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Insight Timer CEO Upset With Apple's Abrupt Enforcement of App Store Rules [Updated]

MacProFCP said:
Sorry Apple but it seems there will never be a time the public, your user-base, takes your side on this one.

Seriously, you need to know when enough is enough.

I give this… ah… one week before Timmy relents.
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I take Apple's side on this one. It's an easy case.

...and the "public" is not Apple's user base. Apple's user base is Apple's user base.
 
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deepspacecowboy said:
Makes you wonder. If they’re this desperate to nickel and dime their users and developers, it tells me their hardware sales aren’t quite what they used to be.

Personally I think I’m going to move to Android and Windows when it comes time to upgrade. I’ve been an Apple guy for over 40 years but I’m so disgusted by them these days. The greed is nauseating. And I’ve completely lost respect for them as a company. They’re so hypocritical especially when it comes to China. It’s gross. It wouldn’t bother me if they just kept their mouths shut and did business but the constant moralizing is tiresome, made only worse by their naked hypocrisy when China says “jump”. I just don’t respect Apple at all these days.
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I don’t blame you. Apple customers have been more than loyal but that loyalty and respect is eroding.
 
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Timo_Existencia said:
I take Apple's side on this one. It's an easy case.

...and the "public" is not Apple's user base. Apple's user base is Apple's user base.
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1. You believe it’s fair for Apple to take 30% of tips because they arbitrarily defined a class as digital content instead of a lesson? If Apple took 30% of everything, I understand, but Apple claims not to charge commission on tips. Just because the teacher has more than one student doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a tip.

2. I specifically mentioned the public which is the user-base. Not the general public.
 
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MacProFCP said:
1. You believe it’s fair for Apple to take 30% of tips because they arbitrarily defined a class as digital content instead of a lesson? If Apple took 30% of everything, I understand, but Apple claims not to charge commission on tips. Just because the teacher has more than one student doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a tip.

2. I specifically mentioned the public which is the user-base. Not the general public.
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There is no cogent argument that this is not digital content. None. This is pure digital content. The Company is trying to avoid charging fees for their classes, so they call it tips. But digital content is any content that can be duplicated digitally and delivered to an unlimited amount of users. This is digital content all day long. Just compare a yoga class in real life to a yoga class streamed through this app to a million viewers. One is digital, one is not.

This guy tried to compare that to me renting out my home on airbnb. If I could rent my airbnb to a million guests every night, instead of just 1, then he might have an argument. But it's not even close to an argument.

Fascinates me that so many of you have fallen for the sob story.
 
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Insight can always build their own website for customers to access and withdraw from the App Store altogether, surely? Another whinging developer using someone else’s platform to profit and complaining about the costs. Turn it off mate, you won’t pay a thing.
 
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Timo_Existencia said:
There is no cogent argument that this is not digital content. None. This is pure digital content. The Company is trying to avoid charging fees for their classes, so they call it tips. But digital content is any content that can be duplicated digitally and delivered to an unlimited amount of users. This is digital content all day long. Just compare a yoga class in real life to a yoga class streamed through this app to a million viewers. One is digital, one is not.

This guy tried to compare that to me renting out my home on airbnb. If I could rent my airbnb to a million guests every night, instead of just 1, then he might have an argument. But it's not even close to an argument.

Fascinates me that so many of you have fallen for the sob story.
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Seems from the article that the cost of the class, mandatory through the app, is subject to the fee. The optional tip is what the argument is over. If it’s 1. optional, 2. has not set amount and 3. is going to an individual, not a company, that is a tip. Period.
 
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MacProFCP said:
Seems from the article that the cost of the class, mandatory through the app, is subject to the fee. The optional tip is what the argument is over. If it’s 1. optional, 2. has not set amount and 3. is going to an individual, not a company, that is a tip. Period.
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Many classes (most?) are free on the app. But, if you read the comments under this guys post at Linkedin, you'll see many teachers saying the tips are how they earn their living. Which means to them it is a business. So charge a fee for the class and be upfront about what you're doing. But trying to skirt the fees by not charging for classes and accepting tips is disingenous.

And why should Apple provide a platform that provides no-cost revenue to a business?
 
For those of you who say Apple is providing no value...but then whining that Apple isn't giving it away for free...don't you see the huge contradiction in your statement? Insight Timer has a web site. They could build their entire platform there and completely avoid anything to do with Apple. So why don't they?

