iPhone X I'm not getting a new iPhone until the notch is gone.

[I7guy]

Pop-up camera feels like a regression to me:

• Another mechanical/moving part that can go bad over time
• Another point of ingress, potentially making water proofing harder or more prone to failure over time
  
• Another thing to potentially delay taking that timely photo
• The casing/motor/powerlines/etc to make a pop-up camera a possibility take up valuable cubic mm
• Everyone knows you're taking a photo (much harder to get good, candid shots)

There's probably more issues, those are just the few I come up with off the top of my head, the first two being primary considerations.

Truth be told, at least for me, you get the phone you want. The phone that has the more benefits and the least amount of compromises, subjectively speaking. I feel that moving external parts on a smartphone is a worse compromise than the notch. However, this is clearly a subjective opinion and are all of them in this thread.

 

[nouveau_redneck]

Truth be told, at least for me, you get the phone you want. The phone that has the more benefits and the least amount of compromises, subjectively speaking. I feel that moving external parts on a smartphone is a worse compromise than the notch. However, this is clearly a subjective opinion and are all of them in this thread.

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with you on this. I'd take the notch over the extending camera, even as much as I hate the notch.

Better yet, a thin top bezel is a better idea than either the extending camera or notch. I figure if Apple put their minds to it, the thin bezel would be thin enough that one would almost think it to be bezel-less.

 

[booksbooks]

I like the notch. I can tell which end is which easier.

That's not a problem, though. That's an aesthetic preference. The things I listed could be very real functional problems.

The notch creates several problems that also affect the usability of the device. It serves effectively no beneficial purpose and once Apple figures out how to have cameras and sensors on the front with no notch and an edge to edge screen, the notch will be dead.

The notch is nothing more than a consequence of a lack of technological know how.

 

[I7guy]

...

The notch is nothing more than a consequence of a lack of technological know how.

As is a pop up camera.

 

[44267547]

Pop-up camera feels like a regression to me:

• Another mechanical/moving part that can go bad over time.

If fairness, we can make that assumption, but we don’t know that Either. I watched the video posted by the OP above of the P30 Pro, and OnePlus states that the camera has been tested for 300,000 retractions, so even if you were to use the pop-up camera 150 times a day, it would take you five years to reach that number for any type of failure according to OnePlus. That’s fairly astonishing to be honest.

As I said, I think it’s easy to make any insinuation(s) we want, but 99% of members in here are not likely smart phone engineers, and for 300,000 retractions with the camera to be tested, would likely outlive even how long the user would keep the phone for given that type of testing.

 

[I7guy]

If fairness, we can make that assumption, but we don’t know that Either. I watched the video posted by the OP above of the P30 Pro, and OnePlus states that the camera has been tested for 300,000 retractions, so even if you were to use the pop-up camera 150 times a day, it would take you five years to reach that number for any type of failure according to OnePlus. That’s fairly astonishing to be honest.

As I said, I think it’s easy to make any insinuation(s) we want, but 99% of members in here not likely smart phone engineers, and for 300,000 retractions with the camera to be tested, would likely outlive even how long the user would keep the phone for given that type of testing.

Two thoughts:
1. It won’t break until it does.
2. If it’s that good oppo should design car bumpers.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

As a mechanical engineer I have to say drive screws are used on many things and have hundreds of thousands of operations. The pop up camera should be good if it’s not bashed or bent. It’s pretty cool to see innovations like this though and injects a bit of excitement into a smartphone industry that is pretty stale in terms of aesthetics and features. We shouldn’t knock it.

 

[Corsig]

Funny. I don't even notice the notch until I read yet another post about why people won't upgrade until the notch is gone. It's so bad that every android phone rushed to copy it.

 

[booksbooks]

As is a pop up camera.

How.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Funny. I don't even notice the notch until I read yet another post about why people won't upgrade until the notch is gone. It's so bad that every android phone rushed to copy it.

Marketing and brand association I would say rather than a must have feature. It’s not on every Android phone though, just a handful.

