes-antitrust-dispute.html

It will probably look like this:

Bill Gates - Deposition (partial)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHQxr2uOoKY

It is for the same reason Apple banned Flash, to protect iTunes monopoly and use Apple dominance to maintain iTunes and AppStore dominance, this is the actual initial case all the way back 6 years ago with all filling history all the way to current day, Apple ran that scam for years, there was the Real episode, there was the Flash episode and now it is court time:
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/5:2005cv00037/26768/

Adobe was smarter and did not sue, they just got FTC and EU involved to force Apple to open to other development platform for iOS and they won, this month is the first time this has ever been possible:

Comb Over Charlie - an AIR 2.6 multiscreen game
AIR 2.6 game running on numerous Android and iOS devices.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rp7UNCWbyc

 

[D4F]

It's so easy to tell who actually used flash on their mobiles just by reading some of the worlds dumbest replies ever right here in this thread.

I have HTC Desire with 2.2 and latest flash (also iP4 in before some dumb troll decides to ask question of the day). No extra battery drain, no choppy performance and no issues what so ever. 100% pure internet right at my fingertips wherever I go.

Get hardware that can support it, learn to maintain it and stop posting crap. You are just making idiots out of yourselves.

 

[dejo]

100% pure internet right at my fingertips wherever I go.

Does it run Silverlight and Active-X as well?

 

[jebbe]

It's so easy to tell who actually used flash on their mobiles just by reading some of the worlds dumbest replies ever right here in this thread.

I have HTC Desire with 2.2 and latest flash (also iP4 in before some dumb troll decides to ask question of the day). No extra battery drain, no choppy performance and no issues what so ever. 100% pure internet right at my fingertips wherever I go.

Get hardware that can support it, learn to maintain it and stop posting crap. You are just making idiots out of yourselves.

Can it handle mouse input and mouse tracking?

 

[CA, USA]

plz let us use flash!

we want it

 

[Tech198]

I just saw Flash running on a Droid X. Very impressive! I think it's time for Apple and Adobe to kiss and make up.

Yep. Bad Apple.

I don't think I ever got a response to my posting 'on the other side', but why no Flash, from a technical standpoint that is. Is it because IPhone is sandboxes, and maybe Android is not?

I mean, I know Apples and Adobe's story, but neither has said "why" it can't be done. Both make good arguments, but I mean is that the best Apple can do? All mobile devices will drain battery quicker with Flash, but guess what.... Flash has still made it to those devices. Even Mac laptops can have flash for safari, so why not for iPhone? All Apple has to do is build API's Adobe can hook.

 

[Arelunde]

When I had BlackBerries, Flash was promised with OS6. Got tired of waiting, went to Android. Flash worked flawlessly, with no side issues. Smooth net experience.

Then moved to (& love) iPhone4. Surprised Flash isn't even an option. No matter how one feels about Adobe/Flash, it IS being widely used on the Internet. Many depend on web sites using Flash. Without it, iOS products are handicapped compared to the competition. Why is Apple trying to force the entire Internet to change to its way of doing things? This doesn't make sense.

 

[Tech198]

...

I reckon what it comes down is is. "if you want a flash-look-a-like on the iPhone, like HTML5, rewrite your code"

Personally, most web developers would't do this just for the sake of being compatible with IOS. There are many other devices, wider usage industry platforms out there, One phone isn't gonna make a difference to justify recoding.

Looks like if a loosing battle.

 

[Geckotek]

Personally, most web developers would't do this just for the sake of being compatible with IOS.

So why are Facebook, YouTube, and Pandora switching to HTML5 and dumping flash? Why, when I ask my web designer buddy if he would rather use a combination of HTML4 and Flash to create a website or just HTML5 did he respond "HTLM5"?

Why are iOS devices still far outnumbering Android devices? And this is projected to be the case until at least 2014 despite a limited number of models being offered?

Looks like if a loosing battle.

Looks like you've misjudged how this battle is going.

 

[mfr1340]

no flash! OK

keep it clean and simple!

 

[LeakedDave]

I would like to see Flash. But not now. Hell, not for a year or 2.

Why?

Apple needs to push HTML5. Two years from now, with the HUGE iPad growth and whatnot, websites everywhere will have to drop flash for HTML5, which is GREAT!

