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One of the first management features missing from the iPhone that comes to mind is financial companies legal requirement to audit all SMS and instant messenger conversations (a result of insider trading). How do you do that on an iPhone?

I don't believe this is a feature that will hold them back in a significant way. Companies such as Franklin Templeton, etc will surely require this feature, but I don't think you're going to see a lot of loss here.

This is information is already collected by AT&T as an example, for billing purposes. The long bill shows every SMS message sent already. If Apple really wanted to resolve this specific issue, it would only need to interface with AT&T to do so. But again, I doubt this is a significant enough feature to hold them back from a large number of enterprise clients. And to further qualify my own statement, I said I see the lack of a good interface as being a more important factor in RIM losing clients than what I was estimating you'd respond with as the counter-balance to Apple losing Enterprise clients. Put another way, UI will gain Apple more clients than the lack of SMS reports will lose them in the enterprise.

I've also seen other large companies issue BlackBerrys with the phone feature disabled. Wireless PDAs, in essence. How do you do that on an iPhone?

Apple is working on enforced policy if I understand the March 6th event. No doubt some companies will not want their employees using some default app. I believe you'll see this as part of the 2.0 release. Or they could just buy them an iPod Touch. No phone in that. Essentially a PDA with an iPod. lol

How do you disable bluetooth features on an iPhone that would allow an employee soon to leave the company from syncing the address book to his personal computer?

How do you enforce that all emails leaving the iPhone are encrypted?

How does a company enforce a mandatory password policy on an iPhone?

All of these are again part of policy management. If you watch the March 6th event, they specifically state, Enforced Security Policies", and "Device Configuration" are part of the 2.0 release. So I believe all of these issues are in fact addressed in 2.0 to be released in about 3 weeks.

So again, do you honestly think RIM has less to lose than Apple in the enterprise?

Best,

Alex
 
So again, do you honestly think RIM has less to lose than Apple in the enterprise?
I think that if Apple can offer a device that equals RIMs on manageability before RIM offers a device with a more iPhone-like UI, Apple can take away some of RIMs Exchange marketshare (like they have done with Microsoft's Window's OS marketshare).

The point I was making (to megfilmworks) is that Apple is playing catch up just as hard as RIM is.
 
not true, people buy big TVs to watch a big nice TV. They could get a small computer screen with the same resolution, but it wouldn't be nearly as nice of an experience to watch a movie as it would be to watch on a 60 inch television.

Yeah.. I have my MacBook Pro 17" High Res sitting on stilts next to my 24" monitor. Both are in 1920x1200. I can promise you I don't enjoy looking at the 17" macbook screen more than the 24" monitor.
 
I think that if Apple can offer a device that equals RIMs on manageability before RIM offers a device with a more iPhone-like UI, Apple can take away some of RIMs Exchange marketshare (like they have done with Microsoft's Window's OS marketshare).

The point I was making (to megfilmworks) is that Apple is playing catch up just as hard as RIM is.

Okay that's where we differ. I think Apple after the 2.0 release could stand still and still blow past RIM. I don't think Apple has to match RIM in management the way RIM needs to match Apple in UI. Apple's 2.0 will be good enough for enough Enterprises to start taking marketshare from RIM right away.

In addition, RIM has absolutely zero hope of matching Apple's UI or eco system for content.

Best,

Alex
 
For me the kicker is the soft keyboard on the iPhone. While I don't have an iPhone I do have an iPod touch so I have some experience with the soft keyboard and I will suffer Windows Mobile if it means that I get an actual hard keyboard. The second Apple puts out a phone with a hard keyboard I'll be all over it. Til then I'm sooooo diggin' this new blackberry.


Yeah well you better adapt... Hard keyboards are going to be gone in a few years. They are a dinosaur and make zero sense on a small mobile device.
 
Yeah well you better adapt... Hard keyboards are going to be gone in a few years. They are a dinosaur and make zero sense on a small mobile device.