 

[Tsepz]

Funny. I don't even notice the notch until I read yet another post about why people won't upgrade until the notch is gone. It's so bad that every android phone rushed to copy it.

It was said before, OEMs put a notch in due to lack of know how around reducing bezels and fitting selfie cameras.

Android OEMs have done a great job of reducing the notch and finding ways around it.

It’s a great time to be a tech enthusiast, as we watch all these phone makers try tackle this and find a way around it.

 

[I7guy]

How.

This. Good synopsis of my opinion.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...e-notch-is-gone.2178645/page-12#post-27386797

 

[eoblaed]

The notch creates several problems that also affect the usability of the device. It serves effectively no beneficial purpose and once Apple figures out how to have cameras and sensors on the front with no notch and an edge to edge screen, the notch will be dead.

The notch is nothing more than a consequence of a lack of technological know how.

In no way has my usability of either my X or my XS Max been impacted by having the extra screen on either side of the sensors.

But if the mechanical components of that pop-up camera start to fail, whether it be difficulty popping up, slow movement, inability to retract, or water seal going bad after months of repeated use ... that is a very real impact. It will literally stop you from using a key component of that device. Nothing about the 'notch' will do that, ever.

Apple choosing to go with a notch is not a consequence of lack of technical know-how. Putting in a pop-up is obviously within easy reach of a company like Apple. But they have a demonstrated tendency to make their devices clean, with as few moving parts as possible (every moving part is something that will eventually fail), and a strong drive towards a reduction in ports. A pop-up camera violates all of those. There are, clearly, some people that don't agree with that decision on aesthetic principles, and that's fine. I'm certainly not going to brow beat someone for not liking something aesthetically. But to claim that a notch presents as many points of functional failure as a mechanical pop-out camera is not rational.
[doublepost=1558718983][/doublepost]

If fairness, we can make that assumption, but we don’t know that Either. I watched the video posted by the OP above of the P30 Pro, and OnePlus states that the camera has been tested for 300,000 retractions, so even if you were to use the pop-up camera 150 times a day, it would take you five years to reach that number for any type of failure according to OnePlus. That’s fairly astonishing to be honest.

As I said, I think it’s easy to make any insinuation(s) we want, but 99% of members in here are not likely smart phone engineers, and for 300,000 retractions with the camera to be tested, would likely outlive even how long the user would keep the phone for given that type of testing.

I'm sure those 300k retractions were tested in an automated fashion ... they'd have to be to achieve that many that quickly. What about accidental pop-ups when something might be interfering with the full motion (a hand, article of clothing, the car window against which you're propping up the camera, etc), or when debris has gathered around the little crevices of the 'port' created by this camera.. when the camera retracts, it's going to pull that stuff into the cavity with it. The 300k retractions were with a pristine device, not one with those little bits of dust and pocket lint, makeup, finger oils, food stuffs, etc, that build up on all devices.

I really do hope those cameras live full useful lives and don't end up frustrating users, but you can't ignore the risk that's taken in introducing a component like that. As much work as they put into making it robust, even the smallest risk is much more than the literally zero risk of not having one.

 

[bambooshots]

The notch creates several problems that also affect the usability of the device. It serves effectively no beneficial purpose and once Apple figures out how to have cameras and sensors on the front with no notch and an edge to edge screen, the notch will be dead.

The notch is nothing more than a consequence of a lack of technological know how.

I actually like the notch has it is a visual indicator of how the phone is oriented.

 

[craigio85]

The notch is nothing more than a consequence of a lack of technological know how.

Perhaps you should apply to work for Apple in product design. Show them how it should be done.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Perhaps you should apply to work for Apple in product design. Show them how it should be done.

I would imagine it’s pretty dull as the team is huge and individuals can’t be as creative as they’d want to be. I’ve had that myself in big companies where brand and identity is so strong the design is far too constrained.

 

[booksbooks]

In no way has my usability of either my X or my XS Max been impacted by having the extra screen on either side of the sensors.

