Intel Expecting Apple to Transition to Custom ARM-Based Chips Starting in 2020

[Unregistered 4U]

The new Mac Pro has taken an unusually long time to be announced and shipped.

Only made it this far through your text and this is exactly the same thought I’ve had

The ARM chip on its own wouldn't compete with high end Intel processors

Even though, performance per watt, Apple IS beating everyone, that’s admittedly benchmark performance. In reality, Apple CPU’s ONLY have to run macOS or iOS. And, if Apple designs their CPU’s to perform certain highly used macOS functions quickly, then it would always outperform the “generic” Intel processor that’s not tuned to run macOS as well.

 

[rpe33]

FINALLY! Apple can now update their Mac line much more consistently instead of waiting for Intel. Looking forward to this!

 

[EdwardC]

Good point. However, I can’t help but think that Apple could build a best-of-all-world’s platform by having a kick-butt ARM that has an x86 ‘co-processor’. Imagine if a Mac could run ARM-based apps at full speed, taking advantage of the incredible capabilities of that platform, then seamlessly multitask with x86 apps... also running at native speeds.

I can see Apple putting an ARM chip as a secondary processor to the Intel to permit offloading iOS apps.

Not being a chip engineer... and I wrong to think this?

My first Mac in ‘95 had a Motorola Power PC as well as a 486 DX2 50 MHz processor. You could boot System 7 or Windows 3.10. Seems like something similar could happen today.

 

[thunng8]

Keep in mind they said:

...are already more powerful than many Intel chips...​

Given Intel makes a lot of different chips with different power / performance / heat / etc requirements I'm sure the ARM processors in the iPhone and iPads are faster than some of them. Though I'm not sure I would say they're faster than many of them.

I also want to know what they're faster at. I don't want to hear Geekbench for an answer. I want real world tasks that are CPU intensive.

Here you go:

https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/new-ipad-pro-2018-129-inch

I can confirm the ipad pro being faster in Lightroom. It is about 2X faster than my 2017 Macbook Pro (13" i5).

Also Civilization VI also runs significantly smother as well.

 

[cmaier]

I'm old enough to remember when Steve was on stage saying over and over again how much faster PPC was than Intel.

NARRATOR

"It wasn't."

Well, for a moment it was...

And there was the Exponential x704. I was the floating point designer on that., It was pretty fast and ran at around 2x the clock of intel at the time.

 

[Glockworkorange]

There may be important differences not at the CPU level, but at the motherboard level. Windows/macOS on Intel both have their motherboards configured broadly the same. Apple and MS are likely not communicating on their ARM designs, so the ARM macOS motherboard may do things in a way that’s different enough such that doesn’t make a BootCamp solution easy.

That explanation makes sense; however, I can't imagine Apple not taking this into account when the switch is made.

Personally, I've never run Bootcamp and my experience with virtualization is really quite limited, but I know many others, especially on this forum, need access to Windows to make a living.

 

[PlanetExp]

My only concern with this is will this change still allow us to run Boot Camp and Parallels Desktop on ARM based Macs?

According to this https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/ yes. But that’s if they use today’s chips, which is not likely, who knows what Apple got in their R&D department. Might be tougher than ever to build a hackintosh also.

 

[Justanotherfanboy]

Well-I guess that settles it. Apple was nice for decade and a half, but an ARM will never be an i7.

How about two of them?? How about 4? 6? 8?

151mm2 - size of i7 (retail:$345-$400)
88mm2 - size of A12 (estimated cost to Apple: $30)

With another impending die shrinkage, Apple could EASILY manufacture multiprocessor units.

 

[bobdobalina]

So 2019 is the year when we all get the Mac of our dreams. Then 2020 will be the year they change the architecture. At least someone at Apple has a sense of humor.

 

[cmaier]

How about two of them?? How about 4? 6? 8?

151mm2 - size of i7 (retail:$345-$400)
88mm2 - size of A12 (estimated cost to Apple: $30)

With another impending die shrinkage, Apple could EASILY manufacture multiprocessor units.

Or shove a hella big cache on there, deeper TLBs, etc etc
[doublepost=1550804764][/doublepost]

So 2019 is the year when we all get the Macs of our dreams. Then 2020 will be the year they change the architecture. At least someone at Apple has a sense of humor.

The mac of my dreams has a different architecture. So win win.

 

[bobdobalina]

Or shove a hella big cache on there, deeper TLBs, etc etc
[doublepost=1550804764][/doublepost]
The mac of my dreams has a different architecture. So win win.

I get that. But will it be win win in year one of that change? Year two, three? There are going to be a lot of inevitable hiccups when that happens. Not saying change is bad, but that's a big change.

 

[scoobs69]

Whats so impressive about an i7? I bought a brand new iMac last summer with one and it feels more sluggish than my 2013 and has more issues. In the past, a 3+ year gap between computers was a wayyy bigger upgrade

Must be Apple. I have an 8-core i7 7820x in my custom built machine, and it flies like the wind. But it's not a Mac.

My 2013 Mac Pro is still chugging along, but it's dog slow for any productivity work now... which is why I migrated to custom built 8-core workstation.

 

[cmaier]

I get that. But will it be win win in year one of that change? Year two, three? There are going to be a lot of inevitable hiccups when that happens. Not saying change is bad, but that's a big change.

For me it will. I use office, Xcode, and a few apps like Tweetbot and reeder that will likely be ported (or will at least run fine as iOS marzipan apps). I am assuming that creative cloud will also be ported, and i use that a few times a month. Your mileage will undoubtedly vary.