I said some pretty bad things about the iPhone and the screen based keyboard as a long-time BlackBerry user. I even tried an iPhone 3 times before switching to one. If you cruise blackberryforums you could find some comments by me saying how much I love the blackberry keyboard. Quite obviously I am on an iPhone now. The reason is that the keyboard is easily as good, if not better. It took my 15 minutes to get up to speed on this keyboard and honestly, I'm glad I gave it another shot because the ability to get rid of the keyboard and use the whole screen is great. The ability to use a standard 10 key dial pad when dialing numbers, which consumes the whole screen, rather than looking for little numerics and the tiny * and # on the BB was insanity.

You want the screen to be any keyboard the software needs when it needs it. It's so much better than a standard keyboard being utilized in a one size fits all approach. So I am with the previous poster. Standard keyboards are dead to me. After getting used to a touch screen keyboard I'd never go back.

Alex
 
Words usually do fail you. Thanks for another good laugh.

Touche.

Now explain why RIM are playing catch up. Please feel free to refer to user base, input preferences as shown by market research, embedded costs and device cost.

Go on. I'm waiting.
 
Touche.

Now explain why RIM are playing catch up. Please feel free to refer to user base, input preferences as shown by market research, embedded costs and device cost.

Go on. I'm waiting.

UI, loss of market share to Apple, bad overall design,
Street and public perception.
RIM is the old dinosaur that is being overwhelmed by the superior
R&D of Apple.
RIM=RIP :D
 
^^ And Apple's massively superior API, I don't know how it compares to RIM's but its certainly a vast improvement over Windows Mobile's API.
 
Yeah well you better adapt... Hard keyboards are going to be gone in a few years. They are a dinosaur and make zero sense on a small mobile device.

Keyboards are fairly new for consumer handhelds. (Industrial devices are larger and sometimes far better equipped.)

For many years, PDAs came with just on-screen keyboards. But people were tired of using up screen real estate and needing a stylus.

At first, large tethered keyboards were the rage. Then tiny keyboards in a slip-on case that fit on the bottom. Finally, built-in keyboards arrived.

An iPhone-style onscreen keyboard solves the stylus problem, but the loss of screen real estate is still a major factor, along with the lesser need to type without looking for some people.

^^ And Apple's massively superior API, I don't know how it compares to RIM's but its certainly a vast improvement over Windows Mobile's API.

Please explain.
 
An iPhone-style onscreen keyboard solves the stylus problem, but the loss of screen real estate is still a major factor, along with the lesser need to type without looking for some people.

I don't understand how people can say the iPhone keyboard takes up screen real estate, and the built-in keyboard does not. In my opinion, having a soft keyboard that takes up a third of the screen when you need it and goes away when you don't is a far better use of the screen than making the thing tiny ALL the time. And I know the Bold has the same resolution as the iPhone, but in this case, size matters.
 
^^ And Apple's massively superior API, I don't know how it compares to RIM's but its certainly a vast improvement over Windows Mobile's API.

RIMs UI is basically a lot like Palm's UI except it required the use of a scroll wheel which doubles as a button. This was up to about 2 years ago. The concept is that you can totally operate the device with a single hand. As you scroll the wheel up and down, you change the selected icon on the screen. Press that scrolling wheel inward, and you execute that icon.

The BlackBerry also makes use of 4 other buttons. Key among them are an option button and a home button. The Home button is the same as Apple's Home button. It merely takes you back to the beginning. The Option button is where RIMs UI shows it's age. Once you select an application, such as email, and you decide you wish to compose an email, you use the Option key, or you can just press the scroll button at the top of the listed emails. In both cases, an email compose window will start. But imagine that the choices are merely a list of choices accessible in that Option key approach.

Say you are in a call, and another call comes through. You'd have to press the option button to see a list of choices in how to deal with that incoming call. Say you are in a ToDo Matrix, and you want to enter a new ToDo action item. You scroll to the ToDo icon, and press in the wheel. You are in the app now. Press the Option button and get a list of choices, one of which is to create a new item. Or you could use the scroll wheel to scroll to the bucket container of organized data and click on one of those items, which is again a shortcut to enter data for that item.