But if the mechanical components of that pop-up camera start to fail, whether it be difficulty popping up, slow movement, inability to retract, or water seal going bad after months of repeated use ... that is a very real impact. It will literally stop you from using a key component of that device. Nothing about the 'notch' will do that, ever.

Apple choosing to go with a notch is not a consequence of lack of technical know-how. Putting in a pop-up is obviously within easy reach of a company like Apple. But they have a demonstrated tendency to make their devices clean, with as few moving parts as possible (every moving part is something that will eventually fail), and a strong drive towards a reduction in ports. A pop-up camera violates all of those. There are, clearly, some people that don't agree with that decision on aesthetic principles, and that's fine. I'm certainly not going to brow beat someone for not liking something aesthetically. But to claim that a notch presents as many points of functional failure as a mechanical pop-out camera is not rational.
[doublepost=1558718983][/doublepost]

I'm sure those 300k retractions were tested in an automated fashion ... they'd have to be to achieve that many that quickly. What about accidental pop-ups when something might be interfering with the full motion (a hand, article of clothing, the car window against which you're propping up the camera, etc), or when debris has gathered around the little crevices of the 'port' created by this camera.. when the camera retracts, it's going to pull that stuff into the cavity with it. The 300k retractions were with a pristine device, not one with those little bits of dust and pocket lint, makeup, finger oils, food stuffs, etc, that build up on all devices.

I really do hope those cameras live full useful lives and don't end up frustrating users, but you can't ignore the risk that's taken in introducing a component like that. As much work as they put into making it robust, even the smallest risk is much more than the literally zero risk of not having one.

What is your point? That you’re perhaps an Apple fan. That perhaps you’re not a product designer or business leader. Any product can be criticized. People like you who come on here and state obvious things like “It’s a moving part! It could fail!” Any part can fail, but it doesn’t mean it will.

The One Plus Pro 7 is passing some significant stress tests on YouTube. And if a person is that concerned about the fitness of a device, get extended warranty. Further, there are consumer protection laws, and if something has a higher than acceptable failure rate on a product, an extended warranty may occur from the company. Additionally, people’s smartphone upgrade cycle is between 2 and 3 years. The camera as tested at 300,000 times is an average of 5 years of use. Doesn’t mean, also, it won’t last many years past that.

The reality though is that I’m not the popup camera guy. I would narrowly accept it over the notch because the popup camera solves more problems than the notch and provides for a better user experience, but the ideal solution is transparent cameras and sensors in the front or ones so small as to fit in the tiny bezel.

If Apple did a popup camera, it would be ultra fast, small, only popup a small amount, be polished metal, likely rounded to blend in with the device when popped up, etc.

A person can only laugh out loud about this (It’s not a moving part! It can fail!):

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/water-in-earpiece-of-notch.2164855/

 

[I7guy]

What is your point? That you’re perhaps an Apple fan. That perhaps you’re not a product designer or business leader. Any product can be criticized. People like you who come on here and state obvious things like “It’s a moving part! It could fail!” Any part can fail, but it doesn’t mean it will.

The One Plus Pro 7 is passing some significant stress tests on YouTube. And if a person is that concerned about the fitness of a device, get extended warranty. Further, there are consumer protection laws, and if something has a higher than acceptable failure rate on a product, an extended warranty may occur from the company. Additionally, people’s smartphone upgrade cycle is between 2 and 3 years. The camera as tested at 300,000 times is an average of 5 years of use. Doesn’t mean, also, it won’t last many years past that.

The reality though is that I’m not the popup camera guy. I would narrowly accept it over the notch because the popup camera solves more problems than the notch and provides for a better user experience, but the ideal solution is transparent cameras and sensors in the front or ones so small as to fit in the tiny bezel.

If Apple did a popup camera, it would be ultra fast, small, only popup a small amount, be polished metal, likely rounded to blend in with the device when popped up, etc.

