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Honestly, do you guys think the Blackberry Bold is 3G iPhone competition?
- Thread starter newyorksole
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I've no idea because I don't know enough about the workings of a BB to comment. What I do know is that:
a) Both the iPhone v2.0 and Bold have precisley zero working apps for them just now.
b) Both RIM and Apple have invested (with others) heavily in developer start up funds.
c) Business preference is still going to be decided on cost, not bells and whistles.
The BB SDK doesn't have to be able to produce everything the Apple SDK can because most of the new apps aren't going to be business relevant or fill a gap that hasn't already been filled anyway.
If it ever shows up, I'll take a look at it, but I'm not sold on the $10 more per month than my iPhone, for the Data Plan!
As for "competitor" I always say:
"The only threat to the Apple iPhone is the Apple iPhone itself! (Sort of a take on Carl Von Clausewitz). If V2 doesn't live up to all the hype and rumors, then everyone sitting on the fence will end up searching elsewhere and the current iPhone owners will just resume life without upgrading."
And from the looks of it, you'll probably shell-out at least $650 plus tax for a RIM product and another runner-up, to go along with that $30 (or more) a month data plan.
As for "competitor" I always say:
"The only threat to the Apple iPhone is the Apple iPhone itself! (Sort of a take on Carl Von Clausewitz). If V2 doesn't live up to all the hype and rumors, then everyone sitting on the fence will end up searching elsewhere and the current iPhone owners will just resume life without upgrading."
And from the looks of it, you'll probably shell-out at least $650 plus tax for a RIM product and another runner-up, to go along with that $30 (or more) a month data plan.
RIMS days are numbered. The Bold and The supposed "Thunder" announcement are desperate acts form a company which has been sitting on its laurels and not done much in the last few years and suddenly woken up to the fact that its niche is under serious threat. They must have been catatonic after the SDK was released and talk or push email, Exchange server support. Hey guys this is what we do plus they will sell 1000's of useful apps conveniently .
Their Bold 3G is delayed several months and the supposed Thunder will launch at the same time as iphone 2.0. Yes right. We believe you.
Anyone can say they have an iphone killer. Talk is cheap. They are trying to say "guys don't buy iphone, please, please, ours is better, honestly. Their stock price fell as everyone realises apple will have at least 4 months by itself selling a 3G high end phone by itself.
This so called "Enterprise" thing is a big myth, OK it starts off as genuine but soon the consumer end innovates faster and starts to perform better than the supposed " Enterprise" products.
Look at companies like Sun. They were in "Enterprise" all black suits and serious. You go and play in the park kids, we will stay inside and get the job done selling "Workstations" to businesses.
Where are they now. OK they're still around and wrote Java but they aren't exactly setting the world on fire now.
The "Workstation" is another example who's time came and has gone. Your average PC can do all that a "Workstation" can do and more.
IBM. No company ever went broke specifying IBM was their big line they sold to the purchasing department and accountants.
Companies often enter this "Enterprise" niche and get trapped there as its often resistant to change (all these boring accountant types lock in costs and can't be bothered to look for anything new) until a sudden innovation. like iphone, blows that niche apart.
Apple were even guilty of it when they perpetuated a myth that only apple machines were good for graphic design. It may have been true but they were still saying that long after it was really true, when the average PC (sorry) could do more at a lower cost. If it wasn't for ipod where would apple be now? They saw the writing was on the wall trying to sell macs as the standard for graphic designers and luckily for them got into music players which led to phones..
I can't see RIM surviving , well they may linger on but have lost their monopoly now as its not just apple at them, everyone is.
Their Bold 3G is delayed several months and the supposed Thunder will launch at the same time as iphone 2.0. Yes right. We believe you.
Anyone can say they have an iphone killer. Talk is cheap. They are trying to say "guys don't buy iphone, please, please, ours is better, honestly. Their stock price fell as everyone realises apple will have at least 4 months by itself selling a 3G high end phone by itself.
This so called "Enterprise" thing is a big myth, OK it starts off as genuine but soon the consumer end innovates faster and starts to perform better than the supposed " Enterprise" products.
Look at companies like Sun. They were in "Enterprise" all black suits and serious. You go and play in the park kids, we will stay inside and get the job done selling "Workstations" to businesses.