Basically, you live in a world where you scroll to select, press to execute, and hit option for choices. Always those three things. And Home to go back to the beginning.

In the days when no better design had been thought of, this was considered perfect. Or at least the best interface out there. But Apple has changed that. Apple's concept of the choices being married to the applications showing interface is a faster method to achieve the very same thing. But because the choices are simply there in front of you based on where you are and what you are doing, it makes using the application not only easier, but also faster.

As I said in a prior in email. I'm not someone talking about the BlackBerry out of ignorance. I have own a BlackBerry text pager, which is what they first started doing when they first starting building hardware. I later bought a BlackBerry fortified with Yahoo, which was their PDA before they married a phone to the PDA. And after they married the phone to the PDA, I had an Exchange Email Server with BlackBerry Enterprise Services and a BlackBerry 8800 first, then later a BlackBerry 8310. I'm a member of the BlackBerry forums, and I have said many very nice things about 3rd party software such as ToDoMatrix, DataVault, LexSpell, JiveTalk, and IM+ and many many more. I know the BlackBerry very well. So it's easy for me to talk about its strengths and lack thereof. What gets me are those BlackBerry users who barely try the iPhone and feel qualified to speak about it.

But this poster running around here saying BlackBerry apps are already out and therefor more real then yet to be released apps on the iPhone needs to seriously re-consider that lame position. There are already thousands of iPhone applications running on JailBroken iPhones right now. And they are far better than anything on the BlackBerry. Version 2.0 of the software is merely Apple legitimizing the platform by governing software. And the software is real. BlackBerry has NOTHING like what we saw from SalesForce.com. NOTHING!! I am simply blown away by BlackBerry owner's ability to dig little holes and hide their heads within them. They are acting like silly dumb animals that believe if they can't see it, it isn't really there. That's so beneath you guys.

The software for the iPhone is real. Deal with it. And it easily out-classes RIM in every way. It's not even an argument because you guys don't have an argument. You don't have the platform bold enough to argue this point. It's like telling me Palm's Treo is more powerful than a small laptop. It isn't. The two devices are in two different classes. The Iphone is next generation hardware and software. To suppose the BlackBerry is as powerful or more powerful is a ridiculous joke of a statement.

I'm reminded of Audible's comments on the BlackBerry forum when asked by me and others when we would get a good audible client. Audible basically said the RIM wasn't fast enough to handle Audible's client and it's been a challenge to get it working well on the platform. It's been in beta forever.

The music player, the video player, etc all outline how crude and lackluster the platform is. Oh but you BlackBerry uses will respond with silly comments like, it's a business tool, it's not meant to do that. Well, let me inform you gents. It's not a question of "meant". It's a question of "capability". Whether it was meant to do it or not, it's choking its guts out trying to do simple things like be a good media player. The interface for just playing simple MP3s is awful. And please, if you are going to tell me that Flipside is awesome, then you are clueless. Flipside is a lame application with seriously 1/100th of the feature-set of an iPod or the iPod app in the iPhone. It clearly shows the differences in classes between the iPhone and the BalckBerry. Quite frankly, pTunes on the Treo blows away any music app on the BlackBerry.

The best software on the BlackBerry is easily RexWireless's ToDo Matrix. It's pretty much the sole reason for debate that the platform has good software. Ascendo's DataVault is another good app. JiveTalk is a good app. WorldMate Live is a very good app for travelers. I was once stuck in 115 degree heat in Las Vegas when the airport itself lost all power. And it was WorldMate that I used to find my departing gate and time, and it got me the heck out of that misery. It's not a question of good software. BlackBerry has excellent software. It has great services, and it's reliable. But it's not in the same generation of hardware / software as the iPhone. It doesn't have a foundation as rich in capability as the iPhone. It's truly that simple. Apple sat down, and simply designed better, faster, easier to use hardware and software designed to do one thing. Beat RIM, Windows Mobile, and Palm in terms of hardware and software design and capability. And with an army of 200,000 developers they have in fact waged war. In a matter of mere months they are already the #2 player in smart phones.

