Hot Stove thread

[gwuMACaddict]

now tejada is saying that he never wanted to be traded, the "change of scenery" comment just meant that he wanted to see new faces on the team...

errr...

can't blame him either way...

 

[IJ Reilly]

As to third, I read rumors the Dodgers are going for a trade involving David Bell. Heard anything?

Not a thing. Not even any good whispers about third, or the vacancies in the outfield or rotation. Where did you hear the Bell rumor?

As for first, this long-suffering Dodger fan could stand the Choi/Saenz platoon until mid-season. I've seen flashes of greatness in Choi and I'd like see the kid get another opportunity to play under new management. We know he can hit a ton. Maybe he just needs more playing time.

 

[aloofman]

I have to disagree with you aloofman. Snow is the best defensive first baseman I've ever seen play the game. Better than Parker (Wes not Dave,) better than Hernandez, and better than Donnie Ballgame. As a hitter he has become solid if not spectacular. Is that better than the Dodgers' platoon? Choi has a hole in his swing the size of a mac truck. Saenz is a perennial bench player with no prospects as a starter. Only thing they have over Snow is age. Now if you're talking Kent as a alternative at first, then I give the nod to him because of his quality bat.

As to third, I read rumors the Dodgers are going for a trade involving David Bell. Heard anything?

I hadn't heard Bell. The word is that they were pursuing Bill Mueller or Joe Randa. Whoop dee freakin' doo.

We're going to have to keep disagreeing about Snow. His great glove doesn't make up for an only occasionally hot bat and he has little power. That would be OK for a second baseman or catcher, but not at first base. None of these guys are world-beaters, but Saenz and Choi are at least as productive on offense and far cheaper. Snow wouldn't save enough errors in a season to make up the difference in my mind.

Favorite J.T. Snow story: when he first started a season with the Angels, he tore up the league for about 4-6 weeks, hit over .400, and everybody was about to anoint him the next great young star. Right about then the LA Times had a story recalling a previous Angels star (from the 1960s or '70s, can't remember which). That guy had also had a hot start as a rookie, but went ice cold soon after, so cold that he was sent back to the minors by season's end. After that Times article the same thing happened to Snow. He was only AAA for a little while and he bounced back up to stay. And later of course the Giants got him for a song. At the time there was no way to know Snow's career would last this long, but even then I remember thinking the Angels got hosed.

I haven't heard about many Giants moves lately. Am I right in guessing that last year's veteran player spending spree has kind of tied their hands now?

 

[Sayhey]

IJ and aloofman, the Bell rumor comes from ESPN. I don't pay for their "insider" sites, but they had a little more information on Monday that I can't find. Now all that is available to the non-paying customer is comment under Monday's "The Skinny" of "Dodgers ringing Bell?" Sorry, I can't give you more.

aloofman, one more comment on JT and I'll let it slide. Snow was the streaky hitter you describe for most of his career with the Giants. That was true especially when he was a switch-hitter - he was hopeless as a right handed batter. However, his game has changed the last few years and he has become a very consistent hitter, with a much higher batting average and on-base percentage than any time in his major league tenure. The sacrifice is the loss of most of his power. Anyway, whoever gets him will have a good hitter, a great defensive player and a quality guy in the clubhouse. I'm just hoping it's not your team.

IJ, I agree Choi has his moments, but is the guy ever going to figure out how to hit a breaking ball? I remember Matt Williams was in a similar situation and he finally broke through to become a star. I also remember a guy on the Giants named JR Phillips who had the power and the defense to become a stand out first baseman for years to come. Can you remember him? He never figured out how to hit the breaking ball and is consigned to obscure trivia contests. Which one will Choi follow? I don't know, but I know, that right now, he doesn't scare anyone who can throw a pitch that moves. To me the question becomes, how many of these type players can a team have on their roster? Unless you give up and say this is a rebuilding year, I don't think you can have very many, especially as starters.

edit: oops! sorry, aloofman, I forgot to respond to your last comment. The one that really hurts is not the free agents from last year, but the big bucks they are paying to Edgardo Alfonzo. Now, you folks are in need of a third baseman ...