...they don't because running their business through an IOS Apple App on the IOS App store provides them VALUE. If it didn't we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Everything that Insight Timer does on their App they can do on their web site.
 
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Timo_Existencia said:
So, you think it should be zero?
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Pretty much, yes.

If you break down all the costs of providing these yoga classes on mobile computing devices,
- renting and/or fitting out and decorating the studio
- providing filming/recording equipment
- recording the event and hosting or streaming it online
…Apple is in no way adding value even near 30% of app/tips.

Timo_Existencia said:
you'll see many teachers saying the tips are how they earn their livings. Which means to them it is a business
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So?

If I have a video call with my lawyer or tax or investment advisor (whom I pay), should Apple charge a 30% commission on them? The app isn’t doing anything fundamentally different, is it?
 
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AppliedMicro said:
Pretty much, yes.

If you break down all the costs of providing these yoga classes on mobile computing devices,
- renting and/or fitting out and decorating the studio
- providing filming/recording equipment
- recording the event and hosting or streaming it online
…Apple is in no way adding value even near 30% of app/tips.


So?

If I have a video call with my lawyer or tax or investment advisor (whom I pay), should Apple charge a 30% commission on them? The app isn’t doing anything fundamentally different, is it?
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So...Insight Timer can run their entire business through their web site. Their customers can open Safari and get all the same content for free. They can charge customers there directly. No Apple fees required at all.

So why don't they do that? Why do they prefer to do it in an App on the IOS App store?

Because they get value there. And if they're getting value there, Apple should get a cut.
 
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falainber said:
Was it a sarcasm? Don't we all want to have separate phones for Messaging, Netflix, YouTube, Meditation and whatever else we do with out phones? It looks like some Apple fans would be fine with that. They never use services or apps that are not from Apple anyways, right?
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A 'platform' can be a web site. Is a web site. Amazon has a platform. It's called Amazon.com. Insight Timer has a platform, it's called insighttimer.com. They already have a platform, on which they can do everything they do on their IOS App. With no need to pay Apple anything. They can reach their customers on an iPhone through the web browser.

I use a lot of companies that don't sell to me through an App. I use their platform, otherwise known as a web site.
 
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Timo_Existencia said:
A 'platform' can be a web site. Is a web site. Amazon has a platform. It's called Amazon.com. Insight Timer has a platform, it's called insighttimer.com. They already have a platform, on which they can do everything they do on their IOS App. With no need to pay Apple anything. They can reach their customers on an iPhone through the web browser.

I use a lot of companies that don't sell to me through an App. I use their platform, otherwise known as a web site.
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You do know what a huge difference is between a web site and an app, right? How do you prefer to use, say, Netflix, on your phone: go to their website or use their native app? Besides, if you use an iPhone, there is a good chance that Safari will screw up the website ;)
 
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falainber said:
You do know what a huge difference is between a web site and an app, right? How do you prefer to use, say, Netflix, on your phone: go to their website or use their native app? Besides, if you use an iPhone, there is a good chance that Safari will screw up the website ;)
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In other words, an App provides more VALUE?

Exactly. And that which provides value is worth paying for.
 
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It gets better...

Insight Timer charges $60 year for a subscription.

50% of this goes directly to Insight Timer, and 50% is distributed to content providers based on play counts. So, off the top, Insight Timer is taking 50% of the fees generated by the app. Apple only takes 30%.

Using the same argument that many of you are using, he must be GREEDY!!!! What value is he providing to these content providers? They should be able to use the site for free!

I mean, they paid for the studio, lighting, video production, training.

Right?

I mean, he built an app, using Apple's software, hosted on Apple's platform, selling direclty to Apple's customers, using Apple's secure payment system. What value has he brought that he deserves 50% of the fees that subscribers pay to see content given for free by content producers?

(or, if it's OK for Insight Timer to take 50% cut of the subscription fees, then it's clearly ok for Apple to take 30%).
 
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It's only a matter of time before all activity like this is banned. Nothing like this would ever be accepted on desktop computers or laptops, but somehow it's acceptable on pocket computers.

Apple is just trying to rake in for as long as they can. The ride will end at some point. EU started it, its still has ways to go, but it will eventually get here as well.
 
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