So I ask, what planet are you guys on? One in three fortune 500 companies are testing the iPhone in their enterprise. Where is that rather nice dent of customers going to be taken from? Apple was never there. So it has to come from RIM, Palm, and Microsoft. RIM is the largest, so it makes sense they will take the largest hit. How is this even debatable?

Now if you RIM guys want to put your reputations where your mouths are, please stick around here for just one little year. Because I'll bet you in one year from today or less, RIM will be #2 and Apple will be #1.

Why? You had to see that March 6th event to understand. The quality of the software is so much better on the iPhone, that's it's simply an unfair race in my opinion. It's not even a question in my mind as to who will be on top. It's merely a matter of "When".

All I want to know is how many of you BlackBerry guys will be willing to come back here and tell me you were wrong. Wrong about the platform, wrong about the keyboard, and wrong and RIM's ability to create a device that competes with the iPhone. BOLD is nice, but not even an iPhone 1.0 competitor. And I'll bet you Thunder, if ever released is also not worthy of even the iPhone 1.0, let alone 2.0. And further more, I'd be willing to bet you right here and now that the Thunder is nothing but the same exact lame OS where the scroll wheel / track ball is removed, the keyboard is removed, and both are substituted for the touch screen. To be absolutely clear, all the brainiacs at RIM will do is replace the trackball with the touch screen and leave the concept of Options, Home, intact which defeats the purpose of the one-handed UI the option and home key makes sense for in the RIM UI. And "When" they do that, you will see the proof of what I am saying right now. That RIM is clueless. They see the iPhone and think that all it is, is a touch screen device. That's shallow and stupid non-thinking. If they can't honestly see that's it much more than that, then you guys are about to have some serious marketshare losses.

Alex Alexzander
 
Please explain.

I'm curious, too.

The API is the software supplied by the manufacturer of the operating system (or a third party) for making software. This generally includes things like accessing the computer hardware and displaying stuff on the screen. Apple's is called Cocoa (and they also have an old one called Carbon), Microsoft has two called Win32 and .NET.

The problem with Win32 is due to Microsoft's obsession with backwards compatibility it has the same flaws as it did when Windows first came out. And at this time Apple's API (called the Macintosh toolbox) was considerably better than it, but due to Microsoft's dominance this became irrelevant (EDIT 4: Microsoft's dominance was almost entirely down to getting DOS to be used by IBM, as they were the industry heavyweight and everyone else was a start-up its unsurprising which platform they bought) . Of course since then the Macintosh toolbox was improved to become Carbon, and then of course Cocoa is better than that.

Unfortunately for Microsoft their newer API .NET is barely better than Win32 and is still massively inferior to Cocoa for actually writing applications, due to its inconsistencies of which there are many. One of the other problems with .NET is that it is entirely designed for writing business software so that anyone who wants to write interesting software finds themselves running up against it, and usually they seem to end up writing programs for the Mac instead. (EDIT 3: these are the "third group" of developers as described here)

In fact Microsoft's frameworks are so bad that when a comparison was done on Arstechnica over the number of quality applications released for Mac and Windows over the past year the Mac won by a considerable margin. Of course on Windows itself their is a lot of existing software so this is less of an issue than it seems so their are quite a few niche areas where Windows software is still better.

However on the mobile phone there is far less existing software and Windows Mobile doesn't have a large market share advantage over the iPhone so it should very quickly have a superior level of software available for it, especially given many of the developers writing high quality software for the Mac will also release iPhone versions. This gives the iPhone another significant advantage over the competition.

In fact even if Microsoft has been brewing away at a new secret API in Redmond and releases it tomorrow, it will still probably be 5-10 years behind Cocoa as they'll need the public feedback to use it and improve it and to fix the issues at the bottom so they are able to bring it up to the same sort of standard.

EDIT 2: The only way around this 5-10 year delay is to take an existing OS (the only available sensible option is Linux as it is designed to run in low power situations) and build your platform on that as Google's Android is doing.

If all it takes is a good UI to steal the market from a competitor, why does OS X have less than 10% of the total OS market?