 

[IJ Reilly]

You said it before I did. After a 91-loss season, I'm consigned to a building year. This might mean having a longer look at Choi, and some of the other young players, than we've had so far. I'm certainly aware of his problems hitting the breaking stuff and with left-hand pitching, but still he batted .250 with 15 homers last year in a limited role, so he's hardly embarrassing. He's also entirely adequate defensively. He's no Steve Garvey, but not a hammer-hands by any means. Probably what's really gnawing at me is the prospect of him being traded in favor of a fading veteran, and then seeing him develop into a solid player somewhere else.

 

[Sayhey]

You said it before I did. After a 91-loss season, I'm consigned to a building year. This might mean having a longer look at Choi, and some of the other young players, than we've had so far. I'm certainly aware of his problems hitting the breaking stuff and with left-hand pitching, but still he batted .250 with 15 homers last year in a limited role, so he's hardly embarrassing. He's also entirely adequate defensively. He's no Steve Garvey, but not a hammer-hands by any means. Probably what's really gnawing at me is the prospect of him being traded in favor of a fading veteran, and then seeing him develop into a solid player somewhere else.

I can understand your sentiments, but with the signing of Furcal haven't the Dodgers signaled that they are only going to go with the Choi/Saenz platoon for the first half of the year? I don't know about you, IJ, but to me unless they plan on unloading Izturis, the future of first base seems to be Jeff Kent. It looks like the Dodgers are going to look for a short term solution at third and give their rookies there a chance to develop, not Choi.

 

[aloofman]

IJ, I agree Choi has his moments, but is the guy ever going to figure out how to hit a breaking ball? I remember Matt Williams was in a similar situation and he finally broke through to become a star. I also remember a guy on the Giants named JR Phillips who had the power and the defense to become a stand out first baseman for years to come. Can you remember him? He never figured out how to hit the breaking ball and is consigned to obscure trivia contests. Which one will Choi follow? I don't know, but I know, that right now, he doesn't scare anyone who can throw a pitch that moves. To me the question becomes, how many of these type players can a team have on their roster? Unless you give up and say this is a rebuilding year, I don't think you can have very many, especially as starters.

edit: oops! sorry, aloofman, I forgot to respond to your last comment. The one that really hurts is not the free agents from last year, but the big bucks they are paying to Edgardo Alfonzo. Now, you folks are in need of a third baseman ...

You haven't convinced me on Snow, but if a Giants fan doesn't like the idea, then it can't be all bad. And if you want to unload Alfonzo, we can't possibly want him. Unless you're just saying that in hopes that we'll do the opposite, in which case we will act accordingly!

Believe it or not, I actually remember JR Phillips. Around 1995 I attended a Padres game at the Murph vs. the Giants. Phillips came to the plate sporting a sub-.150 average but with a couple homers. My roommate boldly predicted he'd go yard now, I told him he was a moron, and of course Phillips did hit it out, and I lost five bucks. Because of that, I did remember his name when I heard it over the next year or two. My recollection is that he was one of those guys that a team was sure would work out eventually but never did.

Re Choi: I think he's worth keeping at first for a few reasons: (1) the Dodgers don't have anyone better at that position right now, (2) almost anyone else they get to play it will cost a lot more, and (3) I think his production suffered last year because Tracy used him so sparingly. I think the first couple months of '06 will be his real audition and a chance to prove he belongs there. Otherwise they'll unload him and he'll end up with a middling career in Tampa or something.

 

[aloofman]

I can understand your sentiments, but with the signing of Furcal haven't the Dodgers signaled that they are only going to go with the Choi/Saenz platoon for the first half of the year? I don't know about you, IJ, but to me unless they plan on unloading Izturis, the future of first base seems to be Jeff Kent. It looks like the Dodgers are going to look for a short term solution at third and give their rookies there a chance to develop, not Choi.