Where are they now. OK they're still around and wrote Java but they aren't exactly setting the world on fire now.
The "Workstation" is another example who's time came and has gone. Your average PC can do all that a "Workstation" can do and more.
IBM. No company ever went broke specifying IBM was their big line they sold to the purchasing department and accountants.
Companies often enter this "Enterprise" niche and get trapped there as its often resistant to change (all these boring accountant types lock in costs and can't be bothered to look for anything new) until a sudden innovation. like iphone, blows that niche apart.
Apple were even guilty of it when they perpetuated a myth that only apple machines were good for graphic design. It may have been true but they were still saying that long after it was really true, when the average PC (sorry) could do more at a lower cost. If it wasn't for ipod where would apple be now? They saw the writing was on the wall trying to sell macs as the standard for graphic designers and luckily for them got into music players which led to phones..
I can't see RIM surviving , well they may linger on but have lost their monopoly now as its not just apple at them, everyone is.
You could not be anymore naive as an Apple fanboy. What exactly do you call the Pearl, Curve and 88xx from the past few years? record profits? even with the iPhone being released? you cant be that blind to see that this is a company on the rise, and they are not attacking the iPhone have you heard of the Kickstart? RIM is entering into more of a consumer market. Apple has been so far behind in releasing 3G its unbelieveable, and cry me a river on that battery crap, and it lacks so many basic features i wont even start to name. Enterprise isnt it myth nor have i seen it on a consumer device so i dont see it as a 'regular' feature. If iPhone was such a smartphone it would have enterprise from the get go as so many others do.
Now i have to defend Apple. So many industry standard applications for graphic designers are mainly Mac only so that isnt a myth. Mac sales are at its highest and increasing much faster than iPod sales have been recently. Macbooks are selling extremely well. Apple would be an even greater computer company without iPod because they would have more resources to put into the fast growing Mac products.
RIM and Apple are both moving forward and the BB wont loose there foothold over corporate users without a fight.
You are so far off the mark it's embarrassing. I suggest you look at RIM's subscription growth rate and composition.
Posts like yours just make me cringe. They really do.
Likewise, anyone can say they have a Blackberry killer
Enterprise executives and accountants are trumped these days by their IT Security department. And if the latter is comfortable only with RIM, then that's the way it is. You can fight all you want for different handhelds, but good luck.
Let's break it down:
Why are they leaders?
RIM
(primarily enterprise ) consumer satisfaction pegged at 54%. Apple at 79% (25% higher).
What did Blackberry users like most? Email, (56 % of users noting it as the feature they liked the best). No other feature comes even close in terms of popularity
iPhone users - multiple features of the device, seamless integration of a Phone, iPod and internet browser is the leading feature (36%), touch screen interface (27%), ease of use (16%), Safari (5%).
iPhone with OS 2.0 will get enterprise level push email. And a hell of a lot more. RIM doesn't have iTunes, and is playing catchup with touch screen hardware and software.
As noted, they both have a "super-loyal cadre of users that fervently support their phone brand - and each has extraordinary room to grow."
It depends on which analysis/analyst you read. Others have seen RIM as complacent, lazy, and only market leaders due to lack of competition.
E.g. here
RIM's latest quarter (from December 07) , 34% of its devices were sold to consumers (1.3 million units). Apple sold 1.1 million iPhones in the comparable period. Were the markets sizes for each comparable?
As the article points out, the smartphone market has been growing in triple digits. year over year. And smart-phones amount to <20% of the overall U.S. handset market. So what with U.S. catching up with 3G tech, there is growth potential in pure numbers for both, irrespective of percentage market share.
That sentiment is also heard here on Seeking alpha.
The big problem? SDK and apps. Apple is about to open a 24 pack of whupderriere on RIM.
as noted here
"In light of the Apple development kit, RIM's development environment is "comparatively primitive" and will likely result in nothing more than essential "meat and potatoes" apps for the BlackBerry, Wolf says." (Wolf = Needham & Co. investor group analyst).
Both can grow into each others markets (consumer and business).
RIM is coming out with several new launches. If Apple can convert consumer purchases of iPhones into devices that are also compatible with their work -
wow That'll be a kick in the nads for RIM.