You need more than that, you need good existing software too and in lots of categories, this is something Apple has only been getting very recently. Also remember that since Windows 95 and certainly Windows XP, Windows has been "good enough" for general use.

EDIT: The API and the UI are sort of related, the UI is a crude method of seeing the problems in the API which is deeper. Many of Microsoft's problems with Vista are visible in the user interface (for example see the screenshot here).
 
I'm curious, too.

If all it takes is a good UI to steal the market from a competitor, why does OS X have less than 10% of the total OS market?

Because it takes more than just the UI. To truly dominate, it takes next generation against the old generation. Whether you like Windows or OSX better, both are close enough to be considered in the same classes. A good example of this is any large application. Take Adobe Photoshop for example. It's virtually identical on both platforms. Thus the platforms really boil down to user preference.

Now, are the applications going to be virtually identical on the BlackBerry and the iPhone? Not at all. And that's the clear distinction between to the two classes. So your shallow thinking is so easily exposed. Do you really think you are going to beat the logic and truth of my argument with careless comments such as this?

Alex Alexzander

Please explain.

Let's see you explain why RIMs UI is so much better. Two words appears all you muster.

Alex
 
Because it takes more than just the UI. To truly dominate, it takes next generation against the old generation. Whether you like Windows or OSX better, both are close enough to be considered in the same classes. A good example of this is any large application. Take Adobe Photoshop for example. It's virtually identical on both platforms. Thus the platforms really boil down to user preference.

This is true from a user perspective, but from a developer perspective it really isn't as I have described above.

Let's see you explain why RIMs UI is so much better. Two words appears all you muster.

Alex

I think he just thought my initial comment was a bit too technical and opaque (which is true) ;).
 
^^ And Apple's massively superior API, I don't know how it compares to RIM's but its certainly a vast improvement over Windows Mobile's API.

Which apps can you write on the iPhone which you cant on WM?

If fact, ignoring the API, there are plenty of apps which Apple plainly forbids on the iPhone, like VOIP over 3G. That 42 Mb/sec will be truly wasted on an iPhone, while WM users will be watching SlingBox and calling overseas using Skype.
 
Which apps can you write on the iPhone which you cant on WM?

It doesn't matter what you can do, the point is is that it is much, much easier to make applications for the iPhone.

That 42 Mb/sec will be truly wasted on an iPhone, while WM users will be watching SlingBox and calling overseas using Skype.

If the carriers will allow it, Apple can change the rules.

EDIT: The only people who can prevent Apple winning this are Apple if they really screw up, possibly Android, and maybe Symbian (as they have a 70% market share).
 
It doesn't matter what you can do, the point is is that it is much, much easier to make applications for the iPhone.

If the app is worth writing, and the market demands it, the developers will make it. Hell, iPhone owners have "thousands of apps" from people who had to actively struggle against Apple and revealed the API themselves.

If the carriers will allow it, Apple can change the rules.

Yep, but so far they have not. Those are just two small examples however. What Apple should actually do is stop trying to control the developers.

EDIT: The only people who can prevent Apple winning this are Apple if they really screw up, possibly Android, and maybe Symbian (as they have a 70% market share).

Yep, and Apple can own the computer market if they drop their profit margin by half. But they dont, do they?
 
If the app is worth writing, and the market demands it, the developers will make it.

Why don't Coda or Delicious Library have Windows versions then?

Hell, iPhone owners have "thousands of apps" from people who had to actively struggle agsint Apple and reveal the API themselves.

Thats because underneath it all it is Cocoa, which is excellent.


What Apple should actually do is stop trying to control the developers.

Apple's strategy so far will keep the platform secure and malware free, it also gives developers a distribution method unrivalled on any platform. It also makes sure the developers write applications that work within the very limited battery power of the device.

Of course they are a little strict, but it is much easier to liberalise than the other way around.

Yep, and Apple can own the computer market if they drop their profit margin by half. But they dont, do they?

Over the past 3 years their computer share has grown an average of 30% year-on-year and in the last quarter they grew 54% year-on-year, there is little they could do better on that front.
 