Honestly, I still don't know what to make of the Furcal signing. It's not exactly a vote of confidence in Izturis. I really thought that they'd be going for third base, a power outfielder and another starter before shortstop would even come up. I know they needed a real leadoff man (which Izturis is not because he hardly ever walks), but I'm still a little puzzled by the whole thing.

Kent is only signed through 2006, as far as I know. So I don't consider him a real solution at first. If the Dodgers get off to a bad start, it's reasonable to expect them to trade Kent. His real value is at second, so to me putting him at first is kind of like admitting defeat or something.

 

[Sayhey]

OK, I agree to disagree on JT. Now, how about a Choi for Alfonzo swap? Which probably tells you more about what I think about the Giants own first base project, otherwise known as Lance Niekro, than about any vote of confidence in Choi. The Giants are paying about 6 million for what looks like a back up utility infielder in the person of Alfonzo. He still has a great glove and is an acceptable contact hitter, but no range and little power. Just what you folks need.

Isn't Kent your best hitter? How do you not look to keep him?

 

[aloofman]

Isn't Kent your best hitter? How do you not look to keep him?

In the grand scheme of things, he probably is. I would argue that when he's healthy, Drew is our best hitter. But the first part of that sentence is more important than the last.

Keeping Kent would depend greatly on whether his production stays high in 2006, how much money he wants, how much longer he wants to play, and whether the Dodgers are contending in July. I don't know how many of those things the team has any control over. Kent is a Socal native, but I understand that he lives in Arizona or Texas or something. Kent doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would give a hometown discount. Or, you know, a guy who would offer anyone anything. I believe he's a 10/5 guy who could veto any trade.

On the other hand, maybe the best-case scenario is that Choi plays well at first, Izturis comes back and does well at second, and they have the luxury of trading Kent for solid prospects or pitching. Hell, I don't know.

 

[Sayhey]

From an outsider's perspective, when I look at the Dodgers I see some very good things and a lot of holes. I see a lineup that starts: Furcal (major upgrade,) izturis, JD Drew, Kent, and Werth. That's an ok top of the order without giving up much in defense. Now I understand Navarro is worth waiting for and as an eighth place hitter he is worth taking the immediate problems of his tender age for the promise of his defense and hopefully someday a star on offense as well. Which leaves your sixth and seventh spots and Centerfield and Third base respectively. You've got to get rid of Bradley and Jose Cruz isn't the answer - trust me on this. Third base I guess goes, for now, to Robles. Somehow, Colletti has to fill these positions and I'm guessing it's not going to be from within. Only problem with that is he also has to replace Weaver in the starting rotation, which I take as his biggest problem.

If Colletti can pull off a trade with the Philles for Bell, your problems at third are solved, but it looks to me like he has got to sign a legit CF (what is Preston Wilson doing these days?) and a middle of the rotation starter (going to cost a lot in this market.) Heh, the LA boys at least look better than they did at the end of the year, which is a lot more than I can say for the Padres, D'backs, and Rockies.

edit: here is a new rumor for the Dodger outfield - Jacque Jones. What do you think?

 

[IJ Reilly]

For the record, Kent is signed only through '06. He's already made noises about asking for a trade if the Dodgers aren't acting like they want to be competitive. I think by the end of July, either Kent or Choi become trade bait; Kent if they aren't competitive, Choi if they are. Assuming of course that Izturis comes back well enough to play second. This must be Colletti's thinking, given that Izturis is too valuable not to want back, but will remain a question mark until long after opening day. If the "winning" scenario plays out, and Colletti gets to move Choi, it can only boosts his trade value if Choi plays some ball in April-May-June. The bench is not much of a showcase. If the Dodgers are out of things by July, Kent gets unloaded, possibly for a prospect or two.

As for the outfield, personally, I was hoping the Dodgers would get Dave Roberts back. Not much pop, but can you imagine him in the number two spot in the order after Furcal? Alas, he has re-signed with San Diego.

