If Apple was actually serious about gaming and wanted to create it's own version of a Steam Machine how should they do it?

[theluggage]

How much cheaper can apple go? The M4 Mini retails for 600 at apple.com, but frequently discounted to below 500 by others (apple too?).

Well, as low as they like really. The Apple TV with 128GB storage sells for $150 and (maybe with the processor brought up-to-date) would probably be capable of running MacOS & "personal productivity" stuff. I'm sure they could make a non-M-series Mini for, say $300, without taking a loss.

The question is, what would the market be for that and would the advantages of providing a cheap, attractive route into the Mac ecosystem (bringing new customers into Apple services, and creating future buyers of more expensive Macs) outweigh a few M-series Mini sales.

I think the rumoured A18 MacBook Air is a better idea for a "cheap Mac" though - these days, wanting a desktop is already a bit "specialist", and there's already proof-of-concept for a cheap, lower-spec Air in the form of "new" M1/M2 Airs already widely available at low prices.

The M4 Mini is already pretty affordable and compares well with competing mini-PCs (until you get to the point of bumping the internal storage or RAM which is q.v. ad nauseam in other threads and probably isn't gonna change while RAM and SSD prices are spiking the way they are right now).

 

[Allen_Wentz]

I disagree. The chips in volume pricing are around $11 for 256G, $19 for 512G and $34 for 1TB.

What we’re getting is shafted.

You simply want more for the same money, which (before talk of tariffs) we invariably received with each new generation. I see it differently. The constant clamoring for more for the same money gets really old, and frankly is boring. Of course every buyer wants more for the same money; the whole world from Tim Cook down to every Apple employee and every single buyer already knows that.

My concern is that we have sufficient choice. IMO buyers should be able to choose, not be limited either on the low end or on the high end, except that low end products like MBA should have lower capacity choices and higher end products like MBP should have higher capacity choices.

Then y'all go ahead and choose. Simply do not buy Macs if the price is too high, or choose a lower end model. Or pay more to get whatever capacity it is that your workflow will need over the future life cycle that you are choosing for each new box.

 

[cjsuk]

You simply want more for the same money, which (before talk of tariffs) we invariably received with each new generation. I see it differently. The constant clamoring for more for the same money gets really old, and frankly is boring. Of course every buyer wants more for the same money; the whole world from Tim Cook down to every Apple employee and every single buyer already knows that.

My concern is that we have sufficient choice. IMO buyers should be able to choose, not be limited either on the low end or on the high end, except that low end products like MBA should have lower capacity choices and higher end products like MBP should have higher capacity choices.

Then y'all go ahead and choose. Simply do not buy Macs if the price is too high, or choose a lower end model. Or pay more to get whatever capacity it is that your workflow will need over the future life cycle that you are choosing for each new box.

That's a bit of a straw man. Here's another one.

I don't want less for my money than other vendors. And the other vendors allow me to change my mind later without starting again.

That's just wrong.

(have a PC sitting next to me which had 1TB on day one and now has 5TB of storage in it)

 

[GioGiusi]

It is because of Apple mostly. They deprecated and killed all old games on their platform. They don't support popular/open graphics APIs like Vulkan. They don't think that old games are art that should be preserved. They don't want to make an emulator for old 32-bit macOS games and Windows games, like Valve. Apple pretends that they have gaming on Macs with subsidized new releases and some indie releases, but it's not a solution to an attitude problem. How many games can you play on macOS in percentage compared to SteamOS or Windows?

There is no point in investing much time to build games on macOS. At this point, this platform will probably not grow its gamer user percentage.

It is not an attitude problem. Supporting the kind of crap you’re talking about is technical debt that prevents the operating system from moving forward. Hence why windows no matter what coat of paint it gets every year is still basically windows 95.

 

[macfacts]

The SteamDeck and SteamMachine have value entirely due to the effort Valve has put into Proton for Linux

valve only has about 350 employees, I'm sure apple could match that if they were serious about gaming, instead they 're working on emojis.

 

[modlife]

Its not about convincing, its about money, pure and simple.

Don't assume that studios haven't done their due diligence and, or are purposely leaving money on the table just because of some outdated and archaic feelings of mac vs. pc.

Just look at Microsoft and them moving their exclusives over to the playstation, or vice versa, Sony bringing their exclusives to the PC. They see dollar signs and they want to maximize their profits.

IF they are interested in moving into this space they need to make a case on how these studios and Apple will make money. Again, I am not assuming anything, I'm just stating that the pieces ARE already there, what is missing is the will.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Its not about convincing, its about money, pure and simple.

Don't assume that studios haven't done their due diligence and, or are purposely leaving money on the table just because of some outdated and archaic feelings of mac vs. pc.

Just look at Microsoft and them moving their exclusives over to the playstation, or vice versa, Sony bringing their exclusives to the PC. They see dollar signs and they want to maximize their profits.

That's it, money.😊

The PC market has quite a lot of powerful gaming machines and computers that incorporate cooling fans, enough RAM and 1-2TB SSDs. Not only that, but several of the internal components can be replaced by the user. The fact is that I could buy a PlayStation in any of the stores in town for 1/4th the price I would pay from a M4 Studio.