BUT....

Ever notice.... How much Flash content already exists? If all the flash content in the world is thrown away, it's like burning down libraries. I'm a HUGE fan of Newgrounds, and pretty much everything there is flash (and won't be turned to HTML5 as it's user submitted content that is well, no longer maintained possibly).

So my theory is this: Apple waits. Up to date websites convert to HTML5. Out of date websites (pure flash content that will never be updated) stays around. Few years, Apple supports flash again. Boom, we get HTML5 everywhere and Flash fallback for flash animations and other things that otherwise would never be possible.

Either this or an HTML5 interpreter for Flash.

 

[BaldiMac]

Yep. Bad Apple.

I don't think I ever got a response to my posting 'on the other side', but why no Flash, from a technical standpoint that is. Is it because IPhone is sandboxes, and maybe Android is not?

I mean, I know Apples and Adobe's story, but neither has said "why" it can't be done. Both make good arguments, but I mean is that the best Apple can do? All mobile devices will drain battery quicker with Flash, but guess what.... Flash has still made it to those devices. Even Mac laptops can have flash for safari, so why not for iPhone? All Apple has to do is build API's Adobe can hook.

It's not that Apple can't allow Flash. It's that they choose not to.

Why is Apple trying to force the entire Internet to change to its way of doing things? This doesn't make sense.

Because they think believe Flash is bad for the internet, especially on mobile devices. And they aren't trying to promote Apple's way of doing things. They are trying to promote the W3C's way of doing things.

I reckon what it comes down is is. "if you want a flash-look-a-like on the iPhone, like HTML5, rewrite your code"

Personally, most web developers would't do this just for the sake of being compatible with IOS. There are many other devices, wider usage industry platforms out there, One phone isn't gonna make a difference to justify recoding.

Looks like if a loosing battle.

Yeah. Who would possibly care about 300 million iOS devices and probably the same number of Android/WP7/etc. devices without Flash by the end of 2011?

 

[Geckotek]

Ever notice.... How much Flash content already exists? If all the flash content in the world is thrown away, it's like burning down libraries. I'm a HUGE fan of Newgrounds, and pretty much everything there is flash (and won't be turned to HTML5 as it's user submitted content that is well, no longer maintained possibly).

I'm fairly certain this content can be converted to H.264 format despite the fact that it's user submitted. Not sure why being user submitted makes a difference.

 

[shandyman]

So why are Facebook, YouTube, and Pandora switching to HTML5 and dumping flash? Why, when I ask my web designer buddy if he would rather use a combination of HTML4 and Flash to create a website or just HTML5 did he respond "HTLM5"?

exactly, my web designer friend who works for a big place in london said all the sites he's been designing in the last 6 months are all HTML5, no flash

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm fairly certain this content can be converted to H.264 format despite the fact that it's user submitted. Not sure why being user submitted makes a difference.

Ummm... Newgrounds is a Flash gaming site. Games can't be converted to h.264.

 

[err404]

I mean, I know Apples and Adobe's story, but neither has said "why" it can't be done.

It was a tactical decision made by Apple over a year ago (before the iPad1 or iPhone4). The state of Mobile Flash was utterly terrible, along with hardware being much weaker. Flash was also a mess on OS X and was the biggest security risk on the web. In the end Apple lost confidence in Flash and saw it's inclusions in iOS as something that would diminish the user experience through worse battery life, performance, stability and security. It was the right choice at the time and only recently have things changed.

Since then two things have happened: Adobe has made frankly incredible progress on Flash while at the same time many site have embraced HTML5.
While some of Apple's original concern have been corrected (Flash still crashes my Android browser more then anything else), there is somewhat less pressure to include Flash today. Many site have already implemented alternatives through dedicated Apps or HTML5 versions.

Now it may be an issue of 'the ship as already sailed'. Apple set a course with a clear mission statement of W3C compliance. It has been extremely successfully for them and I doubt that they will change their stance in the near future.

(As a side note, Apple doesn't seem to like including third party dependencies. Apple might be more willing to incorporate support if they built the plugin...)

 

[MassiveAttack]

I think it's time for Steve Jobs to take his head out of his Arse and make up with Adobe.