 

[aloofman]

I think Antonio Perez would have been a better option at third because in his brief time he's shown more consistency at the plate. The problem is that he naturally plays short and didn't take well to third base. That and he recently broke his face playing in the Dominican.

Preston Wilson does not excite me at all. He strikes out too much and his numbers were inflated in Denver. Again, doesn't mean Colletti won't get him.

So I could return the favor on the Giants: It looks to me like their rotation depends on whether you get the good Lowry or the crappy one. I know he's had good stretches where you think, "Man, this guy can make a great #2 to Schmidt." And then I've seen at least a couple games where I thought, "Even I know not to throw that guy that pitch." Assuming Benitez stays healthy, the bullpen should be decent during the regular season, at least.

Obviously they got Sweeney to improve their outfield depth now that Grissom finally ran out of gas. You'd probably rather have Feliz at first instead of Niekro, but if Bonds and/or Alou go down for any length of time (and you gotta figure at least one will), then you need Feliz in the outfield too.

From what I can tell, third is their biggest hole, along with the big bats getting older. As usual, it all really seems to be on Bonds' shoulders because he's the difference between a pretty good scoring team and a lineup that can be dealt with. Does anyone on the planet know Bonds' physical state? Obviously you can never be sure about his knee at his age, but eventually his production has to tail off. I know everyone has been predicting it for years, but sooner or later it has to happen. He seems like a real wild card to me.

 

[aloofman]

For the record, Kent is signed only through '06. He's already made noises about asking for a trade if the Dodgers aren't acting like they want to be competitive. I think by the end of July, either Kent or Choi become trade bait; Kent if they aren't competitive, Choi if they are. Assuming of course that Izturis comes back well enough to play second. This must be Colletti's thinking, given that Izturis is too valuable not to want back, but will remain a question mark until long after opening day. If the "winning" scenario plays out, and Colletti gets to move Choi, it can only boosts his trade value if Choi plays some ball in April-May-June. The bench is not much of a showcase. If the Dodgers are out of things by July, Kent gets unloaded, possibly for a prospect or two.

As for the outfield, personally, I was hoping the Dodgers would get Dave Roberts back. Not much pop, but can you imagine him in the number two spot in the order after Furcal? Alas, he has re-signed with San Diego.

I agree that they're waiting to see whether to move Kent or Choi. The right side of the infield will soon get too crowded and someone will have to go. If they both played really well then that would be a nice problem to have.

While I liked Roberts and thought he was a good guy, speed was his only real asset. He didn't work a count or get on base enough to really play leadoff. More importantly, I don't think there's enough room for him in the outfield right now, unless you're assuming that Drew will be out for a long time. Getting benched in favor of more productive players was the reason they traded him to Boston in the first place. I don't see him being better than the Ledee, Cruz, or Werth. From a personal standpoint, I'd rather he be getting regular playing time in San Diego than as the Dodger pinch runner.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I agree that they're waiting to see whether to move Kent or Choi. The right side of the infield will soon get too crowded and someone will have to go. If they both played really well then that would be a nice problem to have.

While I liked Roberts and thought he was a good guy, speed was his only real asset. He didn't work a count or get on base enough to really play leadoff. More importantly, I don't think there's enough room for him in the outfield right now, unless you're assuming that Drew will be out for a long time. Getting benched in favor of more productive players was the reason they traded him to Boston in the first place. I don't see him being better than the Ledee, Cruz, or Werth. From a personal standpoint, I'd rather he be getting regular playing time in San Diego than as the Dodger pinch runner.

Oddly, Dave Roberts got almost no playing time in Boston. I think he's better defensively than either Werth or Ledee, and always a threat when he's on base. Possibly not the ideal leadoff hitter, but I can see him working very well in the number two spot. I think he got traded because DePodesta didn't value speed on the basepaths. I have an idea this was one of the areas of conflict between Tracy and DePodesta.