It'd be interesting to see the numbers on usage of Blackberrys and iPhones - do the majority of users have 1 blackberry and a personal phone? Would enterprise users want both still even if they got a new iPhone or Crackberry?
Would they be happy with both?
Till then, we get push email, seemingly simpler Exchange server support (fantastic for smaller start up businesses I imagine), and a shed load of VC money into apps on both sides. (RIM might be 1UPed very shortly on the actual VC values...)
The problem? 3G iPhone is going to be out 1st. The reviews from the enterprises using iPhone were pretty stunning. Simplicity to use, amazing devices etc etc.
Enterprise is niche in comparison with consumer phones.
We all await the cat fight that will occur. But Apple already has the better looking phone I imagine, the better games player, the better music phone, and the better apps phone. I imagine Apple will have some b0000mtastic Enterprise apps too - Salesforce apps, and more.
Why are they leaders?
RIM
(primarily enterprise ) consumer satisfaction pegged at 54%. Apple at 79% (25% higher).
What did Blackberry users like most? Email, (56 % of users noting it as the feature they liked the best). No other feature comes even close in terms of popularity
iPhone users - multiple features of the device, seamless integration of a Phone, iPod and internet browser is the leading feature (36%), touch screen interface (27%), ease of use (16%), Safari (5%).
iPhone with OS 2.0 will get enterprise level push email. And a hell of a lot more. RIM doesn't have iTunes, and is playing catchup with touch screen hardware and software.
As noted, they both have a "super-loyal cadre of users that fervently support their phone brand - and each has extraordinary room to grow."
It depends on which analysis/analyst you read. Others have seen RIM as complacent, lazy, and only market leaders due to lack of competition.
E.g. here
RIM's latest quarter (from December 07) , 34% of its devices were sold to consumers (1.3 million units). Apple sold 1.1 million iPhones in the comparable period. Were the markets sizes for each comparable?
As the article points out, the smartphone market has been growing in triple digits. year over year. And smart-phones amount to <20% of the overall U.S. handset market. So what with U.S. catching up with 3G tech, there is growth potential in pure numbers for both, irrespective of percentage market share.
That sentiment is also heard here on Seeking alpha.
The big problem? SDK and apps. Apple is about to open a 24 pack of whupderriere on RIM.
as noted here
"In light of the Apple development kit, RIM's development environment is "comparatively primitive" and will likely result in nothing more than essential "meat and potatoes" apps for the BlackBerry, Wolf says." (Wolf = Needham & Co. investor group analyst).
Both can grow into each others markets (consumer and business).
RIM is coming out with several new launches. If Apple can convert consumer purchases of iPhones into devices that are also compatible with their work -
wow
That'll be a kick in the nads for RIM. It'd be interesting to see the numbers on usage of Blackberrys and iPhones - do the majority of users have 1 blackberry and a personal phone? Would enterprise users want both still even if they got a new iPhone or Crackberry?
Would they be happy with both?
Till then, we get push email, seemingly simpler Exchange server support (fantastic for smaller start up businesses I imagine), and a shed load of VC money into apps on both sides. (RIM might be 1UPed very shortly on the actual VC values...)
The problem? 3G iPhone is going to be out 1st. The reviews from the enterprises using iPhone were pretty stunning. Simplicity to use, amazing devices etc etc.
Enterprise is niche in comparison with consumer phones.
We all await the cat fight that will occur. But Apple already has the better looking phone I imagine, the better games player, the better music phone, and the better apps phone. I imagine Apple will have some b0000mtastic Enterprise apps too - Salesforce apps, and more.
The apps are speculation until we see what is actually produced. The iPhone 2.0 will sell more in the consumer market, the BB more in the corporate.
Exactly, if email is a MUST for you then the BB is a very good catch, but for a user like myself who needs texting I'll be good with my iPhone. Just ordered a 8GB refurb for $250 today
BongoBanger said:
Apps that we can get access to = 0
Working apps we can't yet access is >0
Is business preference going to be decided on cost, not bells and whistles?
Just like execs that go Business class rather than coach. I'm sure there are other examples of the cost & benefit being taken into account. Otherwise it's penny wise pound foolish.