Why don't Coda or Delicious Library have Windows versions then?

You know, I have not even heard of those apps before. If an app is in low demand, the development cost of moving it to another platform may never be met.

As you know, the opposite situation is much more common.

Over the past 3 years their computer share has grown an average of 30% year-on-year and in the last quarter they grew 54% year-on-year, there is little they could do better on that front.

When you starting from single digit market share, actually you need to do much better.

Also, dont confuse shipment growth in a growing market with market share growth, which is clearly much lower.
 
LOL the 3G iphone is just barely getting on par with phones 2 years old

GPS, A-GPS, VGA, 3.5G Video calling have all been out for more than 3+ years

hell the HTC Universal had a VGA (640x480) Touch screen, 3G Video calling and a full sized keyboard from 2005.

right now as it currently stands, the iphone is the most crippled phone ever to be released, it does so little in terms of software functionality that the Razr V3x can slaughter it in alot of areas. the HW on the other hand is decent.

The second half of your post contradicts the first half...
 
Now if you RIM guys want to put your reputations where your mouths are, please stick around here for just one little year. Because I'll bet you in one year from today or less, RIM will be #2 and Apple will be #1.
For the record, I'm not a RIM guy.

I do work for a decently-large company (within 35 of being on the Fortune 500), and one of my job responsibilities is to maintain our small BlackBerry Enterprise Server. We have roughly 300 users, 99% of whom have Verizon BlackBerrys, and we're a Lotus Notes shop (out of legacy).

Having said that, I carry two devices with me. My work-issued BlackBerry and my personal iPhone.

I'm behind you 100% on everything you've said about the differences between the two devices from a users perspective. I personally hate using my BB for anything (other than as a tethered modem).

But when I think about the whole workflow of "managed mobile devices" (from a large business perspective), the end-user experience (as long as it's acceptable), is one of the last ones to be considered.

Here are some of my thoughts why Apple won't have replaced RIM as #1 by 05/25/2009.

RIM offers devices through all US carriers. Apple offers the iPhone only through AT&T. I don't see companies wholesale switching wireless carriers (which means negotiating rates, changes in billing procedures, etc) just to offer their users a better UI. AT&T wanted us to sign a contract that guaranteed them a certain $ in sales, ramping up over a 5 year period, before they'd offer us any discount. Verizon gives us a great deal simply for the fact we have so many devices on their network. We have no signed contract with them.

RIM supports Exchange (49%), Lotus Notes (37%), and Groupwise (8%). The bracketed numbers are Gartner's estimate of that platforms marketshare of corporate email. Apple offers no full-PIM sync solution for 45% of corporate email platforms.

Device cost. My company (which is relatively small compared to what I see others on BlackberryForums.com talk about) can get a new RIM device for $49. Apple current offers no discounts.

Insurance. If one of our users breaks or loses his RIM device, we can get it replaced for a $50 co-pay. AT&T offers no insurance on the iPhone.

Remains to be seen how through Apple implements iPhone "security management" and "device configuration".

Remains to be see how Apple will offer business support for the iPhone. Does it go into the same queue of calls as consumers that can't sync?

The pace of business doesn't work nearly as fast as you think it does. I think it's realistic to see betas and even pilots of the iPhone in corporations within the first year, but I can't think of a single business that would do a wholesale migration from RIM to iPhone (which is what would be required for Apple to displace RIM as #1 in a years time) simply because the iPhone gives the user a "next generation" experience.

How do you put a ROI on a "next generation" experience? Again, as a user of both platforms, I personally prefer the iPhone, but I've given too many BlackBerrys to users that have never used one before and have seen them figure it out on their own to know that as "previous generation" as it is, it's still a useful tool.
 
When you starting from single digit market share, actually you need to do much better.

Also, dont confuse shipment growth in a growing market with market share growth, which is clearly much lower.

Archie,

What has this to do with the iPhone vs. BlackBerry? Common trick to shift the true nature of the conversation. Mac growth over PC growth has nothing to do with RIM.

Alex
 
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