 

[Sayhey]

Sounds like a good scenario to me, IJ, but it means ending any type of platoon at first and giving Choi a shot to show he can grow into the job. If Choi is as good as you hope he is then you will have a wonderful delimma come Izturis return. Overall, I think you give the Dodgers too little credit; they will be in the hunt for the division and maybe more with the right additions.

aloofman, I must confess I know too little about Perez (late breaking news - he went in a trade with Bradley to the A's for an outfield prospect) to comment, but wouldn't you rather have Bell? About the Giants, I don't think their problem is at third. Either Feliz or Alfonzo plays the position well and if you take the good with the bad they both are a plus at the plate. Feliz strikes out too much, but has great power. Alfonzo will hit for a better average, but has lost almost all his power. Just depends on what we get from the rest of the lineup. My biggest concern is another starting pitcher and what happens with Niekro at First.

I like much of the Giants rotation, Schmidt and Morris are a great one, two punch, and Lowry is just coming into his own. Noah had the kind of start last year you would think a player in his first full year would have - rocky, but he straightened it out and showed he is a star in the making. Cain had a end of the year like Lowry had the year before and I expect the same kind of ups and downs from him. He has a tremendous potential and I'm all for letting the kid pitch as their number 5 starter. What I'm not excited about is the fourth starter, Brad Hennessey or Kevin Correia. Either one is fine as a spot starter coming out of bullpen, but no team should go into a season with 40% of their starting rotation as green as this. The Dodgers share this with the Giants, with the prospect of starting Jackson as their number 5 and who knows who as number 4. Both teams need a middle of the order starter, and both teams could do with a lefty in that role. Want to fight over Washburn?

Yes, it all depends on Bonds and Alou's health. If they can stay in the lineup the Giants will drive in runs. If not then we will have to try and play small ball. Say, isn't that the same with the Dodgers without Drew?

 

[aloofman]

I agree the Dodgers will be in the hunt for the division, partly because no one else has really improved either. I think maybe all of our fretting is about trying to avoid being a rehash of the 2005 Padres: division winners, but still crappy.

On the one hand, the Dodgers traded two injured and somewhat problematic players for a highly-regarded prospect, so that's good. But it also makes them even thinner among players with big league experience. Either Colletti has a 3B in mind, or he thinks Robles will do. And of course it depends on whether the prospect pans out or not. I suppose the trade makes Kent slightly less disgruntled too.

I always thought Bell was a bit overrated. His numbers are average for a 3B and he played in hitter-happy Philly. I suppose it's a matter of whether they went to spend $4-5m to get a little better at that position.

I'd be happy to fight over Washburn as long as the Giants win and pay him too much.

 

[Sayhey]

At this point I don't care if they pay too much to Washburn or any other starting pitcher as long as we have a quality rotation going into the season. 50 plus years without a Series title is too long for this Giants fan. Of course, it is not my money to spend.

I agree the trade does seem to be the first of others to come. Bell makes more sense now than before. He isn't going to make you forget Beltre, but he'll provide solid defense and clutch hitting. Now who plays center if they don't make a trade there?

 

[aloofman]

I agree the trade does seem to be the first of others to come. Bell makes more sense now than before. He isn't going to make you forget Beltre, but he'll provide solid defense and clutch hitting. Now who plays center if they don't make a trade there?

Do you mean the phenomenal 2004 Beltre? Because I never expect to see the likes of that again. If Bell turned out to be the pre-2004 Beltre, that wouldn't be so bad, but it seems like a short-term fix because he's well past 30.

Last spring training there was a teapot tempest when Drew expressed a desire to play center, the logic being that right field would put more stress on his knee. Since Bradley was already there and was only in partial meltdown, he deferred. Now that Bradley is gone, I expect Drew will say he wants to play center again. Last season after Bradley went down it was Repko who played center, but so far he's been a classic all-field, no-hit outfielder. If Repko can hit decently, then I would he happy to keep Drew in right because having both Cruz and Ledee as starters is a physical breakdown waiting to happen. Like Bonds and Alou without the offense.