Apps are speculation. We already know some are being developed to be out come the App Store launch , as we saw from the SDK presentation. We know they wouldn't be launching an empty store...
most of the apps might not be business relevant. What matters is the quality, and the range. Seeing as Apple is heading squarely into Enterprise, it'd be a fairly safe bet to say there will be several.
Even if they aren't filling gaps in the market, with the Apple's tech, they could do better than apps on the RIM devices...
Edit: If email is the best thing - wouldn't a bigger screen be useful? I know the keyboard, the keyboard, but that argument can't be used for touch screen only Blackberrys..(or an iPhone that could work with a BT keyboard to a lesser extent)
Touchy, must have touched a nerve?
I stand by what I said. I give Blackberry a few years. Its not just apple who can do what they do but all the major players.
The only way out is for them to innovate and do something radical.
Apple would have gone under too and the old chestnut about being a fan boy! To try and say Iv'e got no credible argument because I'm blinded by the light of Steve.
Work for Blackberry?? You Blackberry fan Boy you.
I also said this
I stand by what I said. I give Blackberry a few years. Its not just apple who can do what they do but all the major players.
The only way out is for them to innovate and do something radical.
Apple would have gone under too and the old chestnut about being a fan boy! To try and say Iv'e got no credible argument because I'm blinded by the light of Steve.
Work for Blackberry?? You Blackberry fan Boy you.
I also said this
While its true other companoes can do what Apple do in a few years, thats what makes Apple so special, they are years ahead of the competition, and by then Apple would be doing somthing better anyway.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/05/21/heres-how-apple-wins-the-enterprise.aspx I believe
Fair? Commoditization if you will.
No, I meant it's not just apple who can do what BLACKBERRY can do its some other companies. I was being accused of being an apple fan boy, which is the standard retort for anyone who doesn't think you are being objective.
I happen to think Blackberry are history.
I agree that is what makes apple special. They innovate out of trouble and create new markets.
I happen to think Blackberry are history.
I agree that is what makes apple special. They innovate out of trouble and create new markets.
I am not sure if BlackBerry are history, they do have a large share in the buisness smartphone market.
This is for Blackberry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz3kdbtSj3M
Especially when there is not just iphone 2.0 3G but also the PDA thingy, to really make things difficult..
People are use to the bigger width of the Blackberry so this makes the perfect size for the apple PDA. It won't surprise anyone or be considered too big.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz3kdbtSj3M
Especially when there is not just iphone 2.0 3G but also the PDA thingy, to really make things difficult..
People are use to the bigger width of the Blackberry so this makes the perfect size for the apple PDA. It won't surprise anyone or be considered too big.
Video comparison of preproduction Bold and iPhone, by an iPhone person:
iPhone vs. Bold
That's pretty nice of RIM to give out preproduction models.
One comment: I just don't get why people see chrome edges (which have been on phones for years) and say "Gosh they look alike". Probably can't tell his kids apart, either
iPhone vs. Bold
That's pretty nice of RIM to give out preproduction models.
One comment: I just don't get why people see chrome edges (which have been on phones for years) and say "Gosh they look alike". Probably can't tell his kids apart, either
Which may also be the case for RIM. It's the first figure that counts.
But what additional benefits? That's the point.
RIM won't either. I was actually wrong about there being no working apps for BB. Looks like Apple are already behind here.
http://na.blackberry.com/eng/builtforblackberry/
Which it seems RIM are already ahead in and investign to improve their proposition.
'Could'? Then again 'could not' also applies doesn't it?
So, LiveForever, when do you think BlackBerry will be history then? How long will that take?
It would be cool if RIM fails and my Mum's company equips her with a iPhone, instead!
Well, actually, RIM are one of their clients (they are a law firm) so I am guessing who ever profits from the clients wont be celebrating so much!
It would be cool if RIM fails and my Mum's company equips her with a iPhone, instead!
Well, actually, RIM are one of their clients (they are a law firm) so I am guessing who ever profits from the clients wont be celebrating so much!
Last quarter RIM gets record profits even with the iphone on the market, you say they are history. Fact vs opinion.
And if i'm a fanboy of anything i think its Apple not RIM.