To me it would not make any sense to use my Mac Studio as a gaming machine. I leave my Studio for other tasks, and use one of the Gaming computers that costs around $2,000 to $2,500, machines that come with a keyboard, mouse, 32GB RAM, and 2TB SSD.

 

[Moka Akashiya]

It is not an attitude problem. Supporting the kind of crap you’re talking about is technical debt that prevents the operating system from moving forward. Hence why windows no matter what coat of paint it gets every year is still basically windows 95.

Supporting your platform for keeping games is exactly what being serious about gaming means.

I'm not compared it to Windows. i'm just saying that after years of selling good hardware, macOS steam percentage only dropped, while Linux got from 0.5% to 3%, higher than macOS, thanks to emulation. Linux doesn't look like win95 and got much more improvements in window management in any distro than macOS.

All i get personally from "moving forward" on macOS is:
- Zero Finder improvements since tabs, only new bugs, like unfixed Finder column bug i see everyday
- Unfixed menubar on nothless macbooks since Monterey, if you uncheck "separate spaces"
- No way to disable mission control swipe animation since Big Sur (There's finally a workaround since this summer in BetterTouchTool, if someone interested)
- ios-like low contrast redesign with worse battery life and a worse Finder layout

Seems like you're also disliking this Apple Intelligence / Liquid Glass direction. So where is macOS moved forward by your definition and experience after they dropped all their games in 2019? (Fun fact, even Grid game from macbooks 2015 presentation got killed)

 

[OptimusGrime]

This thread is exactly what I thought it would be.

 

[Abazigal]

As I said, developers worried that Apple could cancel the Apple TV - they won’t do that to iPhones and they get updates annually so perhaps that’s the platform and processor to aim at.

I feel the biggest limitation with the Apple TV is that it doesn't come bundled with a game controller. This makes it very hard for developers to design games for said platform because they cannot be certain that users will go out of their way to purchase a separate controller just for their title.

As it is, some games like Grimvalor are already optimised for iOS and support game controllers. It shouldn't cost the developers anything to make it available for the Apple TV (heck, it can be found on the switch App Store, and I enjoy the game enough that I really don't mind buying it again), because all the code and all the resources are already there.

Which is a shame because for awhile, there were some decent games available for the Apple TV (via Apple Arcade) like World of Demons which I had a lot of fun with, but the game never felt complete, and it was eventually removed from Apple Arcade once its contract was up, and Apple seems to have gone back to focusing on mobile-first titles again. 😕

 

[lapstags]

I feel the biggest limitation with the Apple TV is that it doesn't come bundled with a game controller. This makes it very hard for developers to design games for said platform because they cannot be certain that users will go out of their way to purchase a separate controller just for their title.

As it is, some games like Grimvalor are already optimised for iOS and support game controllers. It shouldn't cost the developers anything to make it available for the Apple TV (heck, it can be found on the switch App Store, and I enjoy the game enough that I really don't mind buying it again), because all the code and all the resources are already there.

Which is a shame because for awhile, there were some decent games available for the Apple TV (via Apple Arcade) like World of Demons which I had a lot of fun with, but the game never felt complete, and it was eventually removed from Apple Arcade once its contract was up, and Apple seems to have gone back to focusing on mobile-first titles again. 😕

Apples management are morons when it comes to gaming.

 

[Ethosik]

What game publisher/developer will increase their overhead, complexity for 2% of gamers playing on the mac?

Here's the issue as I see it, if a publisher produces a game on windows, that means that its available on linux/steam deck, and mac users can play it via crossover and/or Geforce Now. What motivation is there for studios, to add a platform that will not increase their sales.

View attachment 2579445

Macs are not known for gaming, and given their marketshare, I don't see that changing

Yep, even though I am using Unity and it can build macOS binaries and even have produced one for my game, I am not focusing on it right now. I already detected some optimization issues with the macOS version so that is going on the back burner. I am focusing on Windows.

Nothing Apple could do, even if they make an entry level Mac perform at the level of a 6090, it doesn't change the numbers you have posted.

And as a gamer, even if Apple were to suddenly release the killer of all GPUs and make the absolute BEST gaming system out there, I still have 600+ games in my Steam library. I will continue to play on Windows thank you.

 

[Ethosik]

I'm SUPER interested in that Steam Machine.

Apparently I have heard rumors it is going to perform LESS than a base PS5 but cost MORE than it. That is not a good thing.

 

[VisionProRocks]

The hardware is there. All they need are developers to put real effort into the platform. We see it a little with cyberpunk, resident evil, etc but it's a farcry from where traditional consoles and windows based machines are.

 

[lapstags]

The hardware is there. All they need are developers to put real effort into the platform. We see it a little with cyberpunk, resident evil, etc but it's a farcry from where traditional consoles and windows based machines are.

I think assassins creed shadows and cyberpunk are coming to iPad

 

[jlnr]

Apparently I have heard rumors it is going to perform LESS than a base PS5 but cost MORE than it. That is not a good thing.