 

[Sayhey]

Do you mean the phenomenal 2004 Beltre? Because I never expect to see the likes of that again. If Bell turned out to be the pre-2004 Beltre, that wouldn't be so bad, but it seems like a short-term fix because he's well past 30.

Last spring training there was a teapot tempest when Drew expressed a desire to play center, the logic being that right field would put more stress on his knee. Since Bradley was already there and was only in partial meltdown, he deferred. Now that Bradley is gone, I expect Drew will say he wants to play center again. Last season after Bradley went down it was Repko who played center, but so far he's been a classic all-field, no-hit outfielder. If Repko can hit decently, then I would he happy to keep Drew in right because having both Cruz and Ledee as starters is a physical breakdown waiting to happen. Like Bonds and Alou without the offense.

Bell is certainly a short term solution, but don't the Dodgers have two young infield prospects for the future (Young and LaRoche I believe.) If either are as good as advertised, you're only talking a year or two with Bell.

I don't understand how right field puts greater strain on Drew's knee. It strikes me it should be the reverse, with the greater area a centerfielder must cover. Maybe if the rumors about Jones are true they will put Drew in center and Jones in right. It would solve the problem, again, assuming Drew stays healthy. With Cruz and and Ledee, my take is that they both define streak hitters. Cruz, especially, can get hot and jerk some balls out of the park, but for most of the time he just flails at pitches. Of course, I'm biased as hell; I can't forget his dropped ball against the Marlins in the 2003 playoffs.

 

[aloofman]

I don't understand how right field puts greater strain on Drew's knee. It strikes me it should be the reverse, with the greater area a centerfielder must cover. Maybe if the rumors about Jones are true they will put Drew in center and Jones in right. It would solve the problem, again, assuming Drew stays healthy. With Cruz and and Ledee, my take is that they both define streak hitters. Cruz, especially, can get hot and jerk some balls out of the park, but for most of the time he just flails at pitches. Of course, I'm biased as hell; I can't forget his dropped ball against the Marlins in the 2003 playoffs.

The theory is that a corner outfielder has to field more balls that are changing direction, bouncing into the corner, off angled walls, that kind of thing. Switching directions while running puts far more strain on fragile knee ligaments than running in a straight line does. I don't know if this was just Drew's theory, or if there's any reason to think that it's true. Drew apparently did play center in the minors but he knew he'd never play there in St. Louis (Edmonds) or Atlanta (Jones). So it might be that he just wants to return to a position that he enjoys playing. At any rate, I imagine the Dodgers will at least try him out there, since he's by far the highest-paid outfielder.

I take it you're referring to Jacque Jones for center field? It sounds more like a suggestion than a real rumor. I don't know.

 

[macbaseball]

I take it you're referring to Jacque Jones for center field? It sounds more like a suggestion than a real rumor. I don't know.

Well, according to ESPN.com, it's a suggestion, as the Dodgers aren't interested in Jones accroding to them.

 

[Sayhey]

Well, according to ESPN.com, it's a suggestion, as the Dodgers aren't interested in Jones accroding to them.

Oh really? The story I read on ESPN said just the opposite. Where did you get the info the Dodgers aren't interested? If it's true I don't know enough about Jones to say if he'd be better than Drew in center or he should play right. I do take it that it's an indication the Dodgers are looking for an established outfielder.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Oh really? The story I read on ESPN said just the opposite. Where did you get the info the Dodgers aren't interested? If it's true I don't know enough about Jones to say if he'd be better than Drew in center or he should play right. I do take it that it's an indication the Dodgers are looking for an established outfielder.

They have to be now that Bradley is gone. They had to before Bradley was gone -- because there was never any knowing if or when he'd implode. Or explode. Or whatever it is he's doing when he breaks a bat over his thigh.

According to mlb.com, Jones is close to a deal with St. Louis, and the Dodgers are still talking to Damon.

 

[macbaseball]

According to mlb.com, Jones is close to a deal with St. Louis, and the Dodgers are still talking to Damon.

Sorry SayHey. I hadn't read that article. The ones I've read back up the Dodgers interest in Damon, not Jones.