 

[thomsonr]

My only concern with this is will this change still allow us to run Boot Camp and Parallels Desktop on ARM based Macs?

I would bet it would be extremely slow. I'd hate to abandon Apple but their prices here in Canada and things like this are starting to make me think about a transition back to Microsoft (shudder).

 

[MichaelDT]

According to this https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/ yes. But that’s if they use today’s chips, which is not likely, who knows what Apple got in their R&D department. Might be tougher than ever to build a hackintosh also.

Windows on ARM defeats the whole point because there are no good Win32 apps for ARM, the whole reason people boot into Windows. None of the normal apps you expect to run will run. If they do a full transition to ARM, this will be the end of the platform. Real pro users will drop the brand, they will get the reputation of a useless toys for marketing types. Eventually market share will shrink back to 3% and Apple will cancel the Mac to focus on more profitable iPhones. This will be an idiotic self inflicted wound.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

How about two of them?? How about 4? 6? 8?

151mm2 - size of i7 (retail:$345-$400)
88mm2 - size of A12 (estimated cost to Apple: $30)

With another impending die shrinkage, Apple could EASILY manufacture multiprocessor units.

And how big will that logic-board get at that rate? Better yet, how big a heatsink will it need? All speculation based on...? Don't really care-but Apple can prove me wrong then I'll explore spending the money, not you. Everyone's got an opinion-and yours is not mine. I chose the lesser of my processor to compare-but if you'd like we can compare to my Xeons.

BTW, 8x$30=$240 and it would cover an entire logic board, mostly. Nice use of Apple pricing on one and retail pricing on the other.

 

[aliensporebomb]

Doesn't anyone remember the PPC to Intel transition and how disruptive and awful it was? And what about x86 compatibility?

The ARM version of windows doesn't run everything and doesn't always run it as well as an actual
x86 architecture chip. Emulation always has a price to pay.

People who got these things to run both Mac software and Windows based applications might
find out they're in for a rough road.

Everyone seems to think this is going to get them cheaper faster Macs but Apple isn't in the practice of lowering prices and they have to pay for this development somehow.

I know at least a few who are saying their current machine are their last Macs if they go through with this.

Also, all apps you ran before will need to be replaced with a new cross-compiled version to run at full speed. People go "I'll get the new version and I'll be back up and running." Developers charge for this and you will need to factor in price of upgrade costs in addition to new hardware.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

You're thinking exactly what I'm thinking, but the price would be prohibitive. Imagine if they build Macs that had both Intel and ARM-based processors, and ran OS X and iOS simultaneously. Wicked engineering, but I think it could be possible. Computers need to be completely rethought, so why not?

I think by Apple making their own SOCs, they can be cheaper than by buying premium chips from Intel, and AMD would probably be able to do custom for fairly cheap—they make console APUs for cheap.

 

[jaylenko]

Well-I guess that settles it. Apple was nice for decade and a half, but an ARM will never be an i7.

Except that they are already beating year old i7's. It's ridiculous I know but the benchmarks speak for themselves:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.ipho...tel-core-i7-chip-last-year-geekbench.html/amp

 

[cmaier]

Doesn't anyone remember the PPC to Intel transition and how disruptive and awful it was? And what about x86 compatibility?

The ARM version of windows doesn't run everything and doesn't always run it as well as an actual
x86 architecture chip. Emulation always has a price to pay.

People who got these things to run both Mac software and Windows based applications might
find out they're in for a rough road.

Everyone seems to think this is going to get them cheaper faster Macs but Apple isn't in the practice of lowering prices and they have to pay for this development somehow.

I know at least a few who are saying their current machine are their last Macs if they go through with this.

Also, all apps you ran before will need to be replaced with a new cross-compiled version to run at full speed. People go "I'll get the new version and I'll be back up and running." Developers charge for this and you will need to factor in price of upgrade costs in addition to new hardware.

PPC to intel was a very smooth transition and saved the company.

 

[ipponrg]

I think by Apple making their own SOCs, they can be cheaper than by buying premium chips from Intel, and AMD would probably be able to do custom for fairly cheap—they make console APUs for cheap.

I don’t think they will lower prices for consumers after building their own SoC.

 

[Ramchi]

If PC world adopts something on the similar lines people may like this move from Otherwise Apple will be back to PowerPC days where everyone appreciates, applaud their products but seldom buy theirs products! But there are good and bad in the move like always

 

[msp3]

My only concern with this is will this change still allow us to run Boot Camp and Parallels Desktop on ARM based Macs?

The irony of course, if that Apple isn't the only one thinking of jumping ship from Intel/x86. Microsoft of all people is giving this another go with the 2nd gen Windows on ARM. So if it pans out (the 1st time they did with Windows RT it didn't), you will very likely still have Windows for Mac either through something like Boot Camp or virtualization... Microsoft itself actually owns Virtual PC For Mac for those of us old enough to remember emulating x86 on PowerPC

 

[radiologyman]

According to rumors, transition to ARM will be over several years, starting with low power devices, giving diehards opportunity to get an Intel machine that will be powerful enough for foreseeable future. Mobile and low power devices is the future where ARM will shine, including car electronics and home automation

 

[cmaier]

If PC world adopts something on the similar lines people may like this move from Otherwise Apple will be back to PowerPC days where everyone appreciates, appluau their products but seldom buy theirs products! But there are good and bad in the move like always

People don’t buy macs so they can run windows. Almost nobody does it.