A person can only laugh out loud about this (It’s not a moving part! It can fail!):

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/water-in-earpiece-of-notch.2164855/

Subjectively, imo, a popup camera is a worse compromise than the notch. Citing some one-off thread about water ingress, applies equally to the oneplus. Water damage isn't covered and these phones are not sold as being guaranteed water proof.

My choice would never come down to picking a device based on a notch or pop-up camera. It just seems to me the notch is the better of the bad compromises.

And what do you mean "people like you". This topic has been beaten, like the proverbial horse and this thread doesn't add any new information to the debate at hand. Your own poll shows what the members are thinking.

 

[Mike82]

Subjectively, imo, a popup camera is a worse compromise than the notch.

And I can totally understand that if you take a lot of selfies. For someone like me, who maybe uses the front camera twice a year, I’d much prefer a pop-up camera if that means no notch.

 

[PieTunes]

And I can totally understand that if you take a lot of selfies. For someone like me, who maybe uses the front camera twice a year, I’d much prefer a pop-up camera if that means no notch.

Wouldn’t the pop up module also contain the components for Face ID so you’d be using it every time you’d authenticate your phone or use Apple Pay and logging in to websites?

 

[Mike82]

Wouldn’t the pop up module also contain the components for Face ID so you’d be using it every time you’d authenticate your phone or use Apple Pay and logging in to websites?

Possibly, I was thinking of a One Plus 7 pro-like solution, with a pop-up camera for selfies and a fingerprint screener under the screen. Provided it works well, of course. If I’d have to use Face ID I would probably prefer a notch.

 

[booksbooks]

Subjectively, imo, a popup camera is a worse compromise than the notch. Citing some one-off thread about water ingress, applies equally to the oneplus. Water damage isn't covered and these phones are not sold as being guaranteed water proof.

My choice would never come down to picking a device based on a notch or pop-up camera. It just seems to me the notch is the better of the bad compromises.

And what do you mean "people like you". This topic has been beaten, like the proverbial horse and this thread doesn't add any new information to the debate at hand. Your own poll shows what the members are thinking.

Why is the notch a better compromise than a popup camera.

 

[I7guy]

Why is the notch a better compromise than a popup camera.

Due to these reasons:

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...e-notch-is-gone.2178645/page-12#post-27386797

 

[mmomega]

I'm fine with it. Probably going to the Max this time around. Did the X and Xs most recently.
My car has a notch, my truck has a notch, and both were considerably more in cost than the phone.
It doesn't concern me in the same way as others and that's ok. I don't need a say so in how my products are design, I do the decision making with the purchasing.
I'd agree with the OP that I definitely would not in any way make a purchase if the design flustered me that much, no matter who makes whatever the thing is.

That car notch

 

[eoblaed]

What is your point?

The case was made that a pop-up camera is objectively better than a flush, on the face camera.

I was offering obvious counter-arguments to that. Sure, some people may prefer the aesthetics of a pop-up camera, but that does not make it objectively superior. There are compromises to be made with a pop-up, those compromises are pretty clear, and the preference for one or the other is at least subjective, if not leaning towards the less risky option.

That's all.

I know this is personal for you, the whole notch thing (I've never seen someone so persistently and vociferously angry about an aesthetic feature), and therefore any comments that do not fully embrace the 'notch is evil' viewpoint are threatening or laughable (mine are apparently the latter). It doesn't need to be that way, though. You can see from the poll here, along with all the anecdotal evidence out there, that most people really don't care about the notch. If this is the hill you want to die on, that's fine, but these are the realities:

• A pop-up camera frees up space on the screen, it's true, a couple of ~1mm dots.
• A pop-up camera also introduces extra complexity and extra risk of failure (as discussed above).
• Apple could've done a pop-up camera. The reason they didn't is obviously not technical incompetence (suggesting otherwise is dishonest), it was a conscious decision.
  
• Most people honestly don't care.

I don't doubt some future version of the iPhone will be notch-less, or notch-modified, but when they do it won't be because Apple suddenly figured out how to make a lens move up and down, it will be when the product designers feel like a different setup makes sense given all the various pros/cons, risk assessment, etc.