Okay, now compare the cost after buying a handful of games. Valve cannot subsidize the Steam Machine because it is a completely unlocked PC.

But deciding what chip or what specs is where it falls down because what is the market for this machine? Who does it serve, and what do they need this extra performance to run?

Apple was pretty close to building a Steam Machine when they re-launched the Apple TV about a decade ago. They wanted to get into the living room, they allowed tvOS games to require a controller, they later launched Apple Arcade with (then) 100% support for tvOS, they could have gotten "serious" games onto tvOS by partnering with a streaming service... The business case is that I would then still have an Apple TV that has everything from iCloud Photos to apps to games to movies, keeping me invested in the Apple service world.

Unfortunately, third-party ("MFi") gamepads were expensive and terrible, Arcade was disappointing (especially on tvOS), app management was clunky, Apple had just nuked Game Center for unclear reasons, and even the original TV remote was stupid. The GPU being underpowered was almost the smallest of problems, just look at how much fun people have with the Switch. And now we live in a world where very few people have an Apple device in their living room. Even if they care about Apple TV and AirPlay, chances are their Samsung TV has apps for that.

Edit: So yeah, I agree there is no market for this machine anymore. tvOS and Arcade had their chance.

 

[sublunar]

How much cheaper can apple go? The M4 Mini retails for 600 at apple.com, but frequently discounted to below 500 by others (apple too?).
View attachment 2579959

Depends how much apple charge for the rumoured 13” entry level MacBook. 499 usd for an entry a19 mini while the MacBook costs 699?

As you’ve shown the third party retailers could then drop prices at regular intervals to make the cost of entry for macs lower still.

 

[sublunar]

Well, as low as they like really. The Apple TV with 128GB storage sells for $150 and (maybe with the processor brought up-to-date) would probably be capable of running MacOS & "personal productivity" stuff. I'm sure they could make a non-M-series Mini for, say $300, without taking a loss.

The question is, what would the market be for that and would the advantages of providing a cheap, attractive route into the Mac ecosystem (bringing new customers into Apple services, and creating future buyers of more expensive Macs) outweigh a few M-series Mini sales.

I think the rumoured A18 MacBook Air is a better idea for a "cheap Mac" though - these days, wanting a desktop is already a bit "specialist", and there's already proof-of-concept for a cheap, lower-spec Air in the form of "new" M1/M2 Airs already widely available at low prices.

The M4 Mini is already pretty affordable and compares well with competing mini-PCs (until you get to the point of bumping the internal storage or RAM which is q.v. ad nauseam in other threads and probably isn't gonna change while RAM and SSD prices are spiking the way they are right now).

Giving it a bit more thought here, what about updating the iPad mini with a19 pro and pro-motion display in October 2026? The main gripe about the current model is the display and jelly scrolling so surely fixing that gives Apple a handheld gaming device that could match a forthcoming Apple tv update?

 

[macfacts]

"fool me once ..." the mac OS isn't like iOS yet but many times iOS updates would break compatibility with older games. can't fool me twice if I don't "put my eggs"/invest in apple hardware

 

[throAU]

I’d be more interested in a cut price entry level A19 pro powered Mac mini if they are doing a MacBook based on it.

That's the next AppleTV 4k

 

[teh_hunterer]

just look at how much fun people have with the Switch.

This really says it all. There are heaps of games on the Switch and they all just work without a whole bunch of weirdness.

The iPad really should be Apple's Switch and Steam Deck competitor, because it is by far the nicer and more powerful device from a hardware standpoint. I like gaming on my MacBook but it just isn't the same as something smaller. Switch and Steam Deck are great because you can steal some gaming time in the in between moments, in small space. You can't really do that on a Mac.

I have a newborn at the moment and the opportunity cost of going and getting my Mac to game means I pretty much won't get to play anything. If the iPad actually had a comparable selection of real, actually good games like Switch and SD did, it would be amazing.

 

[Tim Jobs the 2nd]

Pippin returns?!

 

[sublunar]

That's the next AppleTV 4k

Thought the rumours had pinned an A17pro to the next Apple tv unit though?

 

[maflynn]

valve only has about 350 employees, I'm sure apple could match that if they were serious about gaming, instead they 're working on emojis.

How so?

In many respects apple and valve are not competitors. Valve makes most of its money from steam, AFAIK, they don't have a say on what platforms publisher support.

Apple's current hardware is such that many AAA games would be somewhat playable. Not RTX 5070 playable, but playable nonetheless.

 

[teh_hunterer]

How so?

In many respects apple and valve are not competitors. Valve makes most of its money from steam, AFAIK, they don't have a say on what platforms publisher support.

Apple's current hardware is such that many AAA games would be somewhat playable. Not RTX 5070 playable, but playable nonetheless.

I think he's saying that Valve managed to get almost everything playable on SteamOS, so you'd think Apple could do something similar given their resources.

Of course translating from Windows to Linux and DirectX to Vulkan on identical hardawre isn't the exact same thing as Windows to macOS, DirectX to Metal and a completely different GPU, and x